Don't worry, they'll get over it, they always have...:)

We Americans are more concerned about what's around the layover hotel and where's a good place to buy a boat than them 'R/T procedures'.

It might sound terribly cool, Bubba, and some of the recent American arrivals in this neck of the woods use similar "terminology", which might be OK in a monocultural/monolingual environment. However, even if you ignore the ATC implications, it's a recipe for confusion, even disaster in an airline with thirty+ nationalities among its pilots.

Nowhere in the english-speaking aviation world (or even in the plain english-speaking world) does "in the hole" have any meaning, so the next reply outside the USA would be: "Say again?"
In my experience of the USA (E. & W. coast) much of the ATC chatter is generated by locals trying to sound slick, and everyone else trying to understand them. Not clever in an international environment, and best reserved for national frequencies.

arrogant
 

1-if the controller is arrogant like this unable to handle stress he is in the wrong job: speak slowly,clearly with standard phraseo and it will be ok;we are not all from new-york city.
2-with the coming EASA every pilot will have to pass an english test(PPL also if I am correct): level1(very bad)-to level6(native language).if you pass level 6 it is valid for good,level 4 (valid 3 years)will be required(about first certificate of english) for commercial pilots AND ATC controllers.But how will be taken seriously this test as aviation grews up and coming short of pilots?that's the question

Sad Yanks run slipshod over everybody. Small wonder we are hated all over the world. In my flights to the mainland, I have come across zillions of instances whereby foreign crew with hesitant English were bullied, hollered at and ridiculed by the dregs of our land who do not understand ICAO phraseology or standard practices. Even in beloved Aloha land on HNL tower we have one or two of these big and thick headed miscreants.

much of the ATC chatter is generated by locals trying to sound slick

ATC - Speedbird 123, contact Denver Centre on 125 point zero.
BAW123 - Denver Centre, 125 point zero, good day

ATC - States Air 124, contact Denver Center on 125 point zero.
SA124 - Twenny Five Nuttin, you got it.

As George Bernard Shaw said, we're two countries separated by a common language, shame many US pilots don't learn aviation English and stick to discipline on the RT. It's a proven cause of accidents and incidents.

Now, any Air France pilots here .....

Even in beloved Aloha land on HNL tower we have one or two of these big and thick headed miscreants.

True, but HNL is waaaaaay better than anywhere else in this country I can think of; having Japanese flight schools operating GA out of the primary airport in their Class B airspace has probably desensitized them to the Englasian language group a bit more than the average mainland ATC goon.

Some of the controllers in New York might feel that New York is the center of the world, if not the universe.

Years ago as an FO I once experimented (only one time) and said on the radio "Roger, wilco" and the Captain turned and said something like "What? Roger wilco?" with a smirk.

probably not 100% topic related:

I remember listening to the A380 making its way to JFK several months ago.

Lufthansa kept correcting the tower controller callsign from "heavy" to "super"

tower kept repeating "super" back in such a condescending tone to the Lufthansa crew...made me cringe, the effort from both sides to outdo eachother.

(someone else here must have heard that exchange)

BC, No but Super is correct as per the FAA wake turbulence policy.:rolleyes:

Super is quite right for the A380...but with that thinking I should be superman and not fat man, right? ;-)

I agree with Wiley's Post (forgive the pun...I hope someone gets it though!)

I recall an ALPA safety conference in Washington DC about 10 years ago.

ATC from Narita tower begged all US pilots to use correct RT phrases.
He used the example of "fire engine". To an american this is the fire truck, CFR equipment, the red thing with hoses (though some places it is not red and it is white or chartreuse)...his controllers couldn't understand if the pilot was reporting: an engine fire, or he was requesting a fire engine.


When I first started flying for a major airline on the east coast (I believe the same airline as Mr. Wiley) it was painful to hear the controllers speak. LGA ground had the most brooklyn of brooklyn accents.


My peers in boston hated the way I spoke and I didn't have a clue to what they were saying half the time. (I am from the wild west of the US).

I recall one bostonian in ground school confusing the whole class as he requested, over and over without getting the message through: I need new chawts....new chawts....

the instructor kept saying, what are you talking about?

I finally translated: he is requesting a new CHART, as in MAP (not to be confused with manifold absolute pressure, or missed approach point).

The bostonian then started screaming that all of us didn't know how to speak English and that We were wrong about the letter "R".

I hope we can all be a little more precise. Also with numbers: 4 is FOWER for a reason. 5 is FIFE for a reason and NINER IS NINER cuz its cool as hell.

You all be careful out there.
and
No English, no tiki!

"Thirty-four, on the hole"...
 

I know ICAO is like the UN general assembly...:eek:, but please follow ICAO standard English phraseology ALWAYS, even if English isnt your mother-toungue, and as long as you have international traffic in your area of operation.
It's terrible to have Americans(:confused:), Russians, Greeks, Spanish (including Central/South America), French, Germans, Brazilians (in Brazilian Portuguese) and so on (many more other diverse countries across the worl) speaking their own native languages when other pilots (of different nationalities) are in the area understanding "JUST NOTHING" of what's going on around them.
Is this good for SAFETY?:ugh: Aren't we global now?:rolleyes:

Amounts to the same thing?



OK, I know, hat, coat, umbrella......

Heard the tape before. Disgraceful behaviour. No other way to describe it.

And the March 2008 introduction of the ICAO-mandated English Language Proficiency Certificate as a legal document, without which one is unable to fly, has been met with derision by whom?

Yes, the good ol' boys of the USA.

Now I'm no Yank basher. Yes, it's true they can't play rugby (or cricket) any better than they can surf, with the exception of perhaps one or two exceptionally talented individuals. But that doesn't make them dumb-assed.

This incident, on the other hand, and the refusal of some to acknowledge the hand played by the heroes of New Yawk's Ground guy (loser!) is cause for considerable dismay.

What is not so surprising is the refusal of the FAA to acknowledge the ICAO designed and required ELPC as a basis for reducing miscommunications between crews and/or ATC.

The Yanks will not adhere to it. They won't test their own crews. Can you believe that? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Even CNN cannot get it right.

"Go fig-uh."

That gawddamned (goddamned?) Chuck Yeager has a lot to answer for (or should that be 'ta'aswrfer'?), as two, and it may be three generations of American pilots have tried to emulate his laid back style whenever they get a microphone to their lips.

Someone commented that it wasn't good enough for foreign pilots to have learned a set of phrases. That shows a total lack of understanding (or I expect exposure) of what's happening in aviation the very big world beyond the borders of the US of A. The whole point of standard R/T phraseology is just that - to allow pilots with a less than perfect command of the language to cope by knowing and understanding a set of standard phrases. (Their accents might sometimes be thick, but from what I've seen, (or heard), the Chinese aviation English schools drum standard phraseology into their students to the point where most of them know the standard calls better than most native English speaking pilots.)

It's not just a great advantage for foreign language speakers, but for native English speakers as well when transmission/reception is poor, or a call is blocked by another transmission and some of the controller's words might be missed. If it's a standard phrase that the controller is using, you can afford to miss a word or two because you will read back the necessary parts of the call using the correct, standard phraseology yourself and if you got it wrong, the controller will pick up the error.

Maybe someone with friends at CNN might suggest they do another piece on the standard of US controllers' (and pilots'?) English?)

Language
 

Seem to remember that when I did my FAA CPL the RT licence was applied for and arrived with the Student Pilot Cert without any requirement for any sort of test....
But you have to sympathise with these guys for whom English is very far from being their first language and then going to JFK where I sometimes wonder what language they are speaking as it sometimes sounds like something other than English ( sometimes not of this world ) :}

From March next year it wil be mandatory for all new pilots and controllers to pass examinations in Aviation English to ICAO Level 4. This is on an international basis.

Silberfuchs. Unfortnately, there is a French Law that requires controllers to speak French to French aircraft where possible.

Silberfuchs
The best comment so far!