MANBLK

If you are recruited into OpenLies, BALPA want you to be a BA pilot.

BA do not want this.

Why do you imagine BA do not want it???

No problem imagining why BA don't want it Lauren crewed by BA.

We've done a full circle here. I'm merely trying to make the point that there are probably a lot of non-BA BALPA members out here who don't want it either, but BALPA isn't interested in us.

MANBLK,

Apologies. You're correct in that the concept is second nature to the BA guys. Tandemrotor sums it up quite neatly above.

The only thing I don't understand, which is what you are alluding to, is why anyone would not want Lauren to be part of the BA list. As we have said, BA (longhaul at LHR at any rate) is top of the tree in the UK with respect to Terms and Conditions. As a result, whether one likes it or not, we ensure that the T&Cs elsewhere in the UK are perhaps higher than they might otherwise be. If Lauren goes forward as BA desire, terms and conditions at LHR will deteriorate over time. If they deteriorate there, overall they will eventually deteriorate everywhere else in the UK. I know I am not alone when I say that if I have to work on a lesser deal than I am currently on, I guarantee it won't be for BA. 1000 disgruntled ex-BA guys flooding the market won't be good for anyone, I assure you.;)

As a direct result, lower T&Cs at Easyjet or Virgin for example (and to be fair, that is a very personal view) will start to become attractive. I trust you see where this would ultimately lead.

As I say, apologies (in my defence, it wasn't directed entirely at you). ;)

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!

What tandemrotor is saying is:

You apply for an OpenLies position, either seat.
You are successful.
BALPA say you should now be considered a BA pilot on the BA seniority list.
BA are saying NO.

Now do you see what BALPA are asking for?

MANBLK, even I understand it and I am blond...

We are welcome to fly the open sky 757 as a DEC!
As a present you get a number on the BA list on top.
You are not at all intrested in mainline BA, so you will put that number in a drawer and it will stay there forever. I on the other hand might use my number to get a LHS on the A380 in twenty years time.
Balpa is happy as well because there is nobody undermining mainline T& C's, because when I move to A380 it will be on mainline T&C's.
BA doesn't want us on the list because they want to bring in cheap(er) pilots and than expand as much as possible through open skies.

Hurrahhh!

Top marks to Sarah! :D

Partly by siphoning off work from Mainline to expand OpenLies ala Jetstar V Qantas. That is the core issue at stake here.

One other point though...

You get a Seniority Number when you join. As people leave & new pilots are recruited your number will decrease (ie move towards the magic #1 spot).

Senior pilots have lower numbers, but I'm sure you knew that. ;) The numbers are updated usually every Jan/Feb.
Having 'seniority' within BA is very nearly the be-all-and-end-all.

Good Luck

(Talks adjourned for tonight. Reconvened tomorrow. Standard practice-wear down the reps. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the talks lasting until the 16/17th)

I'd swap it for my own P-51. ;)

If your number is less than 1000 it's a deal! :ok:

So what are they planning to do with Open Skies that is different to what they did with the farce that was BACiti Express / Connect? A company which BA trashed and yet which a once small West Country airline is apparently able to turn round within a year.

Is it going to be another training/playground for wannabe BA senior managers? I note that at least one of the Directors of Open Skies was on the board of Connect, so what is he going to do differently this time? No investment, clapped out old handmedown airframes, still too many ties to Waterside, - all sounds very familiar. Regardless of pilots on the BA seniority list, unless WW has really got a grip and brought in some people who have been in the real world outside HQ BA, it is doomed.

Guys we have seen this in australia.
It is a cancer within.

• 23 Aircraft only
• Protect mainline from VB
• Memorandum of understanding for pilot transfer-that is ridiculous
• Never an international airline
• won't compete with mainline

[/LIST]
It is called J* and it bleeds mainline. It is an industrial wedge nothing more.
Get full access or you are out of the game...

The more things change the more they stay the same!

MANBLK

let me try. If BALPA win the fight and all new joiners to open skies are on the mainline list each and every on of them will have the right to bid for a position anywhere in BA. If thier seneroty is high enough they will get it. This includes (subject to passing the course) LHS of any fleet. How is that a negative?

PL will not be crewed from within BA there is an on going demand for 150+ new pilots a year in mainline. I sincerley hope the entry requirments and selection process for PL will be the same as mainline.

In short if you join PL on the mainline list you are a BA pilot with all the rights that come with that.

I hope that helps I am sure someone will post a better reply soon.

Are these OPEN SKIES aircraft on the BA AOC.

Do BA have more than one AOC?

They'll probably be on a seperate AOC. BA currently have more than one. The Gatwick shorthaul operation has had it's own AOC for years.

