I like the idea although I myself would not be allowed to enter the discussions as I'm no longer in the airline business having "moved out" after redundancy changed my career direction.

I would therefore also support inclusion of other related job holders. In my 8 years in airline operations I learnt a lot, so people with longer time lines could, no doubt, make some very useful inputs.

Trouble is how do you keep out the Jouno's and their leeches?

IRT Age
 

les vieux ont au moins cet avantage qu'ils sont certains d'avoir été jeunes, par contre aucun jeune ne peut être absolument certain de devenir un jour vieux.

Monsieur de La Palisse dixit N380UA LOL :E

Let's get this money-spinner underway.

When's the Pprune IPO?

here's another suggestion: create a new open forum with a strict posting policy, premoderation and with consequently and permanently banning people who have nothing useful to contribute. That way, everyone is invited to quietly listen and learn from the professionals and those who are a pain in the neck, are going to be excluded. And with respect to journos and the media, nothing going to stop them quoting posts out of context to produce a good story, whether or not there is a new private forum.

i would certainly disappointed if i, as a wannabe, have to wait for my first employment to be able to follow the worthwhile debates on incidents/accidents.

if you must

i appreciate that threads can get out of control, emotive and off topic, but to be honest even if you had a restricted forum, i would suspect that you would still find there would be emotive, off topic , out of control threads. But instead of folk getting all irritated with the posters who add to a thread from a position of no knowledge, you'll prob'ly have folk getting irritated with low experience "current airline pilots" and then have to create a forum especially for "current airline pilots" who have xxx hours , then captains only, - then maybe captains who have xxx hours on xx amount of types.
anyhoo.......:p

louby

Another solution to the problem...Perhaps!
 

I started to post numerous times on this thread and ended up being unable to put into words what I was thinking. I suppose it all comes down to how one feels about arbitrary exlusionary policy. And that admittedly depends greatly upon which side of the exclusionary fence one finds oneself! Recognizing that this is the case left me at odds with my own ethos and I could not find a way to rationalize my feelings on this matter, Still can't.

However, I know of one solution that may fill the bill. Simply form a list of individuals whom you would like to invite to participate in this new "pros only" forum and who will agree to an identity verification procedure to join. Send them PMs and make no public announcement. Run the forum so it is invisible to the common rabble (of which group I may well be a member!) and there will be no further need for the elite to be bothered by the nonsensical ramblings of mere mortals and online posers!

I did not think of this on my own. It has allready been done elsewhere. I just happen to be one of the chosen in that case, so it's OK! If you think you have a problem on this board, you should see some of what else is out there. Actually, it is my hope that some solution other than segregation can found to rectify this problem of impertinent and sophomoric behaviour. (spelled your way!) The mods really do a very respectable job of keeping things under some semblance of control on this board without being overbearing. It's tough when immature participants feel they must resort to nationalism and name calling rather than discuss aviation matters in an adult manner. This is the only site I've seen so far which has a truly international composition. Please be careful not to diminish the importance of this site by segregating it's finest contributors from the general membership. Who is to set the example for others to follow?

If you really must form a separate forum, consider doing it as I have suggested since I feel this will do the least amount of damage to the present forums. Either that, or consider attacking the problem from the bottom by getting rid of the problem children. I know, that's a whole different can of worms!

Best of success in whatever you decide.

Westhawk

While I'm not an airline jock I would hate to be excluded as there are aspects which cover ALL aviation. Nor would I like to see excluded others who are not in the profession but have valuable imputs and insights to make. I recollect a poster on the subject of the application of computers in designs such as the Airbus giving an educational insight into computers and their workings though he had nothing to do with aviation personally. A great contribution to the discussion. Like westhawk have pondered the question at length and my humble offering is,
1. Charge a fee
2. Attached to the credit card details attach a scanned copy of licence, professional qualifaction etc to establish you are what you say you are
3. Fill out profile to reflect the facts rather than as a canvas to exercise creative abilities
4. On completion of above and Danny/Mods are satisfied as to the bona fides some obvious sign be given that the poster has "passed the test". What that may be only Danny/Webmaster would be able to decide what is feasable. I thought perhaps your posting "handle" could be put up in a different colour than the regular Royal Blue - change to red for example.

Of course it all takes administrative effort. It might then be possible to ascertain what credence to give to posts made. On the other hand if the airline boys are dead set on wanting their own sand pit where all are excluded go for it. Perhaps you need to hold a referendum Danny.

