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Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap
FAA Is Checking Whether Flight Crew Fell Asleep
We've heard about airline pilots falling asleep in flight before, but this report is even stranger than usual -- it was 9 o'clock in the morning, and the flight was a 45-minute hop from Honolulu to Hilo. Local TV station KGMB9 said it obtained a radar track of the flight, which showed it stayed at 21,000 feet and flew past the Hilo airport about 15 miles out to sea before turning around and returning to descend. The FAA confirmed that it is checking into the incident. Air traffic controllers reportedly tried to contact the pilots for 25 minutes and got no response. The airplane, operated by Go! Airlines, landed without incident. Pilot fatigue has been a growing concern among safety advocates. The NTSB said recently that it has found at least six flights where pilots fell asleep at the controls, including one in which both pilots nodded off on a Frontier Airlines flight from Washington to Denver in 2004. The safety board named pilot fatigue as one of its "most wanted" list of needed safety improvements. |
this report is even stranger than usual -- it was 9 o'clock in the morning, |
<<Not strange if they were on duty all night>>
If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately. |
Just remind us again how many breaks you get in your shift HD?
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If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately. It's one thing to be "legal" but quite another to be fit to fly with respect to fatigue. |
Absolutely correct! Yes, there are regulations in place, but you could still face being sent to the other part of the globe without adequate rest before and after that flight, your circadian rhythm out of sync, the hotel noisy and check-in less than 10h away.
Long range flying is only one aspect. Fatigue happens to all of us and it is a potential killer. Nobody can tell me that you'll perform 100% at 5 am when something in your airplane unexpectedly (as always) goes south. I know that it is even harder to shoot a challenging approach after a long day and then facing bad WX, a relatively short runway etc. I'm thinking for example of the Iberia guys who 'scratched' their A340 the other day... Being allowed to take so-called 'strategic naps' of 15-20 minutes really makes a difference and should be used, whenever necessary. Authorities first become interested when something went wrong and the operators won't do a thing when it costs money - these are the facts.:( |
heathrow director
you are in a relatively comfortable seat, breathing 8000 foot oxygen, and the sun is shining in your cockpit making it warm. you can't move, that breaks the regs. you fall asleep if you haven't gotten a good nights sleep that's ap ilots lot an emergency room doctor is moving between patients every few minutes, breathing the same oxygen as where he lives. he looks people in the eye and doesn't focus at infinity. they are very different animals. |
lol!! pprune all over..
Post 1 - reports an incident. Post 2 - supposition as to cause Post 3 - has a pop at Poster of Post 2 Posts thereafter all are written as if the supposition in Post 2 is hard fact along with pops at poster 3. Classic! |
Extended holding pattern?
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"If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately."
Years ago (early 80's) I flew PA 31's out of Kidlington. I recall a couple of controllers from LHR flew for an air charter company there too. In speaking to one he routinely used to say that after/before flying a full dat at Oxford, he had a full shift at LHR ATC. I was always impressed at how he managed to be up for 24 hours straight doing two jobs! |
IMHO fatigue is every bit as dangerous and far and away more prevelant on the flight-deck than alcohol... though being a less sexy subject fails to get the deserved attention...
Heathrow Directors comments about managing ones life-style are for the most part utter nonsence... our bodies cannot be ordered by the ops dept to sleep at pre-programmed hours... or to get the type of sleep needed to refresh our minds sufficiently. Without resorting to drugs many people (myself inc) find it difficult or impossible to sleep during the day and after a series of 4/5 or 6 sector days with 11 hr turnarounds in foreign hotels most of us are operating below par... Try telling a hotel that you don't need the raucous racket of 3 hotel maids laughing and vacuuming the other side of your door at 9am and they'll think you're mad. Eventually I chucked airline work simply because I couldn't take any more crap schedules. Many do not have the luxury of choice. I believe that the US FLTs are less generous than the Europeans' ... but the Airline lobby is hugely powerful in the land where the buck rules all. |
I'm one of your SLF members and saw this news story earlier today on another (non-aviation) forum I visit.
The first thing that came to mind is a question: I understand exactly what sevenstrokeroll is saying about the flight deck being a comfortable, warm place if you're tired. However, how realistic is it to get that drowsy on a route with a total flight time of 29 minutes. My (uninformed, amateur) impression is that this sort of route would be pretty busy from beginning to end and I'd have thought that drowsiness would be much more likely on much longer sectors. The analogy I gave my wife was that a driver is much more likely to get drowsy at the wheel on a long boring highway than on a short hop in town. Was I wrong? Bobbsy |
Even a short flight can have pitfalls if it involves a task the pilot is very familiar with,or if hes just starting night shifts after a few days of early starts. No matter how good your management of your time is, if you've gotten used to waking up at 6 am, you wont wake up at 6 pm the next evening.
