BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
 

82 seats (3 class) total, using BA 757 aircraft...a "new" airline?
Do you BALPA pilots have any SCOPE protections?

What's "the plan"?

KC135777

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http://flyopenskies.com/

Hello. We’re OpenSkies.
And we’re building an airline.

http://flyopenskies.com/wp-content/t.../openskies.jpg
We’re a new airline being born from the innovative minds of British Airways. As you may have heard, a new agreement between the European Union and the United States has quite literally opened the skies for transatlantic travellers. Soon we plan to take flight directly from the New York area to destinations throughout Continental Europe. We’re excited to provide a premium flying experience as we explore bold and creative ideas in air travel. Help us forge the future of airline travel. Join the conversation.

It’s official! Project Lauren becomes OpenSkies.

Date: January 9th, 2008
Author: Dale Moss


Good morning. An exciting day for us all. After months of relentless planning and developing, we’re proud to announce the launch of OpenSkies: the airline formerly known as Project Lauren. For you inquisitive minds, Lauren happens to be the name of my first granddaughter. And, just like Lauren, this airline is very much family to me.
We intend to take our very first flight from New York to either Paris or Brussels in June of this year. We couldn’t be more elated. Witnessing this idea slowly become reality has been a thrilling journey.
As a British Airways enterprise, this truly is history in the making. Open Skies is the moniker for the new agreement between the United States and European Union liberalising aviation. We are now able to fly freely to and from the United States to virtually any destination in the EU—the skies have literally opened over the Atlantic.
Our plan is to operate six aircraft by the end of 2009, originating in the New York area and flying to a range of destinations throughout Europe. The planes will be efficient and proven 757s with a redesigned, traveller-friendly cabin configured in 3 classes: business, premium economy, and economy.
The business class cabin will have 24 seats that convert into 6’ flat beds. And when we say flat, we mean completely horizontal. This makes OpenSkies one of the only airlines in the market offering this feature. We will also offer 28 premium economy seats with a 52” seat pitch. This is also unique, redefining the premium economy class. Plus the comfortable 30 economy seats mean no more than 82 passengers will be on any given aircraft. It’s all part of our vision for a more personal flying experience.
But beyond the specs, I’d like to say that OpenSkies is dedicated to elevated customer care. We will take the lead from British Airways and try new, inventive ways to improve service at all levels. We’d also like for you to tell us your thoughts, your ideas, and—once we take off— tell us how we’re doing. You can start right here with this blog.
Cheers for now,
Dale Moss
Managing Director

Yep :ok:


Crunch meeting on 14th Jan - watch this space............:E

.....Very quiet skies over West London sometime after the 14th January.


:ok:

Good luck, gentlemen!!

BALPAs response will be announced on the 17th Jan, so dont expect anything before then.

I have little doubt this is going to turn very nasty.

Anyone handing in their notice with a current employer to take up positions in this new venture, would be well advised to think very carefully.

BALPA......AA pilots will support your action. It's being planned.

Oh dear, more trouble just as Willie prepares to move house.:ok:

jacjetlag

Thank you.

Can I take it that as BA have an "issue" going on, the rest of us can sing dixie for any help from BALPA as per normal, or am I being a touch cynical??;););) History suggests not...

ready for the nigel rants

Tandem Rotor has got it right. I worked with some pretty bitter guys at Flying Colours who had only joined on the promise that they would be flying BA 777's for AML. BALPA didn't allow that to happen - don't expect this to work either. Those handing in their notice in for this project may be wise to look to history to avoid repeating mistakes alraedy made.:=

All those ready to bash us in Nigel land just remember this..........If we were to lose this one (which we won't) it would mean the end of BALPA as a means of defending Ts and Cs INDUSTRY wide - like it or not, BA are the benchmark here in the UK and if our Ts and Cs go on a downward spiral ( which they would if BA were to win ) which way will yours go, do you think?? It's that serious IMHO.............:uhoh:

Check out Qantas and Jetstar if you doubt me - it's scary stuff!!!

