Nice words Homepage, and thank you for emphasising the human side of being on the receiving end. I would like to think that I have a sympathetic ear and gentle reply when you are feeling jaded, which I hope I can sense by the tone in the voice. What you say to your colleague on the flightdeck may be just as vehement as my outburst in the tower or ops room. As we watch the swan gliding gently past on the river it is as well we can't see what's going on below the waterline!

i was not saying any names jarvis769169 as not to get a extra helping of torn strips off me :O but she dose make for good fun when you are not on the receving end ;)

rampman:ok:

This whole thread is very interesting. Can I ask a question? How often do pilots get their RT checked? (Sorry that was 2 questions!).

I get mine checked every 3 months by an LCE with the big check annually. Perhaps pilots should get their RT checked regularly as sometimes it is appalling and trying to get a reasonable readback sometimes is impossible. Otherwise the rest of you, except Monarch Man, are great. Thank You.

See my Q on ATC forum re hdg and Fl and degrees - interesting responses.

The answer to your question - every 6 months on LPC, every year on OPC, line check and every time with a trg pilot

For Monarch Man

I was interested in your comments about 'The recent introduction of an additional "degrees" comment requirement onto radar heading read backs is another classic case of an additional layer of phraseology that serves no real purpose, after all, radar heading instructions are proceeded by the qualifier "fly heading xxx" or "turn left/right onto heading xxx" where does adding "degrees" improve flight safety or SA?'

Pilots confusing a level and heading instruction i.e climbing or descending to the heading rather than the cleared level used to account for 11% of level busts in the UK. Following the introduction of the adding the word degrees to headings ending in 0 the same error now accounts for less than 1%

Perhaps I'm missing something but it looks to me like the use of this additional phraseology has served a purpose

Slaphead - please copy post this on the ATC thread re hdgs & degrees etc
Thanks

ahhhh if only things were that simple.

Could it also be a product of the mindset of both pilots and ATCO's alike that this issue has been highlighted?
Could it be a product of the processes at work?
Is it a product of the increased awareness from CP's down to the average line pilot, along with numerous NAT's publications, safety notices, and company aircrew memoranda that has served to improve the appreciation of the nature of the level bust issue.

All this shows is the limitation of the system currently in place, it also highlights why phraseology has its limitations..because the word "degrees" is open to misunderstanding.

Then again what would I know, I'm clearly a majority of one in this thread.

One thing is for sure. Next time there is a Monarch plane nearby, either on the ground or in the air, I will get my aircraft away in a hurry. No-one will know anything about what he is doing or where he is going :ugh:

There is a total lunatic in my current company who doesn't know anything about procedures, airlaw, atc, or r/t. Funny enough, he is ex Monarch as well..... do they train you guys to be dangerous or do you take special classes?? :sad: :sad: :sad:

And Monarch Man:
Regard your comment about me not being able to compose a sentence right, then let me inform you that I am not native English... I am one of the "imports" but would not expect you to be flexible enough to accept my lessor skills in your language. Types like you never are :hmm:

I agree that it is probably a combination of all those things - a general hightened awareness. But whether we agree or not with any particular R/T procedure, may I please ask that we keep our disagreements away from the airwaves.

Perhaps it is why he left Monarch?

With respect of the "import" tag you have labeled yourself with, I am glad you feel able to share. You are right however, types such as myself are never satisfied, if we were, it would show an arrogance and disrespect for the dynamic and challenging environment we all choose to work in.

Is it beyond the bounds of balance Up and Down for you to share with us the company that you work for? It is abundantly clear you are happy to cast baseless aspersions in the direction of my employer, without offering any substance to your opinions. I wonder if I may have the opportunity to respond in a similar baseless fashion?

Speke, for the record, I think you ATCO boys/girls do a magnificent job, inspite the many ill-conceived and poorly implemented procedures we all try to abide by.

Stupendous!
 

:p This is Fanatstic ! Both Magplug and Monarch Man have been given RED cards by the many referees on this site, and QUITE RIGHTLY SO, over their non-adherance to plain speaking Standard R/T. One or two Man controllers are on Yellows, but the one of those (Female) has retired, so breath easy chaps and chapessess ( Provided that's the correct one )???
So I propose that we introduce for one day, as a partial experiment to see if Plug & MM were right in their assumption that standard R/T is a P*ss take, A "Shakespere delivery Day", or a "Roman numeral Day". What fun we could have? " Monarch victor india, victor, india fly heading india india victor and climb to FL x-ray victor india india india", or " Verily I say unto thee Shuttle 2915 holdeth shorteth of 24 right less the peril of an incurrsion be thrust upon thee"!
What a spectacle it could prove to be, with aircraft going around from all sorts of runway directions, climbing and descending to very odd levels. The admission price for the Aviation Viewing Park would be at a premium!
However I don't like death and destruction much, so I think I'll just stick to what I know best, and to what I know works to everybodies satisfaction usually.
Bye the bye, it may not be too long before 24L does have an ILS! Will all hell be let loose then???? (No because it'll be 23L!!) Happy Days:ok:

