Show me the money! AA pilots opener ;-)
 

American pilots ask for pay increase of 53 percent
Fort Worth Star-Telegam, October 24, 2007
American Airlines' pilots have asked for a hefty boost in pay and benefits, a proposal that analysts said would likely lead to long and arduous contract negotiations at the world's largest airline.
The proposal, presented to the airline Tuesday, requests a one-time raise that would restore pilot salaries to 1992 levels, when adjusted for inflation. If approved by May 2008, that would mean a raise of about 53 percent.
The union also asked for future annual raises of 6 percent and annual cost-of-living increases, and a signing bonus that totals 15 percent of a pilot's earnings between July 21, 2006, when talks began, and the effective date of the new contract.
Labor leaders said the proposal restores purchasing power that pilots have lost since 1992 to pay cuts and inflation. They point out that American's executives have enjoyed a substantial increase in pay in recent years while pilot earnings have fallen.
"Inflation has killed our purchasing power," said Karl Schricker, an American pilot and spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents the 12,000 pilots at the Fort Worth-based airline. "Senior management, meanwhile, has seen theirs go up over 500 percent."
Airline officials said they were reviewing the proposal. But they stressed that any significant increase in pay would likely hurt the company's competitive position.
"At first glance, it appears the items they've proposed would dramatically increase our pilot costs, which would make us even less competitive," spokeswoman Tami McLallen said. "And some of the things they've asked for are unprecedented."
The contract talks are being closely watched by the industry. American is the first major hub carrier to negotiate a new deal with pilots since the wave of bankruptcies and restructuring after 9-11 that dramatically cut employee wages and benefits. Already struggling with the rapid rise in fuel prices, airlines are worried that steeper labor costs will jeopardize the industry's turnaround.
In 2003, when American was on the brink of bankruptcy, pilots approved concessions that slashed average pay by 23 percent, saving the airline about $660 million annually and allowing it to avoid a Chapter 11 filing. Since then, American has returned to profitability, with six straight profitable quarters.
So far this year, American has earned $573 million in profit. Union leaders argue that the financial turnaround means that it's time for the airline to restore pilots' pay. And they say that their proposal would not significantly boost the airline's costs.
According to the union, the deal would increase the total cost of transporting one seat one mile by about a half-cent. That would be about a 4 percent increase, and would still give the airline lower costs than Continental Airlines, Delta Air Lines and US Airways.
"American has been able to absorb the cost of fuel and still earn millions in profits," Schricker said. "They could certainly absorb this modest increase."
McLallen said it was too early for the airline to provide a detailed analysis of the proposal's impact on costs.
One analyst was skeptical. William Swelbar, a researcher for the International Center for Air Transport at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said it would be "pretty hard for [American] to get their arms around this."
He said the proposed 6 percent raises, plus cost-of-living adjustments, are "unheard of" in the industry today.
"It's been an awful long time since we've seen raises like this for anyone," said Swelbar, who has worked in the airline industry for nearly 30 years, both for unions and management.
He predicted that the proposal signaled that pilots are ready to endure long and difficult bargaining over the new contract.
"It's seems to me that this is inviting a very long and arduous negotiation," he said. "And that might be their strategy."
Labor leaders, however, said the proposal is reasonable and are hopeful that talks will be swift.
"We understand the need to be competitive," Schricker said. "This allows us to keep a cost advantage, and we don't see why we can't move quickly on it."
In May, the union submitted a pay proposal that included a 30 percent raise as well as signing bonuses -- a plan that was rejected by the airline. Two months later, union members elected new leaders who promised to take a more aggressive negotiating stance. Talks, which had formally begun more than a year ago, essentially restarted with new pilot negotiators.
Schricker said the new pay plan reflects the desires of pilots, which were documented in a survey this summer.
"They just want to get back what they've lost," he said.
The proposal would also:
Give pilots holiday pay for work on 10 scheduled holidays, including Christmas, Labor Day and Super Bowl Sunday. The current contract doesn't provide holiday pay.
Increase vacation time and change sick time to "personal time" that can be used for any reason, including illness.
Implement an unspecified annual bonus plan for pilots based on the company's performance.
Eliminate a one-year probation period for new hires.
The deal, which would last until Jan. 4, 2011, would also greatly quicken the pace of negotiations for the next contract. It specifies that talks would begin 180 days before the contract opened for changes and that mediation could begin 120 prior to that days if the two sides couldn't reach an agreement.
It would allow the union to strike if a deal isn't reached by the contract's amendable date.
Currently, talks at American and other airlines are conducted under federal laws that allow for significant mediation and "cooling-off" time before unions can strike. That time often extends years beyond the contract's final date.
The pilots' proposal also asks the airline to pay all of the union's direct negotiating costs. Currently those expenses are shouldered by the union.
The pilot plan did not address scheduling or productivity. Airline executives have insisted that productivity gains must accompany any pay increases. Labor leaders said those issues will be addressed in future proposals.
The pilots are just one of three major contracts that American will be negotiating over the next few years. Next month, the airline will begin talks with the union that represents mechanics and other ground workers. And flight attendants will begin their negotiations in March.
Shares of AMR Corp., American's parent (ticker: AMR), closed at $24.65, up $1.34, in trading Tuesday.