PS Offer of support from AA greatly appreciated

Excellent post from Sid, only 1000% correct. I'm with Tfly/FC, and I hope that we too would support the BA guys.
It's the big picture for now and the future; forget the past, it's gone.

And there was me thinking that it was going to be called OpenLies!

The BACC can fully count on the AA pilots' help to provide the paint and brush. It would appear Willie has (once again) already picked out a corner.

dd

To everyone who thinks that their T&C's might not be affected by this venture:
have a very very close look at the following links:
It happened to the Qantas guys so it can happen to us, read them in order of links below.
If we loose this battle, you can kiss goodbye to your T&C's too.


http://www.allmoto.com/allflying/geoffdixon0708.html

http://www.smartofficenews.com.au/Business/A8L7X6H6

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...941065311.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...d=rss_business

http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/upload/785-1.pdf

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-1702,00.html



AA Boys: Many thanks for the support, we do need it.
I hope it'll be industry wide.

All the best to the BA guys.

The whole industry needs you to fight this one.

The problem for the BA guys is that a precedent has been set for other pilots to fly BA routes with BALPA's agreement. GB, Cityflyer and BMED all flew BA services using BA flight numbers and paint schemes etc. but BA pilots did not do the flying. All three were separate companies but I wonder how long it will take BA to set openskies up as a standalone franchise company and thereby claim they can operate it without BA flightcrew and cabin crew. Good luck, you are going to need it.

Max Angle

I beg to differ. GB, BMED, and the original Cityflyer, formed no precedent whatsoever. They were all completely separate companies from the outset.

The one subsidiary you have NOT mentioned however, is much more similar, but an agreement was made to allow it to continue outside 'scope'.

There will be no agreement to allow 'Openskies' to operate outside 'scope'!

What bases?
 

Forgive me for being an idiot but what is the general consensus amongst BA pilots? Are they up in arms because they have not had the option of operating this outfit? If so - how could they? With bases out of NY - would it not be tricky for EU members to be based there?
I presume if the aircraft are G reg then the licence is not an issue - but are the american authorities happy to open the doors to non-us nationals to operate an airline from their turf?
Does anyone know if bases in europe would be an option for pilots of this new outfit?

Autobrake - there were some rumors sometime ago about it being a N registered or US based operation, but those were incorrect.

Its going to be G registered with initial crew bases in Paris and Brussels.

The general consensus amongst this BA pilot is - I've just liquified all my assets into cash so I can last longer than BA during a strike. I really do think its that serious.

If OpenLies stays small then it costs the company nothing to have the 20 or so pilots on the seniority list. If it doesn't, then it is a direct threat to my livelihood (remember all airframes used are to be taken from the mainline fleet and there would be NOTHING to stop the company shifting 20 744's to europe next year if we let this start) and should be treated as such.

I hope the company sees sense. We're not even asking for our T&C's to be applied to the new routes.... What a way to treat a group that daily goes the extra mile to keep the airline running in the shambolic years since 9/11.

It looks as if hsyteria is beginning to creep in here and people are worrying about shadows. BA has limited funds to invest in new ventures and the vast bulk of its forward expenditure is going into mainline and always will. This peripheral operation which is effectively New York to Europe is highly unlikely to affect anyone's prospects now or in the future. If the small number of surplus 757s don't go into the project then they will be sold or scrapped. If the project is to have any chance of success then it must keep costs below mainline levels and even then long term most would doubt that it has anything more than a 50/50 chance.

The trouble is Skylion - I'm not going to wait for BA to announce a European base of 60 aircraft running W patterns through LHR before I see a threat.

If it is only to be a small base, put the 20 pilots on the bottom of the seniority list, on Lauren T&C's & therefore at no extra cost. If the venture fails, the pilots get the opportunity to join at LHR - again, no extra cost as we are recruiting anyway. They may not want to join anyway and will disappear - no extra cost.

