British Airways flight seconds away from mid-air disaster (Not!)
Hundreds of passengers watched in horror as their British Airways jumbo narrowly avoided a collision with another airliner over France.
The Johannesburg-bound flight from Heathrow was suddenly forced to climb to avoid an Argentinian passenger jet. Aviation insiders said the planes had allegedly been put on to the same flight path by French air traffic controllers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...EWS&ICL=TOPART |
Another quality piece from the Daily Mail!!! They are saying insiders said it was hushed up?!?! Yes it may not have been public but I am sure it was published in the internal safety briefs.
Chances are this happend in the dark. When approaching Heathrow at 0630 in the morning when it is dark the other aircraft approaching look a lot closer than they are when you are sitting down the back in economy as their lights are shining right at you as you turn onto finals and they are lining up behind. |
Ah well if it's in the Daily Mail it bound to be true, word for word and every little detail!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
If you read the Daily Mail article at the beginning of the piece it says the Aerolineas Argentinas a/c was a 747 then at the end, an Airbus A340. Tells you all you need to know about the standard of journalism here.
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"A long-haul aircraft such as a Boeing 747 would typically fly at around 37,000ft. Aircraft usually have to be five miles apart horizontally and with a 1,000ft difference in altitude to reduce the risk of a mid-air smash."
Didn't realise we had to have both 5 miles and a thousand feet. Better stand myself down! |
I highly doubt the BA aircraft "turned right" as we all know that's not a TCAS procedure. As a happy result from an RA involves BOTH aircraft following their TCAS (And the DHL smash and JAL near miss both show this does not always happen) I would seriously consider a lateral manouvre if I believed it would aid in seperation. (Indeed, many manuals procedure for a TA invoke considering a lateral manouevre) |
Hi there,
If it was a BA 747-400 in French airspace enroute to Johannesburg would it not be closer to FL330 as it would need to burn of a few thousand Kgs of fuel before climbing to a higher level? And it would have been an evening flight, normal departure time is either 7pm or 9pm local (or there abouts) I wonder if anyone on board even realised anything out of the ordinary had happened? Cheers Ant |
The captain probably just came down after the dinner service to stretch his legs...perfectly normal!!!
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TCAS is really inaccurate in azimuth and must not be used for lateral guidance. If you have the traffic visual then a turn to the right might work.
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Ohh man here we go again.....
This seems to be a two week returning item from the Daily Mail: Seconds away from disaster :yuk:, it was very close runnings :yuk:, passengers saw the plane coming :ugh: Really this is all a waste of our time. It is obvious the 'journalist' is making it up as he/she goes. Not the RA but certainly the rest of the stuff. I personally love the phrase about a 'BA eye witnesses', which seems very unlike to me at 33000 feet unless it was superwoman flying by..... |
The following sections cut / pasted from a Boeing QRH (Quick Reference Handbook) wherein I've highlighted some sections in red for added emphasis...
ACTION IN THE EVENT OF A RESOLUTION ADVISORY (RA) One suspects that understanding the simple concepts contained within the instructions above are wayyyy beyond the comprehension of a Daily Mail journo! :rolleyes:Accomplish recall procedure without delay. NEVER MANOEUVRE IN THE OPPOSITE SENSE because TCAS could be co-ordinating manoeuvres with other aircraft. It should be stressed that excessive pitch rates should not be made unless the approaching aircraft is seen and the situation requires such a response. RA manoeuvres require only small pitch attitude changes that should be accomplished smoothly and without delay. Properly executed, the RA manoeuvre is mild and does not require large or abrupt control movements. Remember that the passengers and cabin crew may not all be seated during the manoeuvre and shouldn't be subjected to other than moderate accelerations ('g' forces). Pilot Response : General: Follow the instructions in the QRH. Do not turn. Note the specific instructions for a Climb RA in a landing configuration. Although RA manoeuvres require only small pitch attitude changes they must be accomplished smoothly and without delay. Traffic Advisory (TA): The Handling Pilot should adjust the EHSI MAP range or the TCAS IVSI range so that the conflict is clearly visible. Look for traffic using the display as an aid. Call out any conflicting traffic. Do not manoeuvre unless visual contact confirms that separation is not adequate. An intruder is identified as one whose flight path brings it to within 20 to 48 seconds of closest point of approach. Resolution Advisory (RA): Disconnect the autopilot and authothrust, ignore existing Flight Director pitch demands and respond to the RA by referring to the IVSI or the EHSI as appropriate. Maintain the pre-existing IAS. TCAS IVSIs presentation:- The “safe” vertical speed band is indicated in green. An initial RA assumed that the PF will respond within 5 seconds using a smooth manoeuvre to enter and maintain the green arc. If a subsequent corrective RA is given, the assumed manoeuvre time is 2.5 seconds. TCAS EHSI presentation:- The aircraft/s pitch must be adjusted to fly the aeroplane symbol just out of the red region on the EADI. There is no green “safe” area. |
Sometimes I worry about what I read on here!