Show Me The Money

I sincerely hope that the AA pilots are winners in this.

I still blame them for the "B" scale, maybe they can make things right and get the world of airline pilots back up to the flight levels, instead of skimming by at the treetops (no reference implied to BDL ;-0 )

There is no comparison between pay claims by AA pilots and pilots in Australia.

AA pilots took a number of very significant pay cuts over the years to save their airline. AA also furloughed many pilots, some of whom have still not been recalled.

The US IR scene can not be compared to Australia. For starters, Australian workers have far greater protection.

Have you heard of work choices??????

Air Ace, I agree with your post, however, "supply and demand" forces will dictate a significant payrise for Oz pilots.

Charliethewonderdog.
Intimately. :E

From memory, the AA pilots took pay cuts in excess of 25% and up to 50% to save their employer airline.

Going Boeing.
Correct - and the laws of supply and demand will eventually establish and stabilise pilot wages in Australia, as it should in a free market economy.

However, one can not compare the US and Australian airline industrial arrangements.

Perhaps a better solution might be for American Airlines management to sell off the airline, piece by piece, to other carriers such as Continental or Delta, thereby solving AA's pilots demands altogether.
Nothing like stapling the AA guys to the bottom of someone elses senority list to get their immediate attention...they would forget all about a 53% pay raise...:}

411A, you certainly are an interesting fellow.
Why do all of your posts try to antagonise most thinking people?

Oh dear...terribly sorry Monday if you don't like my comments, but I find it truly remarkable that already well paid pilots (AA) would ask for a totally unreasonable 53% pay raise.
Lets face facts here.
AA pilots agreed to lower pay a few years ago to (in most part) protect their company pensions but to now expect 53% more is rather unreasonable...perhaps they would now like to give up their pensions to achieve that 53%...most likely not.:ugh:

Why would you sell off a profitable airline? Making a profit for six straight quarters is proof that the trend is positive and now is the time to get back your concessions. After all it's the guys up front that saved the day after 9/11 so time to get the just reward. If you think that 53% is outrageous then keep in mind that our last contract here in ex-commie land gave us a 50.5% increase in wages over three years. It's doable. Go for it!:ok:

Some of us took a 100% pay cut to save the airline from chapter 11:

Furlough.....

Oh dear...terribly sorry Monday if you don't like my comments, but I find it truly remarkable that already well paid pilots (AA) would ask for a totally unreasonable 53% pay raise.

Where are the well paid AA pilots? Maybe my vision needs testing again, because I haven't seen any lately.

Hardly the time to ask for such a great rise when the financial firms that pay for their employees to travel are making massive cutbacks on staff and expenses.

To appear credible though, they should have started at the 500% that management achieved for themselves - at least while unrealistic, management would realise that everyone works hard and they must appear to be more equitable.

Check Airman, 411A lives in the past (aah, the good old days) and makes comments based on that era.

I don't for one moment think that AAL pilots expect to get anywhere near 53%. They're just publicising a very valid point.

Coalface workers in many industries have taken pay cut after pay cut only to see senior managers take raise after raise.

53% does seem excessive indeed, but in light of the bonuses the paper pushers have been getting lately, is it really that unreasonable?

BTW, what's the source of this information? Hope it's credible and we're not wasting out time...

He said the proposed 6 percent raises, plus cost-of-living adjustments, are "unheard of" in the industry today.

Indeed it may be, but then again, there are many many things in aviation today, that were unheard of a few years ago. The indignities at "security" checkpoints, the low wages nowadays...Ten years ago, if someone told me it would be this way now, I'd call them ridiculous.

All the major airlines have changed in pretty significant ways over the years. In all the cases, pilots (and other astff) have increased productivity and reduced income. Now that the companies are turning profit, it's time for us to reap the fruits of the sacrifices we've all made.

Hmmm, if their demand for 53% is justified in today's market, that must mean they are being paid 53% less than they could get elsewhere, otherwise called the market rate.