If (as we all hope) Lauren succeeds, then surely BA will not pass up the opportunity to use its new 787's for this - they are designed for the purpose and far more cost efficient than 20 year old 757's. They are however being bought with the money saved from my pension.......

Ryanair was small once. Easy, Emirates, Virgin and, yes, even Jetstar were small once. The only hysteria will be the madness of the company if they think we can't see a Trojan horse when we see one.

Here's hoping for one small concession on Monday. (Me, I'd go for London T&C's but there we are.....)

jacjetlag

Thanks for the post. You AA guys have a big set of knackers to be asking for that 50% plus raise. Well done as you deserve to get back what you lost post 9/11. We are trying to hang on to our T's and C's now and I am sure every AA pilot knows where we are coming from. Funny thing is we may be working for the same team sooner than later. :ok::ok::ok:

BA better be cautious over this one as it could turn in to a smoking hole in the ground before it even gets going. Mainline is the most profitable flag carrier on the planet and there are some big events in the calendar coming up. I have no idea why the boat needs to be rocked too much at this point. BA pilots welcome expansion with open arms but a pre planned attack on contracts will be met with swift and dare I say damaging action. The people I fly with are not interested in punch up. That being said if BA throws a sneaky blow though, the fight is on.

Lets hope it never gets to that.

That "50% raise" is our 1992 wages, adjusted for 2.68 annaul inflation. We're currently working for a tad less than 1992 wages. We DEMAND restoration. We supported our Irish friends, and we're behind you guys too.

The pilot mindframe/personality is a "mission-hacker" solution oriented type. Management at ALL airlines take advantage of this DAILY. We "make it happen" and keep the airlines running. Basically, we go above & beyond the call of duty on a DAILY basis.

Most airlines would fall apart quickly, if the pilots just did what they have to do. (ie..one call to mx, then sit on hands) Remove the emotions, and just do the job...and NOT worry about ANYONE being "mad" at you/us. So many departments; catering/fueling/mx, etc...have their head deep up their arses.....SO BE IT.

Good luck with Open Lies. APA/AA pilots are behind you.

KC

CanAV8R.....

There is honor in this fight. We wish BALPA all the best. Open Lies had better not show up at our gates in JFK. They will have some hellacious waiting trying to get out of the alley between terminals.

Not exactly the most effective way of gaining support from other departments is it? As an engineer I find your comments disgusting.

Flight website has something about the situation, reported here, seems to suggest crews didn't know BA was going to spill the details this early. :bored:

As BALPA are not suggesting LHR mainline terms and conditions, simply that the pilots be on the mainline seniority list, the costs will remain below mainline levels.:rolleyes:

Do pay attention, Skylion. I presume you're management....:ugh:

For once, a fairly accurate assessment of what's going on. I understand that BALPA were told in advance about the launch of Lauren-->OpenSkies and that crewing issues would not be discussed in public, at least until after the next meeting with BA...

The support of APA/AA pilots was absolutely crucial to IALPA/Aer Lingus pilots in preventing the introduction of a similar Trojan horse in Belfast. Following a short sharp fight, pilots for this BFS operation are now on the seniority list with the right eventually to transfer to mainline, but are on local T&cs while BFS based. Thank you to our AA colleagues. We hope that our friends in BA are equally successful in resisting this attack. It can be done! Good luck.

Fargoo.......

Why would KC135777 say such a thing?
Perhaps he was pushed from his Narrow Body captain seat and given a further 23% paycut afterwards(45% total), His CEO then told him "Pull together, win together". The company was saved because of employee sacrifices. Five years later there is no "win together" , only obscene multi-million dollar bonuses for executives. The pilots have asked for a restoration of pay and were told "work more hours". At AA , the employee's disgust is universal across all employee groups. Perhaps you'd have to be here to understand. AA management's arrogance knows no boundaries , but they will soon understand they have gone too far.

I understand all of that but still doesn't explain comments like this

Does it?

Would you all just catch a grip
 

Every airline and its dog are trying to muscle in on Heathrow, THE ONLY MAJOR HUB OF YOUR AIRLINE.

