Hello "The Resistance".

Is the 270000 € after tax? Is your seniority approx. 15 yrs as Cpt.?

These details would help alot to varify our benchmark values from our Pilots Assoc. VC...

Thanks in advance

After years of abuse by COMAIR, at least the pilots are now growing some cajones. I hope their fellow regional brothers will follow their lead. One should be able to make a viable career in a regional airline without having to appologize for the paltry salary they make.

Abuses like pay-for-training and training bonds and disgraces upon the industry. An airline pilot that gets paid less than a tube train driver is a disgrace and insult, and cheapens the entire profession.

It's about time that the UK and EURO pilots grow some cajones. They need to get control of BALPA from the company kool-aid drinkers and take charge of their own fates. Why do you allow the company to squander money down ab initio training programs when there are more than enough good experienced pilots waiting in the wings for a right seat with BA? Why should a BA captain turn into a instructor pilot for a 200 hour F/O?? How can BA pilots allow outsourcing of THEIR jobs, and just sit back in obedient submission. What you'll find is that you'll save the once proud "World's Standard" airline, BA, from becoming just another victim of inept management and complacency. It's not my place to tell you guys that, but I am anyway. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to tell you you're being screwed. You ARE.

You guys have a lot of work to do. Get to it.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 27 March 2001).]

How can BA pilots allow outsourcing of THEIR jobs, and just sit back in obedient submission. What you'll find is that you'll save the once proud "World's Standard" airline, BA, from becoming just another victim of inept management and complacency. It's not my place to tell you guys that, but I am anyway. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to tell you you're being screwed. You ARE.

- Great posting!

Amazing how many people run off at the mouth without actually READING what is WRITTEN. For the benefit of those who have jumped to conclusions without engaging brains, let me just clarify for you:

I am in favour of:

- Union action (and strong action too) as a LAST RESORT when all negotiation has failed.

- A substantial general increase in pay and conditions for British pilots- they deserve it.

- British pilots being a little more insistent that their union works for their interests- BALPA do not seem particularly interested in improving our lot- Mr Darkes' very substantial renumeration should be linked to performance IMHO. I can't see how he justifies that sort of salary.

- An assertive recognition that pilots are not just aerial bus drivers, as the public are increasingly perceiving us to be. We deserve a LOT more than we get, when you take into account the nature of the job.

I am against:

- Union bully-boy tactics- a return to the Britain of the 50's.

- Any form of action against those whose conscience prevents them from joining a union (however short-sighted and self-serving that might be). I would however say that such people should be excluded from any union-negotiated improvements, if possible.

- A strong and effective union with hard-nosed and results-oriented officials. Our present union is a limp fish compared to those in most first-world countries.

Finally, I believe that most things can be achieved by skillful negotiation- in a sense, if a strike happens both sides have lost. If you want to see an example of how not to do things, check out the archives on the recent Ansett NZ dispute in New Zealand. A disaster for all concerned. Also, I stand by what I said about factors besides money- these things are important as well.

Disagree with me if you want, but disagree with what I have written, not what you THINK I have written!!

One thing that seems very clear from all the postings is that BA are seen to set the benchmark for pilot salaries within the UK and unfortunately this is causing concern for everyone as the 'benchmark' seems to be sliding. In order to regain ground a large rise appears to be necessary. One of the management tactics will undoubtedably be to use the press to undermine this rise and suggest that pilots are being greedy. I suggest a good tactic to counter this would be to suggest that a 5% rise or a 50% rise is not what pilots are after. The botton line is that the community is undervalued and therefore a large rise is necessary to achieve market rate. This would alleviate not only a problem of people saying that BA pilots have held the company to ransom for their own greed but also other groups of staff would perhaps then see that pilots have long been undervalued.

Absolutely right.

And furthermore, look at Lufthansa. It sems our Teutonic friends are once again showing us the way forward.

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SIZE MATTERS, (wallets and metal!)

Second Segment writes....