TCAS doesn't give any azimuth indications only Climb or Descend with possible instructions to increase/decrease vertical speeds, but being ATC you would know that of course.:hmm: Insiders said it had been "hushed up" I tried using the Daily Mail as loo paper but it chafes....guess it really is good for nothing! |
Love this bit
'A BA eye-witness told colleagues...' Standard Jurno get out clause for "I'm going to make something up here, I have no factual evidence of it ever happening and I haven't spoken to anyone concerned; however to make sound like it has any substance at all I will use the company name and pretend that I was informed by an employee..." Believe it is covered in Chapter 6, Section 15 of the 'Jurno's Guide to writing Bull****' |
Wow, this place isn't as friendly as it used to be!
TCAS does display traffic around you though doesn't it? I was trying to get across that these are only diplayed in 12 'sectors' of 30 degrees so it is quite possible that traffic showing on your display at half past 11 could easily be half past 12 and a turn to the right would be a bad thing. I do know even if you are visual you should still follow the RA but it must be very tempting to make a turn to avoid. Hence the "turn to the right might work" quote. It's a shame this forum has turned into the place it has. I've learnt so much from it in the past but now it seems posters would much rather flame others than give them the benefit of the doubt. |
TCAS RA's
Hi there,
Last months safety information from my company was about TCAS and RA's, so I would like to ad a couple of facts to the things which were stated there. 1. Never turn, even if your visual with "the" traffic, because who tells you that the traffic you are looking at is the Traffic the RA is for. 2. Acting incorrect or even opposite towards an RA leads to a situation were the the distance between the conflicting traffics is sometimes even less then if none of them had reacted at all.:ooh: Blue Sky's everyone... Micky |
It's a shame this forum has turned into the place it has. I've learnt so much from it in the past but now it seems posters would much rather flame others than give them the benefit of the doubt. |
Yeah a turn to the right might work or it could bury your wingtip into the wing-root of the other aircraft OR maybe even cause a CFIT (admittedly, that is unlikely @33000' but possible at lower altitudes), best just to follow the correct procedure and live. We all remember what happened last time an RA was ignored don't we?!
TCAS III may be able to give headings when developed but until then its climbs and descents only. |
Hi, Rainbow. As an avid MS flyer myself and ex PPL, I can only agree with your post about ignorant people posting on this forum. As a retired person, I find it a HUGE source of interest and learning, but would not dream of posting something I patently knew nothing about. MS has it's own forums, without pretend pilots being on this one. Be like me, MS guys, read, learn, but DONT intervene!!!!
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The reason some aircraft preclude turning as part of an RA is because of performance. The RA climb performance might be more marginal in some circumstances if the aircraft isn't turning.
But apart from that, in general terms, there is no inherent reason why you shouldn't be turning just as long as you aren't doing so based on looking at your traffic display. Still plenty of scope for non TCAS encounters, either by MEL or interaction with non equipped aircraft, so turning for collision avoidance should not be automatically labelled 'never do this'. pb p.s. We all remember what happened last time an RA was ignored don't we?! |
Could ATC have instructed the right turn for avoidance before the TCAS RA came??
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I'm normally one to complain about pilots' hysteria following a press report but this one takes the biscuit.