Hi guys,
i usually just take a cursory glance at this site from time to time but i felt had to sign up to post a reply this thread.

Hello MANBLK,
it seems (to me anyway) that you take issue with the fact that (regarding PL) BALPA are only interested in the careers of BA mainline employees.
That is exactly what the British Airways Company Council is supposed to do.

BA employees worked hard to make the profits that are being used to fund PL. Of course we want to keep the jobs for ourselves. IMO we are not being at all unreasonable in taking that view. The vast majority of BA crew pay BALPA subs so that when OUR careers/ts&cs are threatened BALPA will fight OUR corner.
Regardless of what happens with PL there would be some pilots (possibly BALPA members) who would stand to benefit. But, in negotiations with BA, BALPAs duty is to BA pilots only. They will (and should) fight for the best possible outcome for BA pilots. They are not interested in furthering the careers of non-BA pilots at the expense of BA pilots.
Please note that I take this view only regarding negotiations between BALPA and BA.

Similarly, if BALPA are in negotiations with Virgin management they will only fight for the interests of Virgin pilots.
In negotiations with your airline, BALPA would be fighting your corner.

I don't see how this view could be considered unreasonable.

In an ideal world i believe BAPLA would ask for full mainline ts&cs for PL employees. I.E. you would be recruited into BA mainline and PL would be just another fleet. What they have actually asked for will remain unknown until the standing conference has finished.

On a different topic: Regarding the careers of LOCO captains, the seniority systems in place in most major longhaul airlines have been there for decades and and have not been a secret. If you join one of these airlines you go in at the bottom regardless of experience.
Hence, the quickest route to longhaul captain with any of these airlines is to apply as soon as you meet the minimum requirements.
If you choose to remain in your LOCO airline and take a command there that is your choice, but i don't think it's reasonable to then expect a direct entry command at another airline.
MANBLK, i don't claim to know the details of your particular situation but in general what i've said i believe to be reasonable.

Cheers

COME ON BALPA!

Sarah and Kabaka, thanks for that and this is my final post on the subject.

If BALPA succeeds in getting BA seniority for Lauren pilots, then I think the commands will go to existing BA pilots and the likes of me won't get a look-in. I can't say how because I don't know the nuts and bolts, but somehow it will happen.

I can't believe that the BA CC want it any other way, and ComeOnBalpa seems to agree with me. Just look at them worrying about "inexperience damaging the BA brand". And taking BALPA as a whole, representing all UK members, that's bad - because pilots outside BA need more opportunities, not less. BA pilots already have opportunities in bucketloads.

This is the one big (and maybe final) opportunity for BALPA to show that it does its best for ALL its members, not just the most powerful group.

Do you suppose BA pilots got to have all those opportunities by letting their employer outsource their growth?

Simple really; For FOs - secondments...five years of very inferior terms with little prospect of a command - moreover, commands implanted from BA, not from within on merit, causing disenchantment and low morale. It doesn't work at GSS at it wouldn't work here - witness recruitment of FOs at minimum experience, with those with options leaving to "normal" airlines, with normal promotion structures. It would be daft to join PL rather than BA mainline. Worried about "inexperience damaging the BA brand"?? - well this is exactly what would happen.

For DECs, I can see no reason.

The argument for keeping PL completely separate is compelling; witness GO - An excellent outside CEO (Cassani) and a motivated pilot force = a very successful airline. Of course, BA couldn't allow the prodigal child to prosper on its patch, so it was sold for way below value. BA influence is poison to organic growth and innovation.

Secondments are a flawed and distasteful distortion of the pilot structure. A ban of W flights entering the UK has merit, as it would be a breach of scope.

MANBLK,
if PL goes ahead the way (i think) BACC want it to, there may or may not be a need for direct entry captains. This would depend entirely on whether enough mainline pilots wanted the position of captain on a PL 757. If not then BA would have to recruit externally for DECs.
If there are enough mainline pilots that want the PL commands then there would be no space for DECs. However, there would still be external recruitment - to fill the shoes of those having moved from a mainline fleet to a PL command.

Basically, IMO, all PL positions should be offered to eligible mainline pilots. If there is not sufficient interest then the remaining positions should be offered to external DEFOs and DECs as required.
Either way, expansion means external recruitment and opportunities for non-BA pilots such as yourself.

I am honestly interested to know if you (or anyone else) thinks this is an unfair point of view for an existing mainline pilot to take.

PS - Its important to mention that the main concern of most mainline crew (myself included) is not getting the opportunity of an early command or a foreign base on a 757.
What we are most concerned about is a Jetstar/Qantas situation developing and our ts&cs being permanently eroded.

MANBLK, I give up.