There's a global pilot shortage.

Time to walk, maybe? Mobility goes with the territory of being an airline pilot, just as it does in some other professions.

Of course the administrative snouts in the trough are an affront while others suffer. Unfortunately it's an affront that's irrelevant to this issue.

I sincerely hope they win. It would be a welcome change to see T&C's on the way up again.

This industry is not short of cash, and it's time the ruthless got a dose of their own medicine. It's pilots who deliver safety and efficiency everyday. We're the ones who make their shoestring operations hold together, and pull them out of the poo when the chips are down.

I might be a lone voice, but I really wish the guys at AA well. I hope that just for once we get some recognition for the ridiculous rosters and the constant fatigue. I'm sick to death of people within our own profession grinning with shadenfreude when yet another great aviation job gets shafted by some private equity shark.

It's high time we drew a line in the sand.

Mick, its never going to happen mate.!
Drawing a line in the sand will not work, except to speed up the demise of AA.
Look, the owners of the airline I work for expects to make 8 percent on their investment, and they do, thats why they are the most profitable airline in the world.
I bet london to a brick that the owners of AA make nowhere near that on their investment and quite frankly they would be better closing up shop, selling the a/c and the real estate and putting the money into a cash management account.
I do sympathise with the guys, but being profitable for a year and a half after years and years of losses does not even begin to cut into the losses already incurred.
They will never ever get back to the good old days, its just not going to happen and as much as people disagree with 411A, he is right, either bite the bullet and except what you are getting now or get out and start again somewhere else.
:uhoh:

As a continuation of some media articles last week about the billion dollars (+) in United Airlines' Frequent Flier cash fund (estimated by one analyst to be worth billions), how much money is kept in American Airlines' Frequent Flier fund, and were these funds detached from AA-as happened at United-and put into a bank 'vehicle' somewhere?

Its not the good old days, but some people really need to review the past.
IF 9-11 hadn't happened, my stock options would have been worth well over a quarter of a million dollars.

A 737 captain would be getting over 200k a year.

retirement would be worth 60 percent of that.

Our health care would be better. We would be flying less and enjoying life more.

9-11 was used by some ''corporate terrorists'' to screw pilots...lose your pension, half pay and more...YOU HAVE TOO or the airline shuts down. BUT WE MUST PAY MANAGEMENT A 30 MILLION BONUS.

I'm with the AA boys on this one. FIGHT and get stuff like "the good old days" back.

And you guys who took jobs with the start ups, flying captain on an A320 for 95k...you are part of the problem and not the solution. Virgin, Skybus and the lot...

To the AA guys...save some bucks for a strike...it won't last too long with BUSYBODYBUSH in the white house.

BUT TAKE OUR profession back.

Faheel - a voice of reality that sadly wil be like the loons cry, a faint call in the wilderness. Sad to say the recent hard times do not seem to have induced the slightest bit of reality into the AA pilots. Rather it seems to be - wait for the screw to turn and then we'll get em.
Looking at what the pilots are asking for roughly equates to the entire annual profit of AA. Pilots want 600 odd mill and then some and airline made 580 odd year to date. This is so typical of the self important pilot "we are the world" mentality. Guys, wake up and figure how you'll do in the morning with no reservation clerks, check in people, baggage handers and the other poor souls who are all just overhead.
You want a long term well paid job you need a company making serious long term cash. 5 quarters out of twenty does not cut it. Look at the pilots making real cash, UPS, FEDEX and Southwest and look at their employers profits over the last 5 year compared to AA. It tells the story.
If you can get it, go for it but your regulated monopoly is gone and you are just going to have to live in todays world. Negotiating ploy or not, asking for that kind of cash is just making you look dumb or stupid, take your pick.
20driver

In the deregulated environment AA tripled in size and made money paying wages like these.
Oil went from $10 a barrel up to $90 a barrel and the airlines are still making money. Their costs can go up and they can still make money. But, maybe they would have to charge something more for a ticket? The AA pilots will probably not get what they ask for, but I imagine they will get more than if they went in asking to start negotiating from where they are today. More than they would get if they sent faheel or 20driver in to negotiate some new concessions.
BTW AA grew and made money at the old wages. The pilots are asking for what they made in 1992. The managers are making substantially more than they did in 92.
The wages will be going up again. And the line of guys out there who are gladly willing to sell their services for less and less seems to be a bit smaller now. It will not jut be AA asking for more. The only reason wages are where they are right now is the use of the bankruptcy courts. Now it is our turn to get some of that back.
At around $190 an hour for a 737 Captain, Southwest Airlines seems to be making money too.