#1. As was mentioned earlier, following this brush with death the captain allegedly wiped the sweat from his brow and sallied off to calm the passengers? Unlikely I'd say, you might be thinking - locked cockpit, we can't do that - but no, in fact it's because of point #2.. #2. Which is that it was the captain that outmanoeuvred the pesky Argie jet. Now as we all well know, it's usually the pilot who does something. Given that a 747 (in addition to anything else that brings passengers moments from death in the sky) is a single pilot aircraft, who would've been minding the controls whilst our hero went down the back? Perhaps it could've been the CSD in the right seat that performed the RA? #3. I have been a passenger on a Rome-Buenos Aires flight. I recall it heading south-west, in the general direction of South America. I'd be asking questions as to what the Aerolineas was doing around Marseilles. More than likely it was a conspiracy involving Argentina and France to bring down a British jet. This paper really isn't fit to polish ones arse with. I'd send it back where it came from. ;) |
Insiders said it had been "hushed up" |
in the event of an RA I don't think you have time to assess if the area you're turning into is clear, consider it as an option then carry it out. As to "ässess if the area you're turning to is clear", well, the one thing you know is that which you're flying into isn't! TCAS doesn't give any azimuth indications It doesn't give you azimuth ADVISORIES and is not accurate laterally, but it gives you a very good idea about which direction to look! Are we really saying that, knowing a conflict is about to happen, we sit and wait for the RA and pray the Russian in the other aircraft does the right thing, or do we try and not let it get that far? |
What strikes me most is the title of said article:
British Airways flight seconds away from mid-air disaster May I ask, what about the other flight.... was it not as well seconds away from mid-air disaster? Yeah well, the other one was not a British flight with British citizens on board, so is probably classified as quantité négligable... a journalistic form of nationalism, politically correct today... not so :ouch: Rainboe, thanks :ok: live 2 fly 2 live |
Love the article, 4 comments. 3 along the lines of 'heads should roll, we nearly died', one 'TCAS is there to protect and it works' wonder which of the 4 doesn't appear in the sample of comments.:ugh:
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because the procedures say you don't. As I pointed out, the regulations MANDATE a turn if you are on a reciprocal heading at the same altitude! The procedures FOR AN RA say not to turn, but no procedure UP TO THAT POINT prohibits an avoidence turn. it concerns me that I might be unlucky enough to be flying above/below you when you respond to an RA and decide it appropriate to throw in a turn for good measure. God forbid I ever am. You can't possibly be a professional pilot. |
re Micky's post :
"Never turn, even if your visual with "the" traffic, because who tells you that the traffic you are looking at is the Traffic the RA is for?" Many, many years ago, an Aer Lingus inbound Manch told Preston Airways he had the BEA aircraft opposite direction in sight and asked for descent maintaining VMC which was given. The BEA skipper said "Aer Lingus , how do you know the BEA aircraft you can see is me?". Quick as a flash, the Aer Lingus skipper said " BEA, how do you know the Aer Lingus that just descended through your level was me ?" :) Get the idea ? :E |
As I pointed out, the regulations MANDATE a turn if you are on a reciprocal heading at the same altitude! The procedures FOR AN RA say not to turn, but no procedure UP TO THAT POINT prohibits an avoidence turn. You can bang on all you like about giving way to right, most of the rest of us trust the equipment, and the procedures inherent with that. |
Could've saved a tree or two.
Hundreds of passengers were left completely unaware that safe separation between their Johannesburg bound 747 and an Argentinian passenger jet was maintained following, it is believed, a minor error by air traffic controllers. As the aircraft approached one another the BA 747's automated collision avoidance system was triggered, prompting the pilot to initiate a climb. The system triggers an audible alarm with instruction to climb or descend. Once the aircraft were clear of one another the captain went into the cabin to stretch his legs. |
With respect to turning visually 'away' from another aircraft, perhaps you would consider the following? The aircraft is on the left, heading in a left - right direction. We turn right to avoid it 'visually'. However, all our manouvre achieves is to maintain a constant bearing with the other aircraft - it really does become a 'target'. I think I will stick with the 'up-down' procedure as taught and which is SOP.
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I agree with all the stick to the RA comments.
You see the conflicting traffic and decide to turn right to avoid, what about the aircraft in your 5 o'clock on the same heading and level as you? WIPEOUT! Please Please follow TCAS RAs |
Monarch Man, to be fair, Wizofoz brought up TA's way back in post 7. He was speculating on why the BA aircraft may have turned.
