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United flight canceled after upset pilot refuses to fly
Posturing before the inevitable next round of furloughs and pay cuts, United ALPA is bringing management to their knees by refusing to wear their hats.
United flight canceled after upset pilot refuses to fly By Roger Yu, USA TODAY United canceled a flight from Salt Lake City Thursday afternoon after the pilot announced to passengers that he was too upset to fly, according to one passenger on board. The pilot, who may have been involved in a labor-related dispute with colleagues, said that he didn't feel he could fly safely, said Paul Jacobson, an energy company executive who was aboard United Flight 416 to Denver... David Kelly, a spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents United pilots, said the union won't comment on the incident. The Federal Aviation Administration says it's up to the airlines to determine when and how pilots can walk away from the cockpit if they feel unfit to fly. "But we'd expect that if the pilots aren't fit to fly, they would not fly," said FAA spokeswoman Alison Duquette. Jacobson said he saw the pilot in a heated cellphone conversation at the gate before he boarded, and overheard the pilot saying that "he was going to complain to the union." After the passengers were seated, the pilot made his announcement. "I'm roughly paraphrasing here, but the pilot came on the PA and said, 'some of you may have witnessed an incident I was involved in at the gate. I'm not going to go into the details, but it was an interpersonal confrontation that upset me significantly to the point where I'm not focused enough to fly you to Denver. I feel like I may not be calmed and focused enough to fly to Denver for another hour,' " Jacobson said. The passengers reacted to the pilot's announcement with a collective groan. "I'm going to give him credit for standing in front of people and saying that," Jacobson added. "Still it was a very unusual situation."... Jacobson said another passenger questioned the crew and that passenger told him the incident stemmed from crewmembers from another United flight observing the pilot wearing his hat. United's pilots union has been urging pilots to remove their hats when they "are likely to be viewed by management," as a form of protest, according to a notice on ALPA's website. "In the concourse, on the jetway, wherever. Show solidarity with your fellow pilots, show management our solidarity. Don't wear your hat," it says... |
Thanks for that.... USA TODAY is doing a better job of covering this than AP.
Doubt UA will do anything (even if they can) to discipline someone who was, effectively, (if the report is accurate) being ragged by union members for appearing pro-management. I assume (hope) ALPA will smooth things over between the pilots, if pilots are allowed firearms in the cockpit, the last thing we need is to have them PO'd at each other. |
He's got Kudos ! Many of us dream about having those sort of balls. Then again it is the old US of A. Where potential litigation and unions give him a huge safetly net.
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I would like to think we would all do it, I would :eek:
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Kudos for the Captain... if he feels unfit for flight... don't take the flight!
Though … the consequences for his feat? Likelihood of aircraft incident??? non existent. Likelihood certificate action??? none… Odds of company castigation??? I would say a pretty good shot… Probability of ALPA supporting this pilot??? NONE! |
Is it just me or is there a need for proper punctuation here?
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The Trident crash at Staines springs to mind.
I take my hat off to this Captain who had the guts to do what he knew was right. |
Hmmm, seems to me that the chief pilot should send a note to the finance department to the effect of...deduct a days pay for this guy.
And then suspend him for three more...without pay. Don't want to work? Goodbye. Plenty more where this malcontent pilot came from. ALPO is no better...just a bunch of spoiled brats. Collectively, pilots had better get used to changing conditions, for it ain't going to get better, anytime soon. |
Hmmm… fines, penalties, and suspensions imposed by the D/O or Chief Pilot as such are knee jerk reactions… reminiscent of the lynch jobs of the Wild West… you know… a hanging without a proper trial and testimony from all those involved with the incident.
I would like to think that no D/O or Chief Pilot worth their salt would suspend any of his/her pilots without consideration of all the facts. |
I find the "ignore button" works wonders for the likes of 411a.:yuk:
To miss-quote someone.........." Never let the truth get in the way of a knee jerk reaction!" |
:D:ok: to the pilot.
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If you dont feel up to flying DONT DO IT its part of basic training.
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Wus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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All though I applaud his honesty; since he had been seen and heard in a an argumentbut I think it was more damage control for himself and his company.
I would like to think that a pilot can put aside his personal issues for a few hours and do the job he has been trained to do. This is part of being a professional. If the avg. Joe didn't fly when he was upset at something then we'd never have an airplane in the sky! |
I find the "ignore button" works wonders for the likes of 411a. This user is on your Ignore List. |
Ringgg, ringgg.
