Why are you trying to compare the 072 with a crash about which we know almost nothing? The investigation team can go home now that you have done their job for them!!!! When the findings are published then its time to compare and draw conclusions. Show respect for gods sake and stop this stupid schoolboy behaviour. You sound like you are sitting there with the FCOM's open just waiting to showoff. Once again WAIT till the FACTS are known and stop feeding the rumour mill. People died here and you are using it to pump up your ego! Shameful.

Here are the graphics to which I refered to earlier...

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/g...x?ItemID=12750

And here is the link to the story:
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...Black+Sea.html

Do the a320 have any obvious weaknesses that makes it vulnerable in these kinds of situations?

/Tim

No it doesn't ............................

I assume you are Gulf Air and I can understand your professional silence. You would be well practiced! Perhaps your courteous silence has cost lives previously?

Nobody should discuss the accident until the report is out eh Jack? Then take it on face value with no questions asked? Just like GF 72 ? Now there is aviation safety progress. :mad:

I have said enough on this topic and you have already said too much! Any further comment from me is to draw me down to your level and I refuse to do that, too much respect for myself and those involved in this tragic accident.

Gnadenburg, give it a break, you are tripping over yourself with a load of tech hogwash. Let the investigation decide what happened and as JB suggested put you FCOM and your ego away somewhere safe eh!

There would be credence in that if you weren't Gulf Air too.

If this accident was spatial disorientation on G/A, I'm sorry to upset your 'comfortable silence', but GF 72 will be talked about again.

OK. I will zip up til the prelim' report.

Gnadenburg

Please continue to put forth scenarios (plural) that could be involved in this accident as well as any other similar situation facing pilots.

Some of us have come here to understand the challenges to be faced in an investigation. Only in that way may we be thorough in our examinations and considerations and better reflect needed changes , in equipment, procedures or training.

Apparently one of the flight data recorders has been recovered from the sea this evening.
TP

The data (whether CVR or FDR) should be very enlightening.

They have recovered CVR and they are pretty much sure the FDR is nearby and would be recovered soon. From Russian media the guys have formed a 3 shifts (each represented with someone from Airbus team) working all toghter 24 hours with unmanned sub-vehicle in order to find and lift recorders. The CVR recover is a good sign so I hope they will get FDR out very soon.

IMHO, a few questions in mind came up after reading this thread:

1. Were there any other aircraft that landed in that time period, what was their report, if any?
2. My idea of circling approaches is , its usually done in "special VFR" conditions, and wouldn't it be prudent to circle to land from another direction, instead of repositioning into the **** you just came out of a few seconds ago?
3. Is it wise to seek landing conditions reports from the Ground controller? Or was it the ground Company ops controller?
4. Seems like a shortage of fuel situation leading to "Press Syndrome"
5. To me, this would be a good situation to use auto-pilot , instead of hand flying it, I think the work-load in poor conditions and turbulence seems "hairy"
5. I think its not caused by any isolated reason, all that has contributed points are valid,and more so when consolidated together, plus fatigue, plus personal issues etc...

...oh, the questions will go on and on, I'll stop here for now, thanks for this thread, I've learnt much.

Armenian A320 CVR tape
 

Latest news release on CVR recovery:

I was under the impression that the Airbus had digital CVRs as normal equipment on their aircraft.

Cockpit Voice RecorderTime recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels - 4
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms Fire resistance1100 deg C / 30 min Water pressure resistancesubmerged 20,000 ft Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation.

The US required that aircraft manufactured after October 11, 1991 be equipped with DCVRs. I would imagine that Airbus would have followed this requirement for all aircraft manufactured after this date. Does anyone know the manufacture date of this particular aircraft?

Yesterday they have also recovered FDR which is in good condition (as per media reports).

Armenian Authorities Will Keep Secret A-320 Crash Causes Until Official Decision
 

15.06.2006 13:15 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Armenian authorities have been advised of the causes of the crash of the Armenian plane but they are not empowered to make the information public yet, RA Prime Minister Andranik Margaryan told reporters yesterday. In his words, the authorities will keep the information secret until the official decision of experts in announced.
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To remind, On May 3 night Airbus-320 owned by Armavia national carrier crashed in the Black Sea 6 km away from Adler airport killing all 113 people aboard, including 6 children and 8 crewmembers. Among them were 26 Russian citizens, one Ukrainian and one Georgian citizen, while the rest were Armenian citizens.
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Meanwhile, an anonymous source in the investigating committee said that errors by the crew have become obvious as the reason for the A-320 jet crash in the Black Sea. The decoding of the flight recorders showed that the pilots “had lost spatial orientation” in bad weather conditions. It was also ascertained that the pilots had overbanked when making the second turn by order of the flying control officer. These factors, specialists say, led to the catastrophe.

overbanked A320?

I recall from an Airbus Jet Upset Recovery course, just how effective roll is in 'slicing the nose' through the vertical in a nose high recovery. The bank angle used was 60 degrees and within Flight Envelope Protections.

Conversely, any nose low, high bank scenario I vaguely recall, required unloading prior to recovery, with rapid speed onset and altitude loss- no time close to the ground in TOGA thrust.

The point I'm trying to make, if bank was involved even if within the envelope, it would certainly have rapidly complicated disorentation in a Go Around.

In Jet Upset Recovery, Airbus never saw the need for training in recovery from a messed up GA. It never thought it possible. If this was spatial disorientation, the solution will be simple, mandatory CPIP upgrade of all Airbus aircraft to include the reinstatement of Flight Diretors on go around.

...instead of asking more and more automatic fool proof protection (well, that's what it's for - for fools) it might be necessary to work on basic flying skills and proper pilot selection.

If you look at the current discussion in the Middle East forum ("should it be allowed to hand fly an aircraft?") it's clear were the present development goes. And that's why these Airbusses are so pretty liked in the less developped countries - you can put any pilot in it.

So far, every Airbus crash had been "impossible". But still some "spatial disoriented" pilots were able to drive it into the ground...

when will they ever learn... :rolleyes:
Dani

Hey Gnadenburg, whatever happened to Couldn't resist the chance to pass judgement again.