Mrs Daysleeper subscribes to a parenting website, recently they have had a problem with "fake" parents , strange I know. The solution was to get parents to send in a picture of their babys holding a bit of paper with the username on it. Anyone can still post but only those who have carried out this "verification" will have a kind of signature thingy.

So how bout a photo of your aeroplane with your username written in the dirt on the gear doors or something...

My company keeps our a/c always nice and clean, does that mean i can't join ? :uhoh:

The best idea yet! In fact, for all we know, there may be such a thing, here as we type! :cool:

Jumping on board after a long silence, reading rapidly through the posts, so apologies for duplication if any.
Being almost 10 years on Pprune, I always liked to read the other views, to fill the gaps of my own knowledge.
I know quite a lot of my small piece of puzzle, but to get the big picture, I like to hear about knowledgeable people about their own puzzle piece.
So basically, making a new safety orientated forum with only " active ATPLs over 20 Tons" debating makes little sense to me.

One of the first very good thread here was the Silk air 737 one, and I remember that a familly member of the F/O ( Crokett if my memory serves me well ) contributed and had access to some info as next of kin we did not. His contributions to the thread were very valuable, and he was an outside aviation person ( not anymore I guess ).

On the general idea of Danny to select persons to run a parallell forum dedicated to safety , I like the idea, but only if the results are seen by everyone in the end. otherwise it does not make sense to me either.

As to confidentiality, for safety issues, in this new forum ,one could use his real name and position, I see no problems in that. Anyway I think by now, many here know by now who I am, what I do and who I work for, and I do not mind anymore.
As to the finances, a symbolic figure would be in order ( e.g :1 EUR or GNP month) if you ask more there would be no-one from Holland (and Scottland) I guess. :)

I am fed up with the off-topic posts, the (NOT!!!) funny posts and posts from miss informed people (both professionals and enthousiasts).

I find it scary/worrying that many of these posts appear to be posted by colleagues :eek:

I would welcome a specialist pilot forum, but I am not sure it would solve the nuissance postings, unless we would restrict posting rights of 90% of the people. But how about a style like http://slashdot.org where points and catagories are given to posts? It would be great that I as a reader can select the minimum scores per category to filter out the garbage.

Not sure that I would put a weight limit on it. Watching someone bring in a DC-3 a few weeks ago to a wet and windy runway in Africa, I bet that that pilot could teach us all a few tricks. I flew a diesel-3 for a while and know the handful he was working with.

I learned more from an old BOAC Captain when I was a pup than a lot of other pilots I ever flew with. We flew a Visount 700/800 series with him for years and for me it was "shut up and watch," in other words the old school of command and CRM. Now that I am "that old fart" in the left seat I do not command the way he did but sure try to teach (and learn as well) as best possible while flying. Now that I teach EFIS/FMS its interesting to remember back but many of the old lessons are still very valid.

Sending a copy of a ATP or CPL should be enough IMHO. Scan and email the thing to the MOD. I am the moderator of a internet aviation forum and we do not require proof of license but the new members have to prove that they are aviation related to keep the spammers off. So far its worked and no hassles.

CD

PS there are still ways to show the kids and newcomers about flying. I take them out in my WW2 era fabric taildragger as often as possible. Was at a large fly-in in June and a friend of mine flew for five hours straight, giving kids and parents alike rides in an old taildragger (am on the board of directors there so could not fly myself) so there are ways to get them up and in the air at times.

I think this is an excellent idea!

I understand that you need to draw the line somewhere, but I also agree that there are more than just pilots in the aviation industry, as you recognise in your posts danny.

As an aerospace engineering graduate and trainee wannabe pilot type, I would be more than interested to learn from the discussion of people who are "in the loop" so to speak. I also think that on some areas it might be extremely useful to have the input of those outside the loop, as they may be able to provide useful insights into some matters, for example the computing example quoted earlier, and also might be able to provide a different point of view.

Unfortunately to allow this the only possible solution would be pre-moderation of all post, which I readily accept would be far too time consuming!

