Use the pilots as scapegoats and fire them. A great contribution to the furtherment of flight safety. Well done. BTW it aint that easy {injunir}:}:= if you are tired and fly and have an incident you are [according to the FAA] careless and reckless as you should have canceled and not doing so is irresponsibilty--but if you cancel a flight due to fatigue you are irresponsible and a problem maker---:*:( |
Okay Not a airline pilot merely a light business jet one but there is another factor that needs to be taken into consideration and which may or may not give another reason for pilots nodding off.
A few years ago I was flying a Seneca Twin at FL100 single pilot with the non pilot owner in the right seat. The aircraft was on autopilot in nav mode. I was very aware of the droning of the engines which became almost hypnotic like and found that I was finding it very hard to stop my eyelids flickering next thing I knew was a sharp dig in the ribs as the owner thought I had died or something. How much research has been done on whether it is pilots falling asleep due to fatigue or design faults out of their control ie sounds or flashing lights which have hypnotic effects on the pilots. Or even light effects on clouds or sea surfaces pulsing city lights at night etc? Finally contamination in the cabin from contaminated air? It may be interesting to read this report as even low levels can cause extreme fatigue USATODAY.com - Travel - News - Verdict expected soon on toxic air aboard jets I am sure that sounds and lights at certain frequencies can have an effect and as such should absolve the pilots from guilt? Pace |
I haven't seen it discussed yet so will introduce the notion of Controlled Rest on the Flight Deck. It's in the Canadian Aviation Regulations as a legitimate technique to address fatigue. It isn't intended to replace Flight Time and Duty Day regulations although Canada's regulations were ATAC-driven at the time - a Part VII (airline, commercial ops) 3-pilot crew with an "SAE specified" bunk can remain on duty legally, for 23 hours, the "3" being "unforseen circumstances" for which there has yet to be a definition in the CARS.
The basic notion of controlled rest is to recognize that fatigue does not know about rules, and accepts that rest periods may be less than optimum from a human factors point of view. There are obviously conditions and SOPs which govern Controlled Rest such as the presence either of someone from the cabin in a two-pilot operation or a means of frequent checking if a single crew member is all the cabin has, (small ops). The industry has used 'controlled rest' unofficially for decades but it's now recognized legally in Canada. Falling asleep in the cockpit happens far more frequently than anyone with the regulator or in any airline management position will acknowledge or even know about. I've used controlled rest techniques many times for my crew on Vancouver-Sydney (via Honolulu with a day's stop) and other routes typically Hong Kong, Tokyo - Vancouver/Toronto. "Pushing back the seat" and taking twenty minutes to 'check out the overhead panel', (maximum fourty minutes or so, so that REM sleep is not entered with it's resulting grogginess), works extremely well in my experience but is not without it's controversies. The F/A's sometimes resent the monitoring duties, saying "they dont' get any break, why should we?", etc but that ignorance aside 99% of the time it works well. Pilots' unions or representative groups where there are no unions, must trade negotiating dollars for working conditions that truly ought to be supported by appropriate regulations but that battle is as old as our oldest airlines - 1929, on! Anyway, for what it's worth...anyone else use the technique? Is it effective for you? Remember, it isn't a substitute for the larger human factors issues and required regulatory support. PJ2 |
Heathrow Director, whilst I have the utmost respect for you and your colleagues having flown into Heathrow many times over my 25 year career, things have changed in the aviation world. I guess you are too out of the loop or had a career where you only had the best of things.
Try rarely sleeping in your own bed ;) a noisy hotel, trying to sleep during the day, throw in a body clock that has lost the plot, meals at odd times and then a long flight overnight in a warm cockpit with lulling white noise whilst heading east towards a bright light that is painful to look at.....just close your eyes, just for a second...just to rest them....whoah..where's that snoring noise coming from.....? |
Unfortunately there are still some dinosaur Captains out there who think it is better to continue flying when fatigued rather than taking controlled rest. I remember when an FO, having already flown a mixture of lates/earlies with minimum rest asked the Captain if they could take controlled rest during a quiet period of the flight and was severely reprimanded. The Captain said they were not paid to sleep during Company time!
