Two pilots allegedly fell asleep during red-eye flight
 

http://www.yahoo.com/s/724787

How common is this and has anyone here ever fallen asleep at the wheel ?

"Hodas said the airline has received similar reports in the past and have addressed them, noting that pilot fatigue is a bigger issue in the industry than the public realizes."

Who would be culpable for this and what action do you think should be taken ?

From the culpability point of view, I would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up.

Last year a 777 from Vietnam Airlines bound for Francfort was detected off flight path over the Czech republic. No reply to frantic ATC calls, the government finally decided to send 2 fighters up. Fighters detected that both pilots were asleep. Passengers were frightened, when they saw the fighters in proximity of the airplane.

Frank

Isn't there some kind of alarm that goes off at regular intervals which the pilots have to respond to to prevent this happening?

Yep. It's called the cabin crew who should be going in there at regular intervals to check on the flight crew.

There is no bigger safety issue in aviation today than fatigue. I see no hype from the journalist.

Another aspect of this story is that you never want to report anything "anonomously" to a safety program that you wouldn't want to read in the papers. Despite all the assurances, some reporter will get "leaked" a copy of the crew roster for that date and the captain's well intended report will come back with possible disciplinary and certificate ramifications. The "amnesty" promised by these anonymous safety reporting programs may wear thin after the crew has been identified by the media.

Most modern Boeings, and probably Airbusses as well, have an alert which says something like "Pilot Response Required" after several minutes of inactivity on the FMC's and other cockpit knobs and switches. It continues to escalate with sounds, lights and messages if you don't cancel it in an attempt to knock the crew out of their daze.

Not all aircraft have this wake up call feature. But all do have CC's and all the PIC has to do is set the call during the briefing or at anytime using the interphone.

It happens to the best...

Original report/incident occured in 2004...?....

https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/...&NARR_VAR=TRUE

NARRATIVE

HAD BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS OF STAND-UP'S. LATE RPT, FLY TO DFW ARRIVE AT XA30 AND GO TO MOTEL AND REST APPROX 8 HRS. SHOW AT XH00, FLY BACK TO DEN. FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH, HAD A SCHEDULE CHANGE TO 'RED EYES,' WHICH CONSISTS OF LEAVING DEN AT XA50, FLY TO BWI AND 1 HR TURN-BACK TO DEN. NO REST, JUST STRAIGHT 7 HRS 55 MINS FLT TO BALTIMORE AND BACK. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY (MAR/THU/04) AFTER 2 PREVIOUS RED EYES, THIS BEING THIRD RED EYE IN A ROW, LAST 45 MINS OF FLT I FELL ASLEEP AND SO DID THE FO. MISSED ALL CALLS FROM ATC TO MEET XING RESTR AT DANDD INTXN IN THE SE CORRIDOR TO DEN. THE XING RESTR BEING DANDD AT FL190 AND 250 KTS. INSTEAD, WE CROSSED DANDD AT FL350 AND MACH .82. I WOKE UP, WHY I DON'T KNOW, AND HEARD FRANTIC CALLS FROM ATC APPROX 5 DME INSIDE OF DANDD. I ANSWERED ATC AND ABIDED BY ALL INSTRUCTIONS TO GET DOWN. WOKE FO UP, STARTED DOWN TO FL220 AS INSTRUCTED, EXPEDITING TO FL220 AND THEN TO 14000 FT WITH TURNS TO 360 DEGS AND THEN TO 180 DEGS. FINISHED ALL CHKLISTS AND LANDED IN DEN WITH NO FURTHER INCIDENTS. WAS NOT TOLD TO CALL ATC, BUT DID FILE RPT WITH COMPANY. ATTRIBUTE INCIDENT TO PLT FATIGUE, AND HOPEFULLY COMPANY IS IN PROCESS OF CHANGING THESE TRIP PAIRINGS.

If the crew had not woken up I guess the aircraft would have entered holding over Denver like the Athens incident depending how the Nav was set up. I wonder how many turns it would have taken before a FA would have investigated. Assuming at least one of them was awake.

Forget possible fatigue for the moment, and put 'CRM' to work...Capt: "I'll take ten, you got it". F/O responds, and then actually stays awake.
This scenario can be repeated in reverse as conditions allow.
This way, at least one is awake.
Can it be this easy?
Well, in over forty years of professional flying, I have personally found it works to perfection, especially on long haul.
If the First Officer looks like he is dozing off, I will suggest he take ten.
It really is as simple as that.
Now, as to the fatigue issue, red eyes are always a problem, and scheduling needs to address this issue without delay.
In the pilots report, it mentions DEN-BWI-DEN as an especially long flight.
Nonsense.
Day or night, it certainly is not excessive, but it does lead to fatigue issues, due to the time of night.
Scheduling...fix the schedule.
Pilots, employ a little 'CRM'.
There that's settled, what's the next problem?:rolleyes:

The next problem is the know-it-alls with the quick-fixes. Luckily that seems confined to the very young or the very old.