I can't help thinking these threads would progress far more if posters would read others comments and try not to jump down each others throats or assume they're talking to sim pilots rather than aviation professionals. |
And you would quite happily, under IFR radar control, in all likelyhood in RVSM airspace make a turn off your airway (presumably during a TA and before an RA is triggered) as you believed you were going to have a collision? RVSM is reduced VERTICAL seperation- yet you bang on about the dangers of a LATERAL manouevre, whislt saying that relying on a VERTICAL manoeuver (the bit of seperation we've recently reduced) is OK? The DHL pilots followed their TCAS. One of the JAL pilots did. The 738 pilots in Brazil no doubt had your faith in the equipement. That's around two hundred dead and another 350 on bonus days. If it gets down to an RA you follow the SOP procedure. But you should be doing what ever it takes to not get to that point. How's about pointing it out to ATC long before it becomes a TA. WTF are you talking about? If you are genuinely a 777 captain then you have obviously got the wrong end of the stick of this discussion, because that sounds to me like something a PPL would say. |
Of course, if there is absolutely no other option and you are about to collide your natural reaction would cause you to make an avoiding manouvre, but how would you EVER get in that situation? can you think of any examples where this has happened? |
Topslide,
Firstly, your saftey quote is in regards to actions DURING AN RA. I have said several times that, if you get an RA you follow SOPs which includes not turning. What if you're in IMC. Do you just turn because of a TCAS contact? It would seem in the above senerio that you would simply wait for the RA. Fine, but consider these points- 1)TCAS only gives RAs on TXP mode C targets, yet many light aircraft around the world, including Europe, only have mode A. I use to be based in Liverpool and got almost daily TAs from mode A aircraft. The only way to deal with this was to try and aquire the aircraft visually and manoeuvre to aviod if necessary. What would you do? Concentrate on the PFD and wait for the RA that would never come? 2) RAs are only effective if BOTH pilots react to them, yet many pilots from many parts of the world won't. Russia and mainland China are still teaching their pilots to give precedence to ATC over TCAS,and, whilst taught correctly, many cultures have a cultural resistence to go against instructions from ATC. Like I said, if it gets to an RA, strict adherence to SOPs is your best chance of avoidance. But it is a last ditch effort when every thing else has failed, and if you have let chances to avoid it getting that far go, one of the failures is yours. Oh, and as long as we are quoting things, B777 QRH Traffic Avoidance Maneuver:- Traffic Advisory:- PNF- Look for traffic using Traffic Display as a guide.Call out any conflicting traffic PF- If traffic is sighted, maneuver as required. But you know that, right? |
I think Del Prado got it right with how confronational people are now -perhaps its because of how institutionalised we have all become. SOPs are there to be followed and with good reason; however, most are written for single event situations ie the system works & both crews carry out their instructions in a timely manner. What if they don't or the system is not working correctlty? The term airmanship seems to have become lost but it is synonomous with Situational Awareness. I would desperately hope that a crew would be aware of traffic around them during most of their flight regime. (difficult admittedly with GA traffic - Sanford for example) There is the lead up to the RA, the actual RA and what is done about it at what stage. IMC - no brainer but mostly we will be VMC and will be searching for a visual way before the RA happens, ideally steps would taken early to minimise any conflict but if it develops into an RA, and I have actioned the instructions, and have aquired the visual, then if visually the situation warrants I may well break the collision with a turn, and I am not talking about a 160degree turn to conflict with the guy at my 5 oclock x miles behind! All that is required is 5 or 10 degrees - to break the collision and ONLY if required. TCAS is not infallible technically or operationally and as always we are the last slice of cheese - the guy you are going to hit is the one remaining static in your field of view, make him move one way or the other and you won't connect. Furthermore any turn would not be in any defined direction - it would be as the collision required and please don't tell me that a SMALL turn will fly me straight into someone else - We are not flying in close formation here and these are not violent aerobatic reactions. As always when the event is over resume course and level assigned. We all have many tools in our box - when only one is avaliable use it, if others are there be prepared to use them as well if required.
Fly safe the sky is not as big as it once was. and PS Don't believe the press |
Topslide6
far be it from me wanting this thread to go further down the pan, but may I suggest you read del prados post properly and his amplifying one? He is saying that pilots should not initiate turns based on TCAS because the information given in the azimuth plain are very inaccurate. This inaccuracy is the same reason I would politely tell you to do your own job if you pointed out to me that based on TCAS azimuth info, you thought you might have traffic to affect you in the near future... from your post number 38 on this thread - I quote How's about pointing it out to ATC long before it becomes a TA. You know what the solid white diamond means right? |
RA's only give vertical guidance and we are required to adhere to them. If the conflicting AC can be seen and a turn would increase separation why on earth would you not do so? If you had no TCAS and just saw the situation you would use both vertical and lateral means to minimize the possibility of a midair. Common sense should always prevail over standard procedure.
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Common sense should always prevail over standard procedure |
This will blow your mind:
What if you get an RA in a turn?:ugh: |
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