"Hullo" "Captain X ?" "Yes" "This is R.Sole from the union" "Sorry don't have time to talk now, my flight is boarding" Click. Have your hissy fits in private, not in front of the CUSTOMERS. Or a meringue ? |
Paper Tiger -
Spot on. Unions sometimes forget who is paying them. |
411a:
Don't want to work? Goodbye. Plenty more where this malcontent pilot came from. ALPO is no better...just a bunch of spoiled brats. No wonder your contributions are put on auto-ignore. For the record, I like Paper Tiger's scenario. BTDT. I've also got off a flight or two over the past 35 years which, through circumstances quite familiar to all line pilots, I wasn't fit to fly because my passengers' welfare came first and not my company's concerns over scheduling, aircraft routing or management's concerns over the actions of "another prima-donna pilot" as is the attitude succinctly expressed in your words. Judgement within this forum is as swift as the lifetime of a Higg's particle but aviation human factors and particularly SMS requires, especially of management as SMS is implemented, precisely the opposite, where judgement is suspended in favour of curiosity at least until the facts are comprehended and can be dealt with intelligently. What does, "Goodbye" contribute to the dialogue? How does such an approach further SMS within your organization especially in the face of what appears to be a significant and responsible aviator's decision on flight safety? Regardless of genesis, for the two must be separated as almost all have done here, the Captain made the correct choice even though he may be considering that genesis privately and perhaps envisioning alternative strategies to avoid such confrontations next time. These are issues about which pilots are passionate - the same passion in terms of exactitude that keeps their passengers safe. Consider the statement offered and observe how it has not carried the dialogue on safety anywhere, but has instead turned it inwards when the opposite is required by all, to implement SMS well at major and small carriers alike. |
I can only relate to this from a human standpoint.
I'm reminded of the beginning of road rage. It comes on suddenly when perrhaps somebody cuts you off and then begins to harass you. One needs to detox your own emotions, if its difficult, then pull off the road. The pilot did the right thing. What caused it is the problem. We (the reader) can support the solution, but we can't really solve the originating problem. |
Professional pilot
Blue320,
I think the pilot concerned was being very professional. No matter what the cause, how major or minor the argument was, If he felt he was not fit to fly, then he made the correct decision. Is that not what our medical certificates are based on? Self evaluation? 411A, I hope the next time I have a disagreement with the wife, nearly get taken out by some idiot on the road on the way to work and then find out that my leave is cancelled and I then go flying, that you and your family are in the back. Feel safe?? |
Hat's off to that pilot. I'd like to think that I'd cancel out if unable to concentrate 100% on the flight. Can be tough enough of a situation to cancel if feeling a bit sick or for tech reasons, but to call a stop to the flight over psychological reasons and then make that statement to all and sundry. I'd like to think that I'd make the right decision... but would I? Would you?
Temptation to get the right seat to run things until I could get my head together would not be insignificant...... |
Congrats on having the balls to do that. Personally I think I would've taken a few minutes to myself, maybe delay the flight a few minutes, and let my FO take that leg once I regrouped. That's got to be a weird PA to give to your pax.
rcl |
Maybe I'm completly off the mark, but let me recapitulate:
-The guy refuses to follow the union's action not to wear a hat. -Then the guy gets confronted with guys who follow the union. -The guy gets upset. -The guy gets so much upset that he cannot fly anymore, much to the damage of the company he was so strongly affected to. -Then the guy gets into an argument with the company. -Then the guy says "I will call the union". Is that the same union he refused to follow the guideline? As I said, maybe I don't see clearly, but if you ask me, this guy has a mess in his head. Obviously his personal judgement was good enough to give a speech in front of the customer. Why is he not able to fly? I guess there is another point there - hidden agenda. Dani |
I cant agree with 411a on this.
Pilots must stand down if they are emotionally upset prior to taking a flight.Someone mentioned Staines and Dryden was also a case in point.Safety is paramount and an emotional upset leads to distraction which can have grave consequences.A good CP will always back his pilots 100% if their decisions were made on the grounds of safety.No questions asked. |
As a regular contributer to the Middle East forum as 411a is, and as someone who talks through his ar$e most of the time, I now but have to agree with him.
Emotions and other causes should be dealt with before sign-on. Not during boarding. I don't know what this fellow said or had to say during the boarding of the PAX on his cell-phone, but that is unprofessional in it's self. Any issues should be dealt with prior to sign-on. If not stand-down An emotional halas |
Fully brhind the decision not to fly.
If you feel you cannot do the job and give due concern to your passengers and crew, then Do Not Fly. It goes above your lack of paperwork, your lack of trouble, your pay, your job, your ease of career. Better a planeload of annoyed pax gathered at the gate than a meeting with no tea and biccies over a pranged plane, or worse.... |
halas
Disagree. Vehemently. What caused the upset is absolutely irrelevant to the decision NoGo. Commanders make the call, given conditions instant. What somebody "should have done to prevent the cause of upset" is crap until debrief and a better way to handle prior issues is addressed. This is a narrow command call. Subject to judgment? Probably. Correct?