That's why the cabin crew must have contact with flight deck every 15 min., no matter if someone of FA just enters in the cockpit or simply makes a short call ''captain ,anymore tea or coffee ?'' .....

All airplanes in a now-defunct Swiss airline used to have "egg-timer" type wind-up clocks installed somewhere on the pedestal...

Now, at nap-time, you would set this alarm at something like 15 to 25 minutes, thus ensuring your own wake-up if the buddy supposed to stay awake did not. Simple and effective.

We did not like cabin crew checking into the cockpit all too often during the night, so as not to wake the resting pilot during his "mini sleep"

The reason we did not do more than about 25 minutes of sleep at the time are well-known. Drop into a full sleep cycle with REM-phase, and your awareness is more likely than not shot for a good while even after the wake up... short naps however work magic on those pesky red-eyes...

Both pilots nodding off during cruise happens... it's not nice, but it happens. So ensuring your own wake-up when napping just makes sense, to save major embarassment, or worse.

"would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up"

Incorrect. I watched the Captain of said flight give this testimony to Congress.

Hi ya,

have a look into the report of the czech authorities about the incident with the HVN 777:

http://www.uzpln.cz/zazpra06/z105.pdf

There is no single word, that the pilots fell asleep. Indeed, this is the best explanation for their behavior, but it is far away from being "official".

Just a little bit hair spitting....

Freight dogs have no cabin crew with which to check on them. Try departing at 0 dark thirty (example-ANC/NRT), flying west for 8 boring hrs constantly chased by a sunrise.

Remember Lindy (Lindbergh)? - He would tie one finger to a wrench with string, then place both on the glare shield. When he fell asleep. his hand would fall, and with it the wrench.

Tough way to go.

fatigue
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm

to me at least, this seemed to be the tip of the iceberg

Ian Shoesmith
BBC News

Must agree with 411A (the first time :}).

There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books. When asking management, they strongly disagree and say that their pilots do not sleep and are never tired.

When you fly with some Asian pilots, you start that CRM thing and tell them to have a controlled nap (because they really don't look fresh), they don't admit that they are tired, just to find out moments later that they are well asleep. Some even have very sophisticated ways of disguising their rest in a sitting position that looks straight and upright - only the eyes are closed. Admiting a physical weakness is very hard, you could loose your face.

Dani

Agreed - unless there has been a request for "No Call" during Controlled Rest in the flight deck. Often we will be told "don't call us, we'll call you in xx mins" on a red eye, to allow undisturbed controlled rest to take place. Possible that that the pilot who was staying awake fell asleep during this "No Call" time? Thats when Cabin Crew should then call (when it goes past xx mins) - generally I let it go 5 mins or so longer than requested, but will call then. Seems to work well.

Wow, so Mach .82 is 608 MPH? Probably calculated .92 mach.

Fatigue is perfect for the aviation authorities.
Fatigue has never been found during an autopsy.

As for US air carrier accidents, the NTSB never found the courage to list it as the primary cause until a Kallitta DC-8 crashed after an all-night flight at Naval Air Station Git'mo Bay, Cuba.

Until tragedies happened with US revenue passengers at LIT involving an MD-83, the FAA never required any pre-designated rest period during each 24 consecutive hours for standby flightcrew.

Having a brand-new FO with a Base Chief Pilot also created a situation whereby the Chief Pilot's judgement seemed not to have been questioned, no matter how 'mission-oriented' the guy was after a 12-hour duty day.

Civilian pilots often forget that most of us are NOT on a vital mission (i.e. rescue people at sea, resupply Khe Sanh or protect a Special Forces outpost during a siege etc)-they are operating an aircraft in order to make money for the stockholders.
Generally speaking, why should you be strictly 'mission-oriented', in order to get into the destination unless you mistakenly burned up too much fuel to safely make it to a 'suitable alternate' airport?

You're right on the money with fatigue in the Gitmo crash. The faa for some reason has still not put a duty time limit on 3-seat a/c supplemental flight operations.

Junkflyer:

I've chatted with two pilots who were 727 Captains at Champion, others flew years ago at Connie (Learjets) etc among many others. It sounds like few Captains had the backbone to tell Dispatch that 13-15 hours on duty was enough. One guy said that Dispatch yelled at him over the phone when he decided not to fly an extra leg and get the plane approaching a Florida city refueled and fly back to PHL or such.

As for the apparent nature of many bosses, never mind worrying about keeping your job if a Learjet engine flames out and you decide to 'declare an emergency' at FL 350...the boss would not be happy at all about the paper-work required for the FAA, and documents on engine maintenance...most pilots simply demanded a lower altitude with 'Center' and did a restart. In one episode, all three DC-8 crewmembers and the mechanic stood together, in order to convince Mr. Kallitta that there was no elevator hydraulic pressure and the plane would not rotate unless repaired.