<<30% lads.....dream on. Is it really credible that BA, or for that matter any employer, to raise the salary of a single group by 30%. I can almost hear the ground engineers whinging from here!>>

Where ya been? United signed a deal last summer with those numbers and more of a raise!

YOU GET WHAT YOU BARGAIN FOR!!!!!

Capt737AA

Charly, sorry for the delay (flying ANOTHER crappy schedule....). The figure quoted was BEFORE tax. Year 8 Captain. Figures rise by about 1800 Euros per year. CX is the most miserable, demoralised airline in the industry (doubt this.....just have a read of the 'Fragrant Harbour' forum....). We are suffering from the most incompetent and venal management of the present age. I wouldn't wish them on my most ruthless competitor..... Good luck to all in your respective battles with management.

What about getting some professional advice and muscle from the USA. BALPA needs the US unions on its side who have the power and mega money to take BA on. We don't want to go out on strike but from past experience the company will offer little and expect more productivity with any new deal. If I am called out on strike it would be nice to know the company couldn't sack me or take my pension away without risking another strike. The US unions would also be able to fund our basic wages and not petty cash which is all BALPA can afford.

Dragon
Why on earth do you need the help of ALPA when all you have to do is ask your cabin staff how to deal with management!

Astrocyte - good comment!
Certainly BA cabin crew unions have done an excellent bloody job - (refer recent raises for CSD's - an dprotection of contractural T's and C's). There results make BALPA look like children.

Most ammusing, reading this thread. I'm sure that all you BA jocks hanker back to the old pre-privatisation days when the company existed for the benefit of its employees and stuff the passengers. You may recall that the airline then was losing stupendous amounts of money, but still lavished enormous annual payrises and perks on its own people. I recall that the airline actually ran up a debt of over a thousand million pounds! All written off in the end of course, all more tax payers money down the drain.

It's all about hard commercial reality now guys! Don't kill the old Golden Goose!

There's been much talk about the action (or lack thereof) of BALPA and the previous deal. I'm not a rep, but let's not forget that we have a new and far more determined BACC. They have been busy gathering data on all the airlines and, I'm assured, will be going for a decent rise. The previous, pathetic deal, signed up by the 'old' regime has been taken onboard by the 'newies', who know they will be lynched if they come back with anything like the reduction in pay we got as a result of the stupid Corporate Deal. We all need to make sure we give them our undivided support when it comes to the 'talks' later on in the year.

As for where the money will come from. Circa 200 paypoint 24s retiring this year, to be replaced by pathetically paid TEPs and CEPs. There's a bunch of dosh. What about all the management costs that will be retrieved (allegedly) thanks to the seamless (you've got to hate these management words) integration of CFE and the fact that they will come under BA management (yeah, right). We've already heard about all the computer dudes....oh, no I forgot, thye just wasted countless millions thanks to their marvellous system upgrade. You know, the one that went so smoothly that the whole of BA crashed. That's why we have to pay these experts so much, give them 1st class staff travel and then sub-contract all the important programming anyway. Roobarb hits the nail on the head with the Pravda brigade at Waterworld. I just wish Rod would wake up and get rid of anyone who does not DIRECTLY contribute to the profits.

As to the cabin crew, loaders etc.....I don't care. It might sound really P*&$ poor CRM etc, but I'm not in this game to campaign for their wages. If they can get a rise, good on them, if they can't then they're probably earning too much anyway (not the loaders), but certainly the coffee pourers for the job they do....much more than FOs etc.

I reckon we need to take a long and hard look at how the Colonials across the Pond do these things. We've been too nice for too long and just had the management take the p*&% at every step. We should have gone on strike last time and re-established our position in the big scheme of things. Conceated, maybe, but I'd like to see them run an airline without pilots.

My advice to our BALPA boys and girls. Get the deal sorted before going in. Put it on the table and present it as a fait accompli. There should be no negotiation. This is what the pilots want (having previously established EXACTLY what we do want beforehand) and unless we get it we go on strike. I will certainly be on the picket line, happy to remind our esteemed managers of the pay reduction we've suffered since first giving up money after the Gulf.

And for those who say BA pilots are a greedy, money grabbing bunch, just remember that (a) we are SIGNIFICANTLY underpaid compared to our coleagues in Lufthansa, Air France etc, ie comparable airlines and (b) snobbish though it may sound, the oft quoted saying: when BA sneezes the rest of the British airline industry catches a cold = we get paid more, you get paid more....and I hope you all do.

There, that's a bit of a spleen vent isn't it.

Bottom line....go for it BALPA, you've got Pontius at your side!!

Toodle pip,

Pontius

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You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!

Pontious,
Summed up beautifully. Well said.

Well said mate, right on the nail!!!!!

right on pontus!!!! exactly

Agree entirely...

BALPA mentioned they had received (quote) 'an unprecedented number of letters on this topic recently' and that they were looking at the options...or something like that.
I say, the more of us write in and show our total non-acceptance of their pathetic actions over this in years of late, the more chance we have of convincing them that, funny enough, we are serious about this issue.
As a BA boy my self (4 years-ish CEP) I am increasingly amazed by the figures some of my friends are making in other professions, and I ain't happy with it!
We should stand together and tell our beloved company to move with the times or face the consequences... Maybe we can learn a heck of a lot from our US colleagues and Lufty.
The point really is that we cannot accept any more deals that put us further behind... and we need a very large boost now to catch up with happenings elsewhere.
So, BA management... you are going to have some very major issues and problems on your plate soon. My advice is: don't underestimate us.

Fat Tony

Good on you Fat Tony.


Regards
Exeng

Pontius, I wish you and your colleagues well in what apparently lies ahead.

However, I can't let one of your comments pass unremarked: "My advice to our BALPA boys and girls. Get the deal sorted before going in. Put it on the table and present it as a fait accompli. There should be no negotiation. This is what the pilots want (having previously established EXACTLY what we do want beforehand) and unless we get it we go on strike."

The sense of deja vu that comes over me on reading those words is almost overwhelming. A quick history lesson from the colonies, if I may: twelve years ago, another pilot group with an equally compelling and valid set of grievances took industrial action for a 29.47% pay rise. (How much was it you fellows were asking for? - spooky!) The rhetoric from the ranks in the months leading up to the confrontation was probably even more outspoken than what I've seen here.

The union reps did exactly what you've quoted above - and to cut a very long story short, they and the almost two thousand pilots they represented were utterly defeated. What's interesting about the rout that ensued is how they were defeated. It was not by management per se, but by two factors, the second, (which I'll mention first), stemming directly from the first.

(2) some, (after nine long months, approx 23%), of the very people who had demanded action, folded when push came to shove. What's interesting about those 23% is that many of them were among the most outspoken in demanding industrial action in the months leading up to the confrontation. Which leads me to the first reason:

(1) pilots, mostly from the UK charter airlines, flocked half way around the world to quite gleefully undermine the industrial action being taken by pilots who they perceived had 'had it too good for too long'. (This is not my interpretation of their actions - this is paraphrasing what some of them said on television when they first arrived.)

I put it to you that the collective leopard doesn't change its spots. Whatever the real picture might be, you in BA are perceived by many of your countrymen who also fly commercially for 'lesser' airlines to have and it far too good for too long. Those same people will come out of the woodwork to take your jobs or undermine any action you take. I only have to look at the incredibly muddled thinking displayed in some of the earlier posts on this thread to see that you'll have your '23%' as well.

For those of you who think you're a member of the professional class and should be above that nasty, grubby working class agitation like picket lines and strike action, you're in for a very rude shock. And if it does reach the point where you all go out on strike, I'll be very interested to see how attitudes change towards those with "conscientious objections" to maintaining the position the majority voted for.

Pontius,
Sounds like you should be, a rep that is. I couldn't agree more - well said.

Wiley,
Thank you for your subtle reminder. However I do feel that a) BA are expecting a large claim - witness RE's recent comments. b) the present industrial/political climate in the UK is a little less confrontational than it would have been at the time of your dispute in Oz.