BY DEFINITION. |
Totally agree with the above. Only he knows his true state of mind, and only he can make the decision. It may have been a ridiculous matter to begin with, but he did the right thing, in my book.
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SLF here. While I agree that it's responsible to step aside when you know you should not be flying...
(a) There are two people on the flight deck, and the calm one is qualified to drive the a/c to its destination while Capt Upset cools down. (b) This is not Egypt Air, where the primary goal is to off oneself and to Hades with the pax. (c) It was a short flight, not a milk run thru short runways in the mountains. |
RiverCity;
Thank you for identifying yourself as "SLF" - I don't like the term because it's "SLF's", you, that pay our salary, but there it is - fought it and it stays..:) WRT your 3 points -to varying degrees, b perhaps being the most rare and extreme "justification" to press on, yes, from the passengers' point of view those may be perceptive and valid points - in fact, we could go so far as to say, that is what our long-established SOPs for crew member incapacitation are for, but, no, none of the points count from a professional airman's pov. The last SOP for example, is an emergency reponse and not a daily operational procedure intended to deal with pre-departure events and occurences. Yes it can be done - but it is demonstrably poor risk management and, as so often can occur when one thing lines up and then another, can place the flight and ultimately the organization at risk. Accident literature is full of exactly this kind of story. Among the miriad of daily operational scenarios which come your aircrews and airline managements alike in the 35,000+ daily flights over the US alone, this is exactly the kind of safety response that is required of individual employees working under SMS, and especially crew members. If management cannot support a decision such as this made by one of their Captains then their SMS safety culture requires re-examination. In the previous post, I obliquely referred to the fact that crew members continually self-assess, self-criticize (relentlessly, it seems). Any crew member involved in an out-of-the-ordinary event will replay it over and over, seeking learning, improvement and the best response for the next time - it is the nature of the work and of the profession, something which is incomprehensible to bean counters and many hand-maidens to those focussed only on the bottom line and who have long-since checked their aviator's hat at the door to management. SMS is a key strategy, but there are a number of threads on PPRuNe discussing this very approach to organizational safety as the regulator steps back to take an "oversight" role. |
RiverCity
You miss my point, and revert to "confusion default". This is a command decision, the flight deck is not a democracy. I am generally a good deal more long-winded, but again, this was a command decision. End of story.
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PJ2 --
Thanks for the informative and reasoned response. Again, I go with knowing when it's time to fly and when it's time to step aside and cool down. I presented them as thoughts to see how they went over with the people in the pointy end. The view in that section of the plane is often far different than those of us closer to the back lavs. |
I too live in River City
And may have been hasty and seemingly dismissive. If you "go with knowing when to fly" and "knowing when to step aside and cool down" you'd be a fine pilot. Just so you know that if the Captain is "stepping aside", then the trip won't fly, it wants two fully qual, aviators in the pointy end. Used to be more than two, but I'm old.
rgds. Airfoil (Travel to White Haven often, familiar?) |
I take the White Haven road occasionally out to a friend's house at Penn Lake. Used to work at Sikorsky Aircraft, knew Igor, but never been in one of the products.
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RiverCity
(a) There are two people on the flight deck, and the calm one is qualified to drive the a/c to its destination while Capt Upset cools down. (b) This is not Egypt Air, where the primary goal is to off oneself and to Hades with the pax. (c) It was a short flight, not a milk run thru short runways in the mountains. Because you need two fully fit pilots on normal operation , no matter who is PF, in fact I find that PNF can be much more demanding, specially on short flights. I can only but support this proffesional since he went for the safer option.:D |
eagle--
RiverCity here. I had three thoughts, but one primary statement which overshadowed the rest: I agree that it's responsible to step aside when you know you should not be flying. The others were merely points of argument that you might find in the imaginary discussion forum when an SLF meets some pilots. Like, here. |
Although this pilot seems like a hero to many of you, quitting a flight minutes before it is scheduled to depart full of paying customers is very bad form. In any other industry histrionics like this would result in immediate termination. Either he's an emotional basket case or he's playing some sort of game.
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Anger management
He was right for not flying if he thought he was not fit to fly.
But, he is responsible for not preventing the event (hanging up the phone,etc.) that made him upset. And he is responsible for not controlling his temper. If not, this situation could happen again. He is going to need to learn some anger management. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, 'coz I may well be.
Upset over a hat? Paxload inconvenienced over a hat????? I must be missing something. Sure hope I am. |
CR2
You are missing something, how much, time will tell. The story's just begun.
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