One lady pilot told me that a young, intimidated Captain she worked with years ago somewhere else briefly considered a 1-engine takeoff in a small 2-engine cargo jet! The other engine would not start, and he was almost afraid to create problems by grounding the jet! :uhoh:

Agree with 411a in this case.

It is better to have a crew member take 10 or 30 for that matter, than 2 or 3 flight deck crew members all battling to stay awake for 8 to 10 hours at a time. All trying to stay awake in the above scenario increases the chances of "all crew nodding off" at once. Seen it happen myself, as battling to stay awake, is a source of fatigue, in itself.

At least when a crew member has woken up from a nap, you have at least one crew member relatively "fresh" and this has to be a great asset should there be an emergency.

I disagree completely, I can assure that they all have proper regulations in the manuals, implementation is another story, and it's very hard for cabin crew to check on the crew when they're all asleep too! :eek:

It's as simple as 411 says. Agree between you if you want or need a nap.

To the CC, I just tell them that there will be one or other of us taking a power nap, don't ding on the call button, but just talk on the interphone (which is being monitored), and I'll answer, if they really feel in the need to do the 20 minute check. Mostly, I'll call them just to let them know that all is well.

It's another situation that SOPs gallore can be written for, but is best sorted with common sense. If comon sense doesn't start off by recognising that it is good practice, then all the SOPs in the world are not actually going to make life any better, just more tiring.

In the late 60s a TWA night cargo 707 westbound to LAX overflew the destination. ATC used selcal to wake them up before they ran dry. :ouch:

Asian Airline
 

We have a bloke who used to fly with an asian airline. Their longhaul procedure was to tell the Captain at 10,000 that it was now okay for him to hit the bunk while they took care of things. The FO and two SO's then took turns minding the store until TOD. Only problem they had was when the Captain, fully rested, would require them to join him shopping outstation. How's that for a proper rest policy not in the books?:ok:

We have all driven a car beyond our ability to stay awake and the same thing happens in the cockpit. In a perfect world you would go to work and fly fully refreshed and ready for a 12 hr duty day but some of the time that doesn't happen. It is much safer to take a nap than tough it out and try to stay awake. Personally I flew planes that flew during the day but when forced to fly all nighters when junior called in sick a lot. I just could not be alert on all nighters and that is not safe. I know it is unfair for the reserve guy. I don't know how the all nighter guys do it.

Cellphone...'airplane mode'...alarm set...'vibrate' mode...shirt pocket= no worries!

AIRBUBBA


" Most modern Boeings n airbusses too have a feature which requires Pilot Attention if theres no input in the FMC "

LMAO LMFAO

Are you for real ???????????? :ugh:

hahahahahahahahahahaha I gotta share this one with the boys

lol

I remember an article in Playboy back in the Seventies about this topic. they cited a TWA 747 crew who slept half way across the Atlantic and those were the days of three man cockpits !

I could launch off with a very Seventies sexist joke about the flight attendants calling every 15 minutes but I shall refrain.:mad:

I've been told that several Boeing Jets will display an EICAS message if there is no crew input for a certain period of time.

This is not true?

I dunno what all the fuss is about... both pilots asleep happens and there are approved procedures to help alleviate it.

Click the following link to the UK CAA Safety Regulation Group: A Review of In-flight Napping Strategies (Updated 2003)

The 747-400 has a Crew Alertness Monitor. It will generate an Eicas message "Pilot input" required when no input has been detected. A press of the FMC, a brief click of the microphone, or an auto-pilot input clears the message.

If the message is not cleared, ie u are sleeping. The message gives and aural warning, and if it is still ignored I think it gives a constant aural warning. Not too sure tbh. As to date I have never seen it go beyond "pilot input".

So far. :P

777 Does also. :ok:

Hi Guys,
I'm glad that this subject has been raised. I am working towards a professional flying career but havent got as far as the MCC course yet!:ugh: I was always worried about that aspect of the job - is it generally accepted for non-augmented crews to do the power nap thing (so long as one person stays awake)? Do airlines acknowledge that this may, at times, be necessary? I read the CAA document and it seems that they accept this practice under certain circumstances...
I just imagine a 3am start going from Manchester to calcutta or some other far flung destination - how does one stay awake through the monotony of the cruise?
I work 24 hour shifts in my current job (yes, I know it is against EWTD - we're working on that!), and I know how debilitating fatigue can be....:bored:
Thanks guys!:ok:
P.S. before some pundit says "if you dont like long hours, dont do the job" - I know about the long hours etc - but I like flying!!!!

There is no doubt that this occurs from time to time, some people fall asleep very easily and others don't. Personally I simply cannot nod off unless lying flat and basically in bed, believe me I have tried. However I have flown with (and know outside flying) some people who can fall asleep with incredible ease and are gone in a few seconds without even knowing it and seem powerless to stop it. Put two people like that together and the chances that both will be asleep at some point on a long night flight are pretty high I should think.