One possible solution would be to have two levels of access. One for people who are directly related to the day to day workings, for example pilots, instructors, ATCO's, possibly engineering. These people could be verified as has been discussed earlier and have posting rights. A second group could consist of people such as myself, in training or in other sectors that might find the information useful but may well not have a great deal to contribute. This again could be verified by checking of licences, or a letter from a recognised training organisation etc. This group would have access only to read the posts, or possibly to make posts but in a pre-moderated manner rather than freely like group A.

The third thing I think would be useful would be to have a thread within the "public" part of the site where any important conclusions etc. could be posted to allow people who might find them useful to see them. I'm sure there are many pro's on here who wouldn't necessarily be interested in taking part in the discussions but would be very interested in the outcome.

Just my 2p worth!

My 2 cents

Completely CLOSED forum, (not readable by the rest of the masses) and real names, not handles....


Cheers
Wino

You're welcome to start your own, Wino. Have fun!

To others who have just discovered this thread, read through it completely before commenting. Check the date of the thread. Realise that the points made have been read by Pprune Admin, given the appropriate weight for their value, and inwardly digested. Appropriate action has been taken.

Scroggs

"Appropriate action has been taken."
That's great -I think? Looking forward for any announcement resulting from these actions.
Ciao,

What announcement?

Scroggs

My only comment is that I'm sure the new forum would be great, but equally pprune would slide down hill rapidly as all the professional content disappeared.

"Realise that the points made have been read by Pprune Admin, given the appropriate weight for their value, and inwardly digested. Appropriate action has been taken."

I personally hope for any action that will improve the quality of posts on this board. From the fora I read, only Tech Log is O.K. (imho) on the others only some threads appear to be (tightly) moderated.

Regarding the appropriate action, I assumed it will result into something noticable that will be introduced with an announcement. (e.g. the introduction of this specialist forum)

I'm not qualified to comment about the necessity of a specialist pilot forum, but I am qualified to comment on a moderation style like the one used by Slashdot. Yes, it works, and I also browse Slashdot with a high enough minimum score to filter out the most obvious garbage. But you get what you're asking for, and with a moderation style like Slashdot what you get is not necessarily a measure of quality but a measure of popularity instead - thus be careful what you're asking for.
Overall I believe there's only one thing that can guarantee a high quality message board - and that is high quality moderation.
1) If you guys want a specialist forum - go ahead, let everybody post and read the forum but announce from the get-go that this will be a sharply moderated forum and that every post that is removed from that forum will get the poster an immediate 6 month ban on his IP number for the whole of PPRuNe. :8 That will make many people think twice about posting in that forum I hope.
2) And if you guys want a forum that's closed to the rest of the world (for posting and reading) then there's no better way than an invite-only forum.
Sadly both of these methods increase the workload of our dear hosts and moderators ... perhaps time to announce a few more moderators out of the pool of high quality posters here on this board?

Scroggs,

I read the whole thread, and was well aware of the date on them. If you (as moderator) feel that the thread had no more worth and that the whole topic was dead, you should have closed the thread, rather than take a shot at me...

If the debate is over (as you imply) then you failed in your moderating duties by leaving the thread open.

What Danny seams to have been suggesting with the specialists thread was a little outside of the scope of pprune as it is right now, which is fine. It would make a nice addon, but the nature of what he is asking would be at cross purposes with the anonomous aspect off the greater pprune area.

Cheers
Wino

I'm inclined to wonder myself. Particularily in view of cryptic nature the following quotes! :)
So I suppose those outside the loop are left to speculate as to what "appropriate actions" may have been taken! That's fine with me since the owners of this board are free to act as they see fit. However I'm still somewhat curious as to the nature of the "appropriate actions" taken anyway. Anyone in the know willing to share perhaps?


Best regards,

Westhawk

Hey Danny,
When you make it exclusive for those holding a current license or in current employment it sounds as if you might also exclude the retired members of the fraternity who have a lot of experience to offer, and who were active when they first joined PPRUNE but have recently retired. I hope this is not your intention.
However, PPrune is a *professional* pilots' forum and I do think we should only have professionals contribute and yes there has been more than enough 'uninformed opinions' from wannabes and passengers which should be excluded or confined to a sub-forum. Besides, there are countless Private Pilot Forums on the Web anyway.
You may have to do something similar to what the airline forums do on this site and have a staff verification, but whatever system you decide on it is going to involve a lot of work screening, even if people send a JPG of their License for you to check you may have to recruit helpers.
I think the easiest way to do it is on a TRUST BASIS. Until current members attach a small sized JPG of their license page they are considered UNVERIFIED PROFESSIONAL. If on eventual inspection (at your own pace) it is found that they have uploaded a jpg of a library ticket or Mickey Mouse then they can be publically shamed and deleted.
All new applicants however need to upload a jpg of their licence immediately to gain entry. I am not sure what bandwidth load this may place on your server but I think it may work out fine. Once you have verified them you can delete the JPG.
But please do not exclude the retired fraternity and please allow old licences to be accepted.