AA has never made money on a five year average and only grew as a result of being a protected player in a government-rigged system. They could pay plenty because people had no choice and the prices were fixed. Airlines simply passed along what every they paid and the customer swallowed it.
That is all gone and what is really amazing is that the AA pilots don’t get it. The whip sawing of wages in the long run hurts the pilots and the industry. Asking for stupid amounts of money you are not going to get makes you look stupid. Work it out, 3% a year compounded for 10 years is a lot more than 50 per cent one year and handing it back 2 years later.
Forgot what it was, it isn’t that way anymore for pilots and a lot of other people. At one time there was a group of engineers called coal gasification engineers and they earned more than any other group. The world switched to natural gas and bingo, out on their butts.
The only thing that will change this is if enough people stop entering the pilot job market. Fact is being a pilot is a relatively easy job with a low entry level for what the job pays. It has never being easier to train to be a pilot and adjusted for inflation I suspect never cheaper.
The bankruptcy laws have hurt pilots but mostly because of seniority. Construction companies go tits up weekly but do the tradesman take a hit? Hell no, they just sign up with the Big Construction Mark IV when it opens on Monday at the same wages Mark III was paying Friday. Pilots give up that option by tying themselves to the company and its frequently useless management. Hate to say it but the best thing that could happen is for a lot of these companies to go bust and let their gates go to new companies that can run things, make money and pay a market wage.
I wish the AA guys well but they clearly don’t get it. It ain’t what it was and it never will be.
20driver

I should have said accept the reality of what the airline world
has become today.
The problem is ( for all of us I might add) is that the travelling public will no longer tolerate the fares they paid even a few years back.
In those days airfares were high, costs were high, no one heard of LCC.s then (save for Southwest) and there were far fewer airlines. Salaries were higher because costs were passed onto Joe Public.
Fast forward to the present time and we are where we are today.
LCC,s have driven down costs by paying less across the board for everything except for fuel, and as that rises they are going to want to drive costs down in other areas even further.
Its not just the low cost carriers American has to compete against either. On the international front Asian airlines have newer a/c, a better product and much lower costs, just look at travel magazine surveys that all show that foreign airlines pretty much sweep the board in customer satisfaction I don't remember seeing any US airline anywhere near the top 5 or 6 , so where do you think the travelling public are going to put their hard earned bucks when they go overseas?
At the high yield end it is vital for any airline to provide the best product to attract the big money and from what I see by and large the US majors come up short.
So salaries are always going to be under pressure, small pay rises are going to be the order of the day, and sad to say, the good old days are long gone, never to return. If I were just starting out in this industry right now the honest truth is I probably would'nt
And that folks is my take on it :{

People don't get it.

Jet Balu, Skyburst, Virginal and the like are run on the cheap...and it always catches up with you. Remember Valentine's day?

Southwest hedged fuel very well and that is why they are profitable.

OIL is now over 90 bucks a barrel...and you don't think that will get passed on to the consumer?

And with the huge delays in the US system, cheap will not win out.

American pilots will get a good piece of the pie and it will start the ball rolling for all pilots.

Imagine the ad: Virgin pays their captains 95k....we pay twice as much...do you really think you will be better off with a cheap pilot?

This is so typical of the self important pilot "we are the world" mentality.


Would you prefer to fight back, or just take it up the arse trying not to look stupid?

Take your pick..:yuk:

What is your problem with AA pilots Mr. 20driver?
Did AA turn you down for a job? :confused:

Actually AA more than tripled in size since the end of deregulation. AA never even flew international routes prior to deregulation.

Slot? Please do not be so ignorant. Domestic US only 4 airports are slot controlled. Perhaps the international stuff on some routes yes, but the bulk of the AA flying is not slot controlled.

And Southwest makes money paying these kinds of wages.

Excellent website for the rest of the story:

http://www.apanegotiations.com/

Junior Man - Edited slot to gate - and try getting one at any major North American airport. They are all locked up.

Nothing against AA pilots, one fixes my plane and I ski with a few every year.

I find it sad to see lots of very hard working airline employees getting screwed over. My IR examiner had to go back to work at the FAA after having his USAIR pension stolen. But so have many others in this economy. Piloting a plane is simply not the leveraged position it once was. Nothing to do with the pilots as much as the airline industry. It, like so many others has changed, and it will never be what it was.

The pilot unions have had their heads in the sand for years. They knew the pensions were grossly underfunded but did nothing about it. Asking for 50% increases is more of the same old same old.