If someone is suffering from fatigue they should be encouraged to tell other crew members and not feel pressured to hide it in order to toe the company bull**** line. Whilst I strongly believe no one should ever report for duty when fatigued, there is no excuse for this type of behaviour. Also in our company FTL manual, we are told if we cannot achieve adequate rest we should consult our AME, what is that supposed to mean, no Class 1 medical??:confused::confused: Horse****!!:\ |
Contaminated air
Pace,
Dead right about contaminated air. Finally contamination in the cabin from contaminated air? It may be interesting to read this report as even low levels can cause extreme fatigue
This is not rocket science and is probably one of the the worst kept secrets in aviation. DB :ok: |
" Pilots sleep through landing procedure "
This is the headline from the Original Article, NOT my headline!!!
Pilots sleep through landing procedure Two pilots who slept through their plane's landing procedure despite repeated radio calls from air traffic controllers were fired by their airline and temporarily suspended from flying. Captain Scott Oltman, 54, and First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, dozed off during the brief midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, on Hawaii. The Federal Aviation Administration suspended the men for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. Both were fired by Hawaii's Go airlines, operator of the February 13 flight which was carrying 40 passengers. Mr Oltman was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications and banned from flying for 60 days. Mr Shepley had his flying licence suspended for 45 days. Both completed their suspensions earlier this month but an FAA spokesman said he did not know if they were flying again with a different airline. The men had been given a 15 hour break before their shift, nearly double the FAA minimum. Mr Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea, a sleep disorder which can lead to extreme fatigue. An investigation found no obvious explanation for why both men fell asleep. There were no problems with the aircraft's pressurisation system or carbon monoxide levels. Over a period of 17 minutes, air traffic controllers made nearly a dozen unanswered calls to the men. In recordings obtained by The Associated Press, the controller is heard repeatedly trying to contact the pilots and speaking to the pilot of another Go flight. "I'm worried he might be in an emergency situation," the controller says. Radio contact was finally established 44 minutes into what is usually a 45-minute flight. By this time, the plane had overshot Hilo airport by 15 miles. The flight crew was ordered to return and landed safely. Source: Pilots sleep through landing procedure - Telegraph |
Just finishing a week of night freight and getting used to getting to bed at 4am.
Monday morning you guessed it, a 4 sector DAY beggining at .......4am!!!!!! |
Thunderguts - Would you do that again? Sure let him have a 15 minute nap but is it safe for us passengers to let him sleep the entire trip? I would hope that there were two pilots paying attention to their jobs up front on flights that I am on.. That's no funny story to me.
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Furthermore: The more I read these reports of sleeping and sleepy pilots, the more I think that rather than to exclude persons from the jump seat on the flight deck, acceptable persons such as an FA should be encouraged or maybe required to occupy the jump seat as often as their duties permit. Wouldn't this practice promote safety?
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@PJ2:
'..."unforseen circumstances" for which there has yet to be a definition in the CARS' Canadian Aviation Regulations, Part I, Subpart 1 - Interpretation TC defines it (rather loosely, perhaps) as follows: ' "unforeseen operational circumstance" means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator; (circonstance opérationnelle imprévue)' I realise controlled rest on the f/d isn't specifically relevant to this case, though it does address the wider issue of fatigue. Are there many other countries that allow operators to implement such a program? [First post so apologies if the links/quotes don't function] |
sleeping pilots
Todays (complete) item in the UK Daily Telegraph in the corner of the world news
Sleeping pilots Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines have been suspended for sleeping through the landing of a passenger plane between Honolulu and Hilo I knew autoland was good but.. |
Try rarely sleeping in your own bed a noisy hotel, trying to sleep during the day, throw in a body clock that has lost the plot, meals at odd times and then a long flight overnight in a warm cockpit with lulling white noise whilst heading east towards a bright light that is painful to look at.....just close your eyes, just for a second...just to rest them....whoah..where's that snoring noise coming from.....? Hawaiian Airline Route Map- Maps Of Hawaii Islands The Honolulu to Hilo flight about as far an inter-island flight you can make in Hawaii. It was a 45 minute flight, so it is surprising that both pilots fell asleep, and that the flight attendants didn't notice the Big Island passing by. Sleep apnea is a serious problem and can make people doze off unexpectedly. I am glad the pilot is aware of it now. I hope he starts using a CPAP device to avoid it, as sleep apnea can cause other medical problems by cutting off oxygen. |
Forty years ago I was a watchkeeping Radio Officer in the Merchant Navy. My firm never had a set route and consequently trips could be from three days to three months. It always took me about two weeks to settle into the watchkeeping routine (4 hours on, 8 hours off) and only a couple of days in port would mean the whole routine was lost and another two weeks to settle into the pattern again. I was pretty well totally knackered while in the settling in period. How pilots cope so well with the system (system?) they put up with amazes me almost as much as it worries me. things happen a lot slower at sea, and in the end, the ship will usually float on its own while you wake up.