Privateer : didn't know the large-eared one had an ATPL ;) ;)

With regard to moderation, it is mostly good here on PPRuNe, but occasionally appallingly bad.

I found myself banned recently, apparently for the appalling sin of arguing a point. Whoever did it didn't give me a reasonable explanation, and didn't have the courtesy to identify themselves. There was no warning given, and no attempt to edit the offending (??) posts. The other party to the argument, who had been quite insulting, was left alone as far as I can tell.

Now I don't really care much about the ban - gave me a chance to do some work on the house instead of PPRuNing - however, the manner in which it was done was quite appalling, so much so that I suspect it was personal.

My only plea, therefore, is that if this new forum was to go ahead (and it is a very good idea), that the moderation would meet the same standards of professionalism that we exercise in our duties as pilots, ATCOs or engineers.

Seems to me like posts are removed for 'other' more political reasons quite often.
As to another 'elitist club', isn't the fact the world is at war with itself due to one group of people believing their views, beliefs, religions, society etc are better or more valid than anothers.
Everybodys view or opinion is valid providing it is not insulting or condecendingly put across. Trouble is there are a few without the vocabulary to avoid this.:ok:

Until you pay the moderators, you will have to continue to rely on the band of unpaid willing volunteers who give up their spare time to keep this place running. Each of those volunteers is an individual, with their own style, preferences and betes-noirs. Inevitably, there will be differences in how each one interacts with members and the material they post. Some prefer to moderate in the background of the forum(s) they are responsible for, others are more visible. The fact that this site not only continues to exist, but is continually expanding, is testament that the overall style and tenor of moderation here is about right. Naturally, individual instances may provoke controversy and disagreement but that goes with the territory. At the end of the day, the ref is always right!

As for the proposal for a separate, pilots-only forum, I would have thought that it would be obvious, given the time elapsed since this thread was started, that the idea has been considered in depth and rejected as not currently a practicable proposition. The more obeservant amongst you will have seen several changes to Pprune in the last couple of months, some in response to suggestions that have been put forward here and elsewhere. However, the overwhelming feeling is don't fix what ain't broken*.

Scroggs

* Naturally, anything I say may be denied, opposed or just plain ignored by Danny and Rob and so this post may be completely wrong! ;)

Only when the ref is properly trained and appropriately certified!

Seriously though... I never got banned, but I have seen a few interventions by moderators that range from just bad-mannered to appallingly one-eyed. Yes, you may be volunteers, but if you accept the responsibility, then you should also be prepared to be completely fair and impartial at all times. Just because you (very willingly) give up your time to moderate, doesn't give any moderator the right to engage in personal vendettas, or embark on their own particular agendas. This has certainly happened in the past (although it is rare).

Overall the standard is high, but I did follow the thread that I presume MOR is on about, and I can't for the life of me understand why a ban was called for...

I still like my http://slashdot.org example with categories and points. I understand that the moderators are busy, but wouldn't it then be time to call for more? I appreciate the open nature of this board, but now sometimes posts get deleted with for me no obvious reason -moderators nerve touched?- while other equally bad postings remain. How about opening a new forum called trashcan, where people can not post, only read and where all OT/funny single line posts, offensive posts or other below standard posts disappear to? This could be programmed as a single button action for the Mr and Mrs moderators, with a small group of senior moderators to take more important political/policy decisions? Not close to http://slashdot.org but (imho) better than it is now.

Actually, the 'trashcan' principle is used here, but only moderators can see posts in there. I can't comment on the 'slashdot' system; I haven't used it and it's not up to me anyway.

Whatever rules and guidelines exist for moderators (and they do exist), the interpretation will be down to the individual mod on the day. If he or she is feeling a bit less tolerant than usual, or there's been a run of PITA threads, patience may get thin and the moderation may be harsher than you might like. However, if you want absolute consistency then hire robots. People aren't like that - witness the controversies that very highly-paid international football referees get into over decisions that players and fans don't like. Why do you think we are likely to be any different?