So BA tries in a pathetic little manner to stick it back to them with a couple of aging 757.

And the support they get from their own employees?

Dunno why they would bother. Just let Continental, Delta, KLM, Air France, Northwest, US Airways, Virgin, United, bmi rip their market to shreds while the BA pilots bicker over threats, real or imaginary.

flame all you like. Let me tell you that your business class passengers have given BA the benefit of the doubt for far to long.

We've put up with enough crap, and still it continues. Time to go elsewhere.

Fargoo,
The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Shall I continue?
How about during a delay? ...during a ramp worker's shift change? NO continuity between shifts- but a 10-20 minute delay before ANYbody shows up to push off. Or, even if you're an ON time arrival...where is everybody? Hmmm, we're ON schedule. Hmmm, WHY in the heck to we "keep surprising" them EVERY day? The blind leading the blind?!
Yeah, that's right....unFlippinBelievable.
That's what disgusts me- on a DAILY basis.
So, so, so tired of constantly apologizing to the passengers.
KC

I agree with you Fargoo.

It's really not as though the pilot community are the only people that go above and beyond. Try talking to passenger service staff that go 40-60 staff down per shift. No extra payments for working 'one-down' for them.

Look at the dispatchers covering multiple flights due to people leaving or sickness. Look at the load controllers covering for the loss of 10 of their colleagues. Yet load sheets still get to the crews in 10 minutes or less, so they can go on doing their 'above and beyond' bit. Consider the engineers going out of their way to fix something that could cause a cancellation. Why stay on after your shift, going above and beyond, when you can just write it up, make it U/S and go home? Consider yourself important by all means - after all, you fly the bus. But you wont go anywhere without my loadsheet first..

What I'm saying is, we don't have our heads up our arses, we just get on with our jobs, and don't have the arrogance to go on telling people how we hold the airline together or stop the sh*t hitting the fan. We just do it.

Sadly LHR 777, you have hit the nail on the head. A perfect description of LHR on a good day.Lord knows what is going to happen in the event of a bit of disruption/bad weather/computer failure/go slow. I know that I plod into work, do the best I can and then go home indifferent as to whether the operation holds together or not. Part of me thinks that the company deserves to go bust, because the airline that would be rebuilt could sort out most of LHRs' problems with a clean sheet. Then I realise that actually, the good people would go elsewhere, and we would be stuck with the same idiots that we have dragging the airline down at the moment. So, what to do? Defend our T's and C's like the other staff seem to? I think so, except we'll keep within the law and ballot for a strike.

I'll have to slightly distance myself from KC135777.
Its very frustrating to do all you can and see nobody there on the ramp.
For sure there are some really rotten elements in all departments that believe earning a wage for cock all work is the norm. (even in flight ops thats the case)
However BA has stripped all the fat of the meat and there is not a lot of flex in the system when 'certain' forces act upon it.

LHR_777 it's not as rosy a picture you are painting of ground staff.....
for example: push scheduled right before shift change. push truck there, tug connected, a/c about to push back. small failure leads to a 10min delay. push crew buggers off since it's shift change. UN bloody believeable. Not my aisle mate is the simple answer....

@CaptJ: obviously you've missed a lot of background information on this issue. The support is there from the employees (ai pilots) to make OpenSkies a success. But would you be happy with setting up a seperate company under your banner with the potential to eventually replace you or forced to take different T&C's (Jetstar-Qantas)... I think not.

Many of our business passengers are happy with the service they get and rank our crews as a major reason to fly BA.
We want BA to succeed but not over the back of their own employees when we've given up so much over the last 10yrs or so. ai pension, increased flying hours (to the max allowed), work bidding arrangements etc etc the list goes on.

We indeed put nothing in the way of success for OpenSkies. It's why many of us can not understand what BA are playing it. Obviously up to something

Thanks for the reply KC.
What i'm saying is - don't tar us all with the same brush.
I'll leave it at that :ok: