Another proof of point.

In today's aviation market, why can't BA make a profit???? What's going to happen when a real downturn in the economy happens??

Despite the drinking of vast quantities of company kool-aid by Euro pilots, pilot salaries do not make airlines unprofitable. Managerial buffoonery, incompetence, and/or corruption kills airlines.

dallas dude

For your information, I don't work for BA (thank God).

I'd rather have less money than your FTL's, or some other features of your packages. Money isn't the only goal of employment- being able to enjoy it in good health and wihout being exhausted all the time is also important. Only a fool believes that money is the only focus- a balanced package is far more important.

Second Segment - it is entirely up to the ground engineers to put in their own pay request. BA likes to have a nice and simple corporate wide pay deal. It is up to each group of employees to decide their true worth. Pay at BA has fallen so far behind that a massive pay rise is now needed to catch up. Strangely enough BA were able to find money to give the CSDs a 5.5% pay rise whilst the rest of the company got shafted.

Raw Data - what are you talking about? UAL pays its 747-400 Captains >$300,000 pa and F/Os >$150,000. With a 747-400 fleet about the same size of BAs, they have 1,800 pilots compared about 1,000 at BA. Why? Because they always fly with heavy crew.
Next time you're having a laugh at some Yank's R/T, remember that he is doing half the work for twice the money.

Raw Data,

You miss the point. Airline management isn't in this for your health or piece of mind. You are the only person that cares about you!

I just happen to think the US pilots learned this lesson a long time ago.

I don't want to get in to ANY Euro-bashing etc (I'm UK myself). Eventually Euro based crews will unite and realise they're being had (despite what the guvnor and his posts suggest).

Good luck getting what you can.

dd.

Hot Wings

What am I talking about? Not what you are talking about! You are talking money, I'm talking quality of life as well as money. I am not just thinking of 747 crews either, it may have escaped your attention but only a tiny minority of crews fly those types. The US commuter fleet is miles behind the UK in both pay and conditions (or don't they count, because they fly smaller machinery?) Just their FTL scheme alone is frightening.

dallas dude - I didn't miss the point at all. FTLs were negotiated (in a roundabout way), and there were tradeoffs. One was less money.

I'm all for unions, negotiation, and all that good stuff. I just don't happen to think the American Way is the best (or only) way. My original point was that I am against the bully-boy tactics as espoused by Up in Arms, who you may recall was talking about "social ostracisation (or worse) of non-members..." I wonder what s/he means by "or worse".

If that is the American approach to labour relations (and historically it has been), keep it on your side of the pond!

Raw Data - I'm glad that we don't work for the same company. You appear to be the sort of person who goes around saying that a 15 year old car and a bedsit in Hounslow is all you need to make you happy, not money, yet you would happily cross a picket-line and betray your colleagues for a fiver.

A united pilot force is the only way to get results. Unfortunately, some pilots need a bit of peer pressure placed on them.

If you have a look at the Comair threads you will see that commuter pilots in the US have had enough. To quote Capt. Duane Worth of ALPA regarding pay and conditions "we will not tolerate it any more".

Raw Data - you obviously favour a give and take/ partnership approach to employer/ employee relations. We have tried this at BA, using People in Business to discuss issues in a calm and constructive way. The result? Agreements made, then reneged upon by senior managers within the airline. This type of approach just does not work.

The worst flying jobs I have had, have been at companies with no union or a very weak union. And before you suggest, once again, that my only motivation is money, one of the companies paid a hell of alot more than I get paid now.

I'm with Dallas Dude on this one. BA's whole attitude reeks of busting the hated flightcrew down to the level of a piece rate worker. The clever attempt, (successful, I regret to say), at social engineering that is the Compass Centre (our crew report area) is testament enough to how BA really sees its pilots.

Indeed, there is a phrase for this manipulation of expectation:

"Flatter Structure".

The implication of that phrase is a narrow pyramid of high earners at around board level and just below, and the great majority of the workforce in a relatively low paid mass at the base. With our various B scales and acquisitions on wages like Cityfliers, we are well down the track of meeting BA's broad target for the reduction of flightcrew from professional status.

BA most certainly do not see pilots as professional people worthy of being treated as such, right up until an incident occurs, when suddenly the true professional nature of the job is acknowleged as all the responsibility is left firmly in the pilots lap. Each draft of our Flight Crew Orders heaps more and more liability overtly onto flightcrew.

I would accept that if a) we were to be treated as professional people within the company and granted even a vestige of respect and b) our salaries were roughly in line with our contemporaries in leading international airlines. Sadly neither occurs, nor does it look likely to.

Dallas Dude, want to tell us who you are with? I for one admire the practicality of the US airline pilot union movement. I think we have a huge amount to learn from you guys and yes, I think the uppermost level of our Union, BALPA, has its own political career in mind and not the aim of becoming a highly professional and respected negotiating machine in the way that ALPA has become.
Thanks for your input and please keep it coming. It's a tonic for long term BA inmates like me!

I think Raw Data's been drinking way too much company kool-aid.

I ask the question again. Why is BA doing so poorly in great economic times, if their pilot costs are not nearly those of US majors?

Answer: Because BA management is so poor. Lousy managers always try to blame everyone but themselves. Low crew costs have little to do with the success of an airline.

Wise up and smell the coffee, guys. You're being shafted by both management and your union. Why in the heck do you allow outsourcing of your jobs, like with Atlas? Why do you allow an airline who is supposidly the "standard" of the world to pay you second rate wages? Why do you put up with a union leadership who can't get results? It will NEVER get any better until your contract forces management to be efficient. And you will never get a better contract until you get some leadership in the union that cares about ALL the membership.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 26 March 2001).]

Raw Data,

For your information UPS Pilots got a 30% raise on their last goin 98. You do seem to have a complacent and defeatist attitude, Why not expect United wages, with your FTL's? Pilot salaries do earn alot of press, but have a small impact on the bottom line. BA will cry poverty, yet will host lavish dinners, executive retreats, questionable campaigns (how much did that world tails cost?) then will whine they can't afford to pay their pilots world class wages. No offence but I was amazed at your payscales, I always assumed you and Lufthansa were paid extremely well, yet some F/o's earn as much as your Captains at my airline..Stand up for the profession and stand united. Good luck!

RoC -Spot On. BA will compail, and produce figures showing how they can'y afford to give us ANYTHING. I think the only way to reduce the excesses of Waterside is for the pilots to increase their portion of the costs, thereby forcing certain managers to scale back theirs. I'm fed up of tightening my belt and then seeing other departments on "jollys", management Xmas parties held in Stately homes, and crazy fancy dress promotions costing millions. I'm sorry, but I've had enough. So I gather have a large proportion of the pilots 'cos they've voted with their feet and moved off-shore, thereby awarding themselves a 20-25% pay-rise already. I think stormy waters lie ahead in the next year!!

High sallaries for cockpit-staff are seldomly stopping an airline to have a high profit. Good examples are the Americans and Cathay Pacific (C.P. "A": with 25 years as Cpt: more than 400000 € !!!!).

Germanys VC is now in for a 30 % pay rise at Lufthansa..
We are fighting, and are ready for any consequences, we had enough!

So if BALPA is starting a campaign, then please support, it helps all of europe!!

Greetings and good luck from Germany!

Charly

[This message has been edited by Charly (edited 26 March 2001).]

As a BRAL pilot apparently being absorbed into the BA empire, I can see all sides here.
We are generally very pleased to be owned by BA with a certain amount of schadenfreude over what changes will occur in our largely reasonably happy airline. We are looking forward to getting at least a few paltry benefits from our subsumation into the Empire, mainly security I suppose.
However, it is easy to see that ourselves, Brymon and City Flyer are primarily being absorbed, not because of our profitability or the pulchritude of our cabin crew. It is a method of attempting to lower the BA pay scales over time, by creating an effective 'B' scale.
I only hope that BALPA are aware of this, and have a plan. If BA mainline continue to be shafted, then every single UK Airline will suffer - even the likes of our contented pal Raw Data. BA salaries, like it or not, are a benchmark.
Hence, any movement by BALPA to put the lot of us on the bottom of the BA seniority list should be viewed as part of the big picture, not in terms of short term disadvantage.
I firmly believe that our American friends are 100% right. We don't need flying pickets, but we do need to take a reality check, and stop believing the garbage about what is an affordable pilots salary. Think about Cathay. They are told the Company is in dire straits, losing money, overpaid pilots etc etc etc The pilots unwillingly go along with a reduction in benefits, albeit only slight. Suddenly, Cathay have a record year, record profits. No-one would seriously believe the small benefit reduction made such a difference, it is management posturing. We prove ourselves with a well operated sector, a smooth landing, an abnormal situation handled by the book. Most Management proves itself by macho posturing and reducing costs, to prove who is boss.
Phew, sorry to go on, but we really do need to get our act together .

Why isn’t BA profitable? Because under Ayling the airline went from 44000 to 66000 employees whilst ridding itself of highly experienced front line staff. Mission critical functions were contracting to cheap third-rate companies who don’t give a toss about BA’s customers or product. Meanwhile the massed ranks of suits established the opulent corporate palace at Waterworld and conspired to destroy the very fabric of the airline, selling off anything that wasn’t screwed down and screwing the staff in the process.

Staff costs in the period rose to £3bn, which effectively stifled the profitability of the company without any net contribution to the bottom line. About the only high spot was the years freeze on the activity of the IT Empire which gave us 12 months of trouble free operation. You can see for yourself what happens when they’re allowed back to work.

So sack 22000 suits and save one third of the staff costs which by my maths translates into £1bn profit. Frankly I’m sick of working my butt off (most pilots reckon on having provided a 30% increase in credited hours over the last four years with a sub-zero reward) for no recognition. I don’t want profit related pay whilst these management morons destroy any hope we have of making any.

Give me a fixed percentage of the company’s turnover. £9bn in the last two financial years shows clearly that there'’ nothing intrinsically wrong with the operation or the dedication and productivity of the uniform personnel. They always suck teeth and bleat about the size of any payclaim so I really don’t give a stuff what they think. If they can’t afford it they’ll have to make economies elsewhere. If they don’t know where the axe has to fall they can give me a call. :mad:

http://www.sausages.demon.co.uk/ian/...bs/roobarb.gif

Just while the subject of IT is mentioned, someone said on another thread that BA IT staff have their date of birth as their date of joining, so they can be dirty cheaters on staff travel and push in ahead of real workers. Can anyone shed any light on this, and is anyone able to justify it?

Even though the CEP's are going nowhere for five years without bankrupting themselves, they still wait 6 months for concessions, i.e. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!

Yeah well, why don't all of you think of the Air Traffic Controllers and what they got as their pay rise?? 3%!!!! Marvellous!! *said in a deeply sarcastic tone*. Please remember that when you are moaning to us about slots/can't get requested level/direct routings/bits on fire/late off the gate/etc, that we are sat on the ground having our brains pounded into porridge day in day out by your collegues whilst simultaneously trying to do the best for one and all, and all for a 3% pay rise!!! If we were getting the money that the BA guys were getting then we'd be very happy indeed!!
Maybe you are not the only ones with problems out there!!!

Charly, sorry to have to correct you. As a fairly senior A-scale Captain at CX, my earnings last year were approx 270000 Euros. Not chicken feed...but quite poor when you consider the following: 1) no pension 2) no bidding - my schedule for the month is random, and usually fraught with inefficiencies 3) working under continual threat of dismissal - only 3 month notice WITHOUT cause needed! 4) poor medical benefits 5) no retirement medical benefits 6) hiring of pilots out of seniority (direct entry captain on the Freighters, on only half the regular pay) 7) continual stress of dealing with an immoral and venal management (oops, sorry, I realise we ALL are dealing with that...!). Needless to say, please don't buy into the CX management propaganda and myth. The 'old' CX is long gone, replaced by one of the most miserable and unhappy airlines in the industry. There is more to this profession than salary.....and many managements are looking at what CX's management has done to us.....so beware! ps, I wouldn't plan to travel on CX over the coming weeks if I were you...... :)

Sounds to me like BA is playing you guys for SUCKERS. When are you going to sack the idiots that lead your union and get some REAL leadership in there? You guys need to go over to Waterworld, dress up like indians, and toss some tea overboard!! It worked for us a few years ago.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 27 March 2001).]

>>Charly, sorry to have to correct you. As a fairly senior A-scale Captain at CX, my earnings last year were approx 270000 Euros. Not chicken feed...but quite poor when you consider the following: <<

270 kiloeuros is awesome by British or Canadian standards, however, you're right, considering lack of other benefits, high cost of living and poor work rules, it pales in comparison to what senior U.S. widebody captains get these days.

Cathay was once a crown jewel of the expat world. Now, sadly, it's becoming just another flying job.

Love it, love it, love it!!

Finally we're gettting some balls!!

I love the % of turnover idea! As a measure of productivity I'll take that!

No pilots, no airline, no turnover, no profits. Who you gonna call Guv??

loaded 1,

I'm lucky enough to be with one of the top three US airlines although at one point I was gung-ho for BA (funny how things turn out).

I was thinking....you know EVERY Commercial pilot has a license from their government, issued after exhaustive and continual testing, that essentially PROVES they're an expert at what they do.

Airline management simply get to show up after some business school "training" and try their hand at managing airline resources.

"Go on, give it a go. You'll never know how bad you are until you give it a try!". I mean, it's not like they're going to injure someone. They'll just hurt the balance sheet. And so they do, and the employees get to pay for it!

And the BALPA club lets them get away with it.

As the great Ron Bain used to say ..."it was ever thus".

Seems to me if we pilots made as many stupid decisions, passengers would end up driving everywhere!

dd