MonarchMan, I appreciate your understanding for the dynamic environment we all live in, but if you are that flexible i just wonder why it is such a problem for you to try an contribute to the attempt to increase flightsafety for all of us. If this can be done by helping atc with adding a single extra word to your message, then you should be happy to do that with your overwelming flexibility for changes and challenges.
Maybe you are so good that you never make errors, but some of us are not, and the error could be made on the ground as well within ATC, but no matter where it is done, the chances for correcting an error is so much greater if people work together and not agains each other.

I do think that refusing to add that little extra, even when required to do so by the local procedures, DO show arrogance and disrespect for the dynamic and challenging environment we all choose to work in.

With regards to the company I work for, then No, I have no intentions of using them as an alias for my private oppinions in here. I doubt any company will be thrilled about being part of a discussion as the one going on here :hmm:.

Whislt we're at it....


Might i add that any heading ending with '5' (275') does not require the suffix degrees!


270' = two even zero degrees

275' = two seven five


I hear too many times ATC issuing clearances with the suffix degrees when it isnt needed....


Also cardinal points can be addressed as their names - North 360 - south 180 etc etc......


two penneths worth...done and dusted!:E :E

Thank you, please:} :}

Longchop

I agree that we don't need degrees. See the forum in ATC started by FLYB.
I don't say it even if it ends with a zero.
As FLYB has stated..interesting opinions.

"With regards to the company I work for, then No, I have no intentions of using them as an alias for my private oppinions in here. I doubt any company will be thrilled about being part of a discussion as the one going on here"

UADO Couldn't agree more, its bad enough reading his childish and arrogant point of view but he goes on to tarnish his company name with such drivel.

If he believes he is so right then I hope he continues his one man crusade during his next line and sim check. Every company has them and it is only a matter of time before they are weeded out.

AA

Just a quick reminder:

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

So, would the sanctimonious/holier than thou brigades please try and remember that when ASSuming that one persons Username means that they actually work for a particular airline. Better still, please stop trying to impress upon us that, because you read it on here, that you are now going to avoid any approaches in your puddlejumper if you hear the callsign of a particular airline behind you. :rolleyes:

Oh, and another thing... if you think what's being described here as a bollocking then you have obviously never been to JFK or EWR where the ground controllers can use a level of verbal violence that has been known to reduce some crews to shivering wrecks in need of PTS counselling. :ooh:

opnot said:
Yes. On my last visit on Monday I was not asked for a second readback.

I understand from your post that not only do you work at MAN ATC but furthermore are not receptive to feedback.

When you ask a pilot for a second readback of the ATC clearance between giving line-up clearance and then issuing the take-off clearance you are introducing a distraction on the flight deck at a critical moment. On most jets the pre-take off checklist is partially run to the point of awaiting line-up clearance. On receipt of the clearance to line-up or T/o the rest of the VA's are then completed. If you introduce a distraction at that point of asking for yet another readback of the departure SID then the crew must stop the checklist and deselect the SOP displayed page on the FMC to confirm the SID and then return to the SOP displayed page and then..... did we do the pre-T/O vital actions.....? 'cos the guy just told us to take off..........? What may seem like a minor thing to you actually introduces a very unwelcome & dangerous distraction for someone else.

The possible departure error of 'Pilot reads-back X but then does Y' exists at all airfields although at very low levels and is usually found to be caused by one pilot having taken the ATC clearance un-monitored by the other.
If you are having a greater problem with this issue at MAN than any other airfield then there must be a good reason for it as the same companies with the same SOP's seem to get on alright everywhere else. Perhaps some smarter analysis of those incidents might reveal shortcomings associated with critical similarities in the design of the SIDS or even something as simple as SID nomenclature. Would I also be correct in saying the 2 (confusing) southbound SID's, HON & LISTO, only exist as two separate departures merely for environmental reasons ?

I have read the replies from MAN ATC to MOR's from my company on this issue and the attitude seems to be 'This is the way we are going to do so live with it'. Frankly, that is where I draw my conclusions about MAN ATC.

What is not needed is the imposition of unilateral fixes with no regard for other more important flight safety areas.

Danny should you allow anyone to use a username that implies they work for a company after all it is pretty irrelevent if they do or don't. On second thoughts I think it is far worse if they don't. It doesn't take too much intelligence to come up with a non aligned original username.
Some people do actually take offence when their company name is hijacked in this way and I thought causing offence was something you discouraged.
I think your response was rather over the top and silly.

man tower
 

i was at gatwick a few years ago and a plane actually tried to land on the taxiway so more info given by both pilot and control the better i say for saftey all round
caulkinpeter;)

Perhaps all of us might like to review our RT procedures by a quick review of CAP 413. Must say I'm fed up to the back teeth of hearing the likes of "THE SPEEDBIRD, THE MIDLAND Etc " I always thought the reply to a clearance to land was not 'cleared to land callsign xxx' but ' Land 24R Callsign xxx'
Perhaps someone might confirm

And there we have it:D far easier to throw baseless accussations about, than back up an opinion based on some cold hard facts.
Thanks up and down, a mature and upfront approach.

Danny, my apologies for upsetting the membership, but I am entitled to an opinion.

Monarch Man, you are not just upsetting the membership with your private opinions. You are upsetting most of the aviators around, because your oppinions and attitudes are a danger to not just all the other people flying around you, but also your passengers.

If you need backup and substance for that statement then go back in this thread and read your own responses, they say it all :ugh:

With regard to Danny's comment, then I will now assume that you have just chosen to steal an alias from Monarch, and that you work in a different outfit (??), but that wouldn't suprise me either. It is impressive that a "global experienced aviator" as youself is not able to review critisism from fellow pilots and ATC controllers.

About being mature...... well, no comments to that one from you!!

Danny: I think your comment about mentioning company names on PPRUNE is fair enough, as it is very bad advertising for a company to be part of a discussion like this, but that said, then PPRUNE should consider not to allow people to hide behind a company alias as well.
You can not allow that, and then forbid comments towards the name afterwards. Either we are anonymous or we are not.
It must be one or another.


"Gravity is just an illusion"

Opera with happy end ?
 

Gonzo said: "Blimey! This is more depressing than any soap opera!...."
:D
....
but is an extraordinary informational one by demonstrating whats going on in several sleeping heads over there on island :rolleyes: :ugh:

Non believers will keep on use UK Manual of Air Traffic Services

Eh? care to clarify that statement, you've lost me there, I asked a perfectly reasonable question, and I asked it in the context of.... which I am still waiting for an answer to. Are you seriously suggesting that my employer offers "special" classes? or turns a blind eye to poor examples of airmanship?
Maybe UP and Down you are attacking my opinions, fair enough, but please don't equate MY OPINIONS with the greater mass of fellow aviators and flight Ops policy at MON.
I have already stated that the use of standard Phraseology, in my opinion, and in the context of establishing oneself on the only available localizer for RWY 24 at MAN, contributes little to SA. At no time have I descended into the kind of finger pointing diatribe, that you seem determined to do, my opinion is my opinion, if you don't like that, perhaps you should start your own country, and introduce your very own thought police, if not, well, its just too bad for you:D
I also stand 100% behind my comments relating to using Phraseology as "one size fits all" solution to level busts and runway incursions, it never has been, and it never will be the main safeguard that so many of the sheep on here seem to believe.

To those who think some rules are rubbish please try to live with them. It’s not your game so you don't have the right to bend or change the rules. If you think obeying rules suck then find another game, read profession.

Of course I think MM is just joking around with those who have bitten the bait with all their teeth, gummy or not. Of course he will readback the correct clearance. He's probably venting here the words spoken inside the flight deck he cannot tell you on the R/T, a la Homepage. I believe it's called winding you all up. Right MM? (for pete's sake man say it's true!!).

Fly safe y'all.

All except waiting for an answer from U and D, and that Phraseology is not the big safety net people seem to be convinced of:ok:

It is with a constant source of amusement and amazement at the holier than thou attitudes expressed on here, and then in the same breath, if you don't fit the concensus view...you assume the persona of someone that is responsible for the Kennedy conspiracy, along the way you've interferred with small boys, and to finish it all, you are the cause of global warming and you deny its very existance.

Its nice to know that there are so many perfect operators out there, very nice indeed:hmm:

So Up and Down, are you going to front up with an answer? or are you going to spout off once more about how poor anyone from MON operates?

This is down to picking Flysh#t out of pepper but some time ago MM said "turn left/right onto heading xxx" . The word to or onto will never be used for a heading change..."too" or should I say "two" much ambiguity!!!
Just wanted to show that MM is in fact not quite as super perfect as we /he thought.:ugh:

Flown it, you've blown it, this little gem is used on a regular basis by the MAN, and LGW director, and also by Essex radar...and YET again highlights the limitations of the system:=

Where did I mention I was super perfect?

P.S. top marks for picking up on it though, in all the personal insults flying about, I'd plumb forgotten I had put this little timebomb into text:D

Right that's it. I've tried and tried to stay out of this, I really have. I've been reading these posts like a rubber band being stretched and I knew somone would let go of one end eventually and then off I'd go.

Monarch Man, you are a plonker. Anyone who questions things like the use of "degrees" at the end of a heading instruction is showing arrogance beyond belief. Let say you have 40 years of flying experience. Do you really feel that the combined experience of many hundreds and thousands of aviators over the past 100 bloody years is nothing compared to you? Do you really feel that those who make decisions to change phrases used after considering all the facts and figures of the past are mere amateurs compared to your unrivalled professionalism? Even if only 1000 pilots had ever flown in UK airspace and have only had 10 years experience of doing so and they decided that something needs to be changed based on their statistics or testimony, that would still be 250 times more useful that all the experience you have had.

You complete ****. You are the perfect epitome of all that is wrong in this business. You obviously have gotten into this much deeper than you intended and are much too proud to admit you're pushing your luck. Just don't post here anymore and we'll all pretend it never happened.

You remind me of my grandfather who met his neighbour head-on early one morning on a back lane after going round a blind corner in the middle of the road. He blamed the neighbour because "In all the years I've spent driving that road, at the same time every morning, yer man was never there before."

What a complete eejit. Wait till MON management get a hold of this stuff!

Agree totally with above post...jesus man, how hard is it really to add L or R to an RT transmission?? As if the job of ATC isnt hard enough without having to put up with this c**p....:mad:

Well done Monarch Man...........

You seem to have upset quite a few on here on this thread
just recently.

Please keep bearring your arse for all to kick its good
entertainment.

MM

No problem:ok:
I've just ordered the rope, can you suggest a local tree I can use?
Just out of interest Paddy, how long has the word "degrees" been a requirement to be readback in UK airspace?
As for MON management, well as long as it is "zero cost" they won't be too worried:E

No harder than any other day I'd venture to say:8

All this frothing at mouth people, very very undignified, pathetic as well.

Considering all the moaning about how cr+p the industry is, having to work stupid duty hours, no time off, no days off etc, how come some of you seem to have unlimited time to sit behind a computer and have a virtual punch up with your work collegues??!!!

Just wondering!

Its called leave, and due to the crap weather today, what better way to discover the collective shoe size IQ of many on here by seeing how many bite?
I've yet to be disappointed, there seems to be one born every minute.

Hi Monarch Man,

the company you work for offers a fantastic range of flying, thus the experience gained is virtually second to none. This experience can obviously lead to some crews thinking that they know everything, which as we all know can be dangerous. Apparent to most on this thread is that you come across as slack, or a smart ass, or both.

I imagine you are still in the right hand seat, based elsewhere on the Monarch network, and doing the odd flight from Manchester. Knowing some of the guys in Manchester very well, i am pretty sure that they are on your case often for being slack, or a smart ass, or both !!.

I will now step aside...or should that be side step Left or Right for incoming.

Rgds.

Sums me up succinctly and accurately.

Sums up the flying aspects of my employer perfectly:)

Are you sure you don't know me?

I can't wait for further insults relating to my upbringing, and accusations of dubious sexual practises.

Monarch Man, now you have packed away your hook and line you must be a proud man as you venture home tonight. Us lesser mortals salute you, you are an inspiration to all.

Pls all step back and consider how this ridiculous debate looks to hundreds/thousands of wannabees (like myself)....it reads *exactly* like my 5yr old son having a fight with his mates about whose turn it is.

So easy to get sucked into a stupid slanging match, and written comments can be easily recursively mis-interpreted.

One thought for Monarch Man. There is no such thing as anonymity on the net, just varying degrees of effort & skill to discover who and where you are.

I would have expected to have seen a bit more moderation here by now.

Hi Monarch Man,

do i know you.

Let me see: 757 F/O based outwith Manchester who gets involved in CC recruitment, and who on occasions is slack along with being a smart ass......na don't know you. Any chance of some more clues though.

Rgds.

Khaosai now 320/321, used to be on the 330 as well:cool:never had anything to do with the CC. No one likes me at work either.

Any closer?