I wish the AA pilots good luck, starting with that position they are going to need it.


20driver

Actually most of the pension underfunding was due to the dramatic fall in the stock market post 9/11 and then the subsequent lowering of interest rates to keep the economy moving. So the value of the assets suddenly became less and the amount needed to be in the account became substantially more due to the low interest rates.

Gates? Most of the LCC and other new entrant carriers seem to have little problems getting them. They have also been awarded slots at slot controlled airport as well.

Maybe piloting a plane is going to be increasing in value, at least if pilots will start to realize that it is at least worth what it was in 1992.

Pension plans were not grossly underfunded...but they were underfunded...indeed I would have settled for 75 percent of my promised pension instead of 25 percent as the PBGC will cover.

Slots were done away with in the domestic US market by act of congress around the year 2000...that is why so many airports are overscheduled and have such huge delays...no corresponding increase in infrastructure...GIVE ME THE CAB any day.

Junior man is quite right...Southwest is now the best paying airline in the US...they make a profit due to fuel hedging.

for all those who say pilots have to be realistic about pay...how come airline management pay and perks has gone up while pilot pay has gone down? Doesn't management have to be realistic...its all about negotiations!

1992 pay, compensated for 15 years of buying power would be just fine.

With the possible exceptions of UAL and DAL, managements pay has gone up because they have been able to keep the airline actually going in the face of a recession, high oil prices, and without their efforts, many pilots today, whom are employeed, would have long been out of a job.
Take AA for example.
Dispite massive losses over the last few years, they are now making a small profit.
Perhaps it would have been best for the senior management to have simply sold off the unprifitable routes that AA had, and concentrated on just a few...and promptly tossed out on the street the malcontents who now seemingly want to push AA back into the red, once again.
For AA to remain competative, costs must be contained, and cash stored up for both fleet renewal and future downturns in the economy...to do otherwise is extremely foolish, from a sound business perspective.
Most line pilots today have long forgotten economics 101 (provided they even understood it in the first place) and generally find great difficulty in balancing their own checkbooks, let alone how to tell management about financial matters with the company.
In short, the AA pilots can go pound sand, and I fully expect AA management to tell them likewise.

In fact, I would invite the AA pilots to go promptly on strike, and see their airline go just as promptly belly up...for it would serve them right for being such fools in the first place.
The Sky Gods at AA deserve nothing less.

American Airlines opener
 

Both United and American Airlines have elected more agressive union leaders, in hopes of regaining what they had. I hope for them it works, but I fear the industry has permanently changed.
It's extremely vexing to see management paying themselves outrageous raises and stiffing the workers. They seem impossible to embarass.
The opener, as reported by the press with the usual exaggerated comments, reminds one of the opener from the late, lamented Pan Am a few decades ago. Pilots were ticked at having their cars vandalized at the JFK car park, so demanded the company buy each captain a car for his commute.
"Pan Am Pilots Demand Company Cars!" was the headline in the tabloids.
I hope the American pilots have better luck than the Pan Am folks!
The old saw, "What's a pilot worth? --Whatever he can negotiate!" seems less and less of a joke,nowadays.

It is what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

Regarding company cars...I heard that BA pilots get picked up in a limo from home. Does anyone know if this is true?


AND GUYS, don't let THEM use the 90 bucks/bl oil price stop you...the oil companies don't cut prices.

Dunno about BA, but I've been picked by limo for many years...doesn't everybody?:rolleyes:

No? What a shame...:E

AA pilots deserve a significant raise after that 23.5% cut in 03. The big bonuses in stock to the executives have shown they can afford to compensate them for their sacrifices. Arpey needs to fix this before he forces them to shut the place down to get their fair share. Management gave the employees a big slap in the face with the bonuses and they must do something before angry employees retaliate, with every right to.

I see it as a fundamental lack of good leadership. I can't say to my employees, "You do the work and I take all the profit." It's neither ethical nor moral. I'm pretty sure the executives saw it coming though. You can't be increasing your own wages and cutting everyone else's and expect folks to sit back and say "ok, fine with me." If that's the way management sees it, they can go and fly all 700+ planes themselves (after getting the appropriate ratings and certificates of course).

Most of you guys are missing the point.
Pilots in the U.S have hit rock bottom. Since 911 our inflation adjusted wages and work rules are about what they were in the 1980's.
Trust me. We will get our money. You never get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate! We WILL shut this baby down and we WILL get our raise! It is a mathematical certainty. Just wait and see what 10,000 pissed of pilots can accomplish on the picket line.
It's not a matter of IF but When...This is war!