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I have done both jobs, 6 years as a Controller, and I have been flying long haul for 5 years. Heathrow Director, honestly, you have no idea about the level of fatigue endured by long haul pilots. Can't speak for short haul, I suspect it is a different kind of tiredness.
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8 hours block to block
Right on the money Huck!
8 hours has been the gold standard for years by management and the FAA for a restful overnight for crews. Considering it takes 30 minutes to get to the hotel bus after completing your postflight duties, 30 minutes transit time and check in, if your like me I need a few minutes to relax before falling fast asleep to only:rolleyes: be awakened during your REM cycle. So now we are down to 7 hours of rest. Since most airlines require a 1 hour show time that means you have to be up minimum of one hour before your rest period ends, so now we are down to six hours of peaceful slumber. Then there is a little known requirement that most people need to eat something at least twice a day so do you go for the Kit Kat bar or the Milky Way, uhm.... Then throw in the unknown factors like waiting for another crew at the airport since the hotel is not going to send another van for them in twenty minutes, or after check in your find that some one is in your room or the key does not work. I know I'm preaching to the choir it's just very frustrating to me as well as countless bleary eyed crew members out there. And what I find amazing this stuff like this does not happen more often.:rolleyes: |
No rules for private jets
One thing that you guys probably don't realise is that there are no duty time rules for a private jet crew. And some of them are big jets !
Back to back flights are common in this game and duty time of 26 hours or more are not uncommon, especialy out of the middle east. You may say that surely its up to the captain to tell the owner that enough is enough ! but there are not many guys who will risk unemployment by rocking the boat. The amazing thing is that the owners are usually frightened fartless of turbulence but seem quite happy to have there crews flying ridiculous hours untill they are fit to drop ! So next time your in the hold around LHR and the TCAS looks like a swarm of flies, you can feel comforted in the knowledge that there's a chance that some exhausted private crew is sharing the same airspace. Perhaps its time that legislation took everyone into account. Sleep well.:eek: |
Got to agree with Mirabeau, I had the situation after a 9 hour flight from the middle east, put the a/c to bed, catch a cab to the hotel, check in and order some food only to get a phone call 15 mins later from the boss that he needs to go back to the middle east and can we have the aircraft ready in 2 hours !!!!.
Happens all the time to us but we have not yet had the balls to try power napping in turn so when atc is looking at all the maggots on the screen, guess which one is well rested and safe to make that approach in bad weather with g/s out so loc only etc. |
Heathrow Director...
Always used to amuse me turning up at LATCC after the night shift had finished and seeing you guys walking out with duvets blankets and pillows, thats if you did not get the e.g. before your shift had finished.... |
If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately. Such people who manage to run such perfect lives would never be able to understand how the imperfect rest of us make mistakes for reasons of fatigue or otherwise! |
It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately. As for doctors, controllers, et al: slight difference in the magnitude of the downside risk. (Have you ever heard the difference between ham and eggs? The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed....) I'll compare the relative fatigue of doctors and pilots when doctors die if their patients die. Hell, I'd settle for them losing their licenses if they make a fatal mistake. |
Huck.
You are on the right track there with some good examples! |
There is a subtle difference between being tired and being fatigued.
I can't remember exactly where the reference is stated, but the Medical profession and the UK CAA recognise it as follows: When you are tired, you are able to recognise and react to a given situation. When you are fatigued, you are often unable to recognise and nearly always unable to react to the same situation. Given the hours that pilots have to put in before and during a long haul flight, it would be interesting to know who would admit to being "tired" and "fatigued". |
In our company it's ok to have a rest in the flight deck, simple rules, one pilot at the time, advise the back end and schedule a call no more than 45min after being advise just in case the second pilot dosed off. and wake up at least 20min before TOD...but on a short flight they must have been tired before leaving....