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Back on duty
The BBC has reported that the two pilots have been reinstated:--
Snoozing pilots to return to work Two commercial airline pilots who fell asleep in the cockpit and overshot their landing by 15 miles have been cleared to return to work. Earlier this year, the Go! flight from Honolulu to Hilo cruised over its landing target at 21,000 feet. Alarmed air traffic controllers tried to contact the cockpit a dozen times but got no response for 17 minutes. The pilots were subsequently fired, but suspensions issued by the US aviation watchdog have now been served. Officials feared for the safety of the 40 passengers on board when they got no response from the Hawaiian carrier's short-haul Flight 1002 on 13 February. Some 44 minutes into what should have been a 45-minute flight, contact was finally established and the plane was ordered to return to land. Sleep disorder The US National Transportation Safety Board ruled in June that both pilots "unintentionally fell asleep". Captain Scott Oltman was suspended for 60 days by the the US Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) for careless and reckless operation of an aircraft and for failing to maintain radio communications. The FAA suspended First Officer Dillon Shepley for 45 days for careless and reckless operation of a plane. Both suspensions were completed on 9 September, the FAA said. After February's incident, Mr Oltman was diagnosed with "severe obstructive sleep apnea" which causes people to stop breathing repeatedly in their sleep, preventing a restful night. No action was taken against the carrier because it was deemed to have acted within guidelines and had offered the two pilots sufficient rest-time between flights. Story from BBC NEWS: BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Snoozing pilots to return to work |
As an Engineer working in the sleep medicine industry, I am surprised that screening for sleep apnea is not part of a pilot's normal medical exam. There are screening programs run by my company that have been taken up by various corporations for their executives, and trucking companies for their drivers, so if they can do it, I'm sure airlines can.
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Fatigue is a massive problem in the oil & gas industry as well. Last year I commissioned a sleep / fatigue specialist and a human factors specialist to help us write a document for the industry and you can download a copy gratis at
IPIECA Interestingly, the consultants we hired had just completed a program for EZY which included reviews of rostering and scheduling. EZY gave permission for them to brief us on the program and I have to say that I was seriously impressed - EZY went up a lot in my estimation. Pinkman |
Fatigue is a problem in all areas of transportation, production, law enforcement & armed services where a (in theory) a 30 hr day exists. In my past there has been the situation (very early 70s and overseas) of 70+ hr duty (operational management not flying) with only snatched 60 min naps. Yes excessive, but we had to keep the operation going, the attitude was the Spanish, French & Greek ATCOs who were on strike, were not gonna stop us flying!
Whether it is 12 or 8 hr shifts, the switch from days to nights or from lates to earlies (8 hr T/R incorporating the commute) leaves folks fatigued, this is accumulative, and insidious in it's effects on qualitative output. |
sleep apnoea
I think you would find that having sleep apnoea would lead to loss of licence.
Even with cpap one can have symptoms |
And the main problem with fatigue is that it is very hard to recognise it in yourself, thus people reporting for duty fatigued. And what if you start the duty feeling OK and then fatigue hits you part way through a double night sector? Do you go to the nearest airport, land and call the company to tell them you are not continuing because you are fatigued? I don't think so!!!
I have had countless days/ nights in hotels where I have been woken up by reception/ fire alarm practice/ actual fire alarms/ cleaners etc. despite having posted the "do not disturb" notices. If I am in a hotel it is usually because there is no-one at base to do the flight. Therefore I know if I call in fatigued someone else will get called out, and they won't have had sufficient rest. And how we are magically meant to switch from an early to a night or vice versa (albeit with usually a day or so in between), and be 100% rested I have yet to discover. I sleep well but sometimes it really is impossible to get a "proper" amount of sleep prior to every duty, due to the way it is rostered (and an attempt to have a life, albeit even with early nights, on your days off). And there is still a stigma attached to calling in fatigued for duty if you don't manage to sleep well (even if its not your fault). |
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