Scroggs

So extrapolating that logic a bit, it is OK if I just fly the approach a dot low if I've had a crappy day? Or four whites if I'm feeling particularly happy? Maybe I should just make up my own minima if the F/O is giving me grief...

I don't think it's asking too much for moderators to be fair and consistent. Nobody is twisting your arm, you clearly want to do it, so why not do it well? Why apply a lesser standard than you would in your job? This is now a large, international forum, and it deserves the best moderation possible. If moderators feel that they can't act in that capacity, then with the greatest of respect, they should move aside.

Really? Who's going to die if I make a moderation decision that upsets you? Get real.

The moderation here is done very well. Believe me. Of course, you have the option of going elsewhere if you don't like it here. You have no contract with Pprune and we, in turn, have none with you.

Scroggs

I've had a long association with PPRuNe and gladly paid for my blurb thingy opposite. But I'm about to 'retire' from the forums for a second time due to the excessive 'noise'. It's like trying to have a chat with fellow pilots in the crewroom except that at the far end there is a door open and the public is filing past (like at an airshow) calling out and making ill-informed comments.

See you all in a few months, maybe. :{ :{ :{

No one would die, but attitudes like that will get you everywhere! And this is coming from someone who is a list owner, admin or moderator on several other internet forums. BTW, I get paid as much as you do for all the work, zip, zero, nada, nothing.

If I took that attitude with the forums I work with the people that I help would slap my wee wee, and I would probably deserve it.

Its not my place to start patting myself on the back. When the members say the moderators are doing a good job then they/we deserve it, otherwise I usually shut up about how I am doing my job, but then thats just me.

Ah, yes. The standard (amongst some mods) "if you don't like it, p*ss off". How very erudite. How very adult.

Who is going to die? Well, if you must insist on being such a drama queen, nobody. A true professional doesn't lower his standards just because lives aren't at risk.

Most of us come here in spite of attitudes such as yours - you certainly don't enhance the experience. I'm with RD on this one.

I'm not patting myself on the back, CD. If someone wishes to take issue with my particular style, that's fine; I can cope! But I watch the efforts of the 60-odd moderators here and marvel at the way they hold this place together, despite occasional (and quite vitriolic) abuse from some of our less, ahem, sanguine members... They're not after gushing praise, but the occasional thanks does make the day a whole lot brighter - and it does come, sometimes from the most unexpected direction!

All I'm trying to point out is that the mods are people, and like people in any role, they sometimes make mistakes. There is also no requirement for them to agree with those that post in these forums, simply that they enable the discussion and referee the manner in which it is held. In many forums here, the discussion style can be quite combative, and so the moderation sometimes has to be a bit rough and ready. Even with the numbers of moderators that we have, it's not possible to constantly monitor each and every thread - that's why we have the 'report post' facility so that you guys can warn us when things may be taking a wrong turn.

Ultimately, this is just a talking shop. Sometimes the conversations are serious and useful, other times they're humorous and trivial. Sometimes they're complete tripe! But it's not life and death, and if people start to take it that seriously, maybe it's time to step back for a while.

Scroggs

Scroggs,

As a fellow Mod, I know exactly what you are saying and I feel the same way most of the time.

Taking an additude (and it appears that you did have one in #194) is helping no one and making most people feel like MOR's comment.

The "If you do not like it, then leave" attitude is helping no one. Lets work together and make it work better. If someone has a complaint then it might be worth actually stepping back and looking at it from their viewpoint instead of jumping on their nuts.

Mods are people and they have good and bad days. When they have bad days it might be better to go off and have a pint at the pub IMHO. Thats what I do and started doing that after a few of my posters on another forum took me aside and pointed out where I was wrong. We are all human and at times make mistakes. (well, except for some copilots and they know it all! :) )

I totaly agree with your idea to clean up a little the forums, however restricting to only pilots you will loose a lot of enthusiasts like me that only here have a voice in the aviation cyberspace. My idea : If you visit Cathay Pacific virtual pilots web you will find that they have smartely selected the forum users by using a technical (serious) questionaire. Other places ask you a tecnical question i.e. Airbus:wich color hydraulyc system is powered by RAT. Boeing: RR powered 747-400 how many are the autostart push bottons? etcetera.