Anyways North America has to enforce stronger rules on duty days and ban continues duty, impose restrictions on red eyes and give better protections to pilots turning down flights because of fatigue.....ALPA where are you???? BZH EX cargo driver.... |
I'll never forget finishing ATC nightshifts and, (particularly after having already worked the previous morning shift), momentarily falling asleep on the one hour drive home, not to mention driving thru red lights and stopping at green lights. That's fatigue. Meanwhile the supervisor or senior ATCs usually had the luxury of a 4 or 5 hour nap whilst 'the workers' ran the centre.
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Non-pilot speaking
bzh In our company it's ok to have a rest in the flight deck, simple rules, one pilot at the time, advise the back end and schedule a call no more than 45min after being advise just in case the second pilot dosed off. and wake up at least 20min before TOD |
Didn't waste time getting down!
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...25ZZ/PHNL/PHTO
Look at the RoD once they started down.... Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-200 (twin-jet) (CRJ2/) Origin Honolulu Intl (PHNL) Destination Hilo Intl (PHTO) Other flights between these airports Route MKK4 PULPS V21 PUMIC V15 Date Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008 Duration 29 minutes Status Arrived 8 days ago (track log) Proposed/Assigned Actual/Estimated Departure 09:29AM HST 09:25AM HST Arrival 10:06AM HST 09:54AM HST Speed 416 kts Altitude 21000 feet Time Position Ground speed Altitude Eastern TZ Latitude Longitude kts Feet 02:25PM 21.32 -157.88 160 900 02:26PM 21.27 -157.85 220 3200 02:27PM 21.22 -157.80 250 5400 02:28PM 21.20 -157.72 270 7900 02:29PM 21.20 -157.65 280 10300 02:30PM 21.18 -157.55 310 11500 02:31PM 21.17 -157.45 330 12800 02:32PM 21.15 -157.35 350 14200 02:33PM 21.15 -157.25 360 15900 02:34PM 21.12 -157.15 370 16800 02:35PM 21.07 -157.05 390 17700 02:36PM 21.02 -156.93 390 18900 02:37PM 20.97 -156.83 390 19800 02:38PM 20.92 -156.73 400 21000 02:39PM 20.87 -156.62 410 21000 02:40PM 20.80 -156.50 440 21000 02:41PM 20.75 -156.38 440 21000 02:42PM 20.68 -156.27 440 21000 02:43PM 20.63 -156.15 450 21000 02:44PM 20.57 -156.03 450 21000 02:45PM 20.52 -155.92 450 21000 02:46PM 20.45 -155.80 440 21000 02:47PM 20.40 -155.68 450 21000 02:48PM 20.33 -155.57 450 21000 02:49PM 20.28 -155.45 450 21000 02:50PM 20.23 -155.35 450 21000 02:51PM 20.15 -155.22 450 21000 02:52PM 20.03 -155.15 460 21000 02:53PM 19.92 -155.10 460 21000 02:54PM 19.80 -155.05 450 21000 02:55PM 19.70 -155.00 460 21000 02:56PM 19.57 -154.93 460 21000 02:57PM 19.45 -154.87 460 21000 02:58PM 19.33 -154.82 450 21000 02:59PM 19.22 -154.75 450 21000 03:00PM 19.13 -154.67 440 20800 03:01PM 19.18 -154.57 390 21000 03:02PM 19.30 -154.58 400 21000 03:03PM 19.42 -154.60 400 21000 03:04PM 19.52 -154.60 390 18700 03:05PM 19.62 -154.62 360 13500 03:06PM 19.72 -154.63 350 8200 03:07PM 19.78 -154.70 330 3200 03:08PM 19.75 -154.78 290 1500 03:09PM 19.73 -154.85 220 1500 03:10PM 19.72 -154.90 200 1500 03:11PM 19.72 -154.97 190 900 03:12PM 19.72 -155.02 150 200 |
Wouldn't a communication failure be a more plausable cause ?
They were on vectoring for the destination, standing by for descend, and finally realizing, this can not be right. Reselecting the right frequency, kicking the box or whatever, and then get in contact with ATC (again). Lost comm is not that unusual. |
Lost com...unlikely and if so, then why didn't they follow regs?
evidently transponder was working, no lost com squak? |
How about missed frequency change. We've all heard ATC trying to contact someone. I recall watching TOD disappear behind wondering why no clearance to descend. No answer from ATC so a check of the chart revealed we had missed a frequency change. We called on the correct frequency but were now way beyond normal TOD. We managed to persuade ATC to let us max rate descend as opposed to a hold to lose altitude!! Red faces but no harm ... no foul!!:*
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If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately. No disrespect to pilots, but having to adjust altitude, heading etc on an autopilot and changing radio frequency every now and then with the odd fuel calculation is not excatly edge of your seat stuff. So a bad nights sleep followed by an uneventful day in a flight deck will but most people to sleep. I say if you feel tired in the flight deck, turn off the autopilot, that'll keep you awake for a while.:ok: |
it would sure keep the pax awake!
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Not sure that simply switching off the a/p would have that much effect... cars don't have A/Ps and plenty of people fall asleep driving...many years back, my nights flying the Bandit ( no a/p) were plagued by fatigue... I'm someone who can't sleep a minute when travelling as SLF... whatever the time/length of trip, I'm awake... put me in front of those instruments and I begin to be hypnotised by the glow of the lights... lack of sleep..
On one occasion returning to 'Saafend' at the end of a sleepless week of night freight we arrived in the London TMA with totally cr@ap wx.. vis to mins...turbulence, icing the lot.. remember thinking "I'm going to have to stay awake for this" as we closed on the localiser.. remember thinking it again just as a hand slapped me on the shoulder as the F/O realised I was asleep ! I say again.. every bit as dangerous as alcohol and not nearly getting enough attention... |
Mungop: You are quite right, and it is very possible to fall asleep while hand flying an airplane.
To leftseatview: if your hand flying would keep passengers awake, you better turn your autopilot off more often and practice hand flying. I can imagine the new breed of regional pilot. Pay your money upfront and learn to fly, by 500 or 600 total hours you get hired at a regional airline. And they encourage you to use the autopilot. So, for every hour you log, maybe 5 minutes is hand flying. And you never get good at it. Mungop is quite right again, fatigue is not getting enough attention...and it will get some attention with the next fatigue crash. |
if your hand flying would keep passengers awake, you better turn your autopilot off more often and practice hand flying A modern autopilot can achieve a smoother ride at altitude than even the most practiced pilot can ever achieve. One of the biggest myths in aviation today is that we will lose our handling ability if we don't hand fly frequently. I use the autopilot extensively as monitoring its effectiveness is exactly the same as monitoring the other pilot's flying; my performance on check rides has not faltered as a result. Monitoring the autopilot function gives me more time to consider the options and in my experience has not contributed to fatigue a much as flying used to do when I had to hand-fly for hours on end! |
One of the biggest myths in aviation today is that we will lose our handling ability if we don't hand fly frequently |
In the USA, it is not uncommon for pilots to "commute" many hundreds of miles to their pilot base. For example, I know for a fact that there are plenty of DL pilots who still live in the suburbs of Boston even though the BOS pilots base closed years ago.
A fellow I knew well used to leave his suburban Boston home around 1130AM, head for Boston Logan, take the 1230 or 130PM shuttle to LGA, taxi to JFK in time to captain the JFK-SVO flight leaving approximately 5 PM. After 9+ hours at the controls, there's the landing at SVO at what is about 2AM body time. Mitigating factors were that there was an extra relief pilot on board, allowing the chance to catch some sleep, and the fact that he had to do this trip only 5 times a month or so. My point is that at least in the US, many pilots are traveling many hours simply to get to their cockpit! |
Coincidentally, Air Crash Investigation on the National Geographic channel today was about China Air 006, when a fatigue induced error almost caused the loss of the aircraft. The 747 FE missed a check item and it all went horribly wrong............
Think it's on again later tonight. IMHO it's well worth a look. |
manrow
I really have to agree with Huck on this one. If you don't practice, you won't be very good. You indicate the superiority of the autopilot at altitude. I really wonder how well you would do at max op alt, with the autopilot off or out of service. Maybe you would descend. Maybe you would be all over the sky. Or maybe you might hand fly to altitude, trim, set power/thrust and let go for a few seconds before engaging "george". But as Huck said, the horse has been beaten to death before. |
Three FD crew should be the norm...
First Officer looks after navigation, makes required ratio calls, keeps the plog. Flight Engineer sees to it that said First Officer stays awake to do the necessary. Captain rests (snoozes). F/O gets tired, Captain takes over and the F/O rests (snoozes). F/E gets tired, Captain keeps an eye on the FE panel, and F/E rests (snoozes). When all three are tired, the aeroplane is landed, which oddly enough, is normally at the scheduled destination. When all three are fully awake, newspapers are read and Havana's are enjoyed. Piece of cake.:} |
Except the tiny flaw with the suggestion that you turn off the A/P and hand fly, is that within RVSM airspace an A/P is required.
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