Ok, true, as basically all those not egligible for the hallowed halls would still be here.

And what good would that do? By moving the "quality posters" as you call them out of sight, you'd basically leave this place here to exactly the people you don't want here. And they'd be the only ones visible to the outside, as the elite plays elsewhere and outside the public eye... Now what's more scary?

I want a secret forum and I'm willing to put food on Danny's table for it!!!


:cool:

lomapaseo wrote:
Goes for me too, altho I'd chip in a bit now and again if it didn't have to involve Paypal..... as a contribution, rather than a tax.

One OTW thought - a method that might address this connundrum neatly if it were technically feasible in the Jelsoft software universe:

The suggestion is to have restricted THREADS inside generally open forums. (forii?) The person who is Thread starter can define a list of eligible participants when starting the thread.... or can select from pre-fabbed eligibility lists of specific and diverse flavors (left-handers, Wentworth nuts, etc.) Then these 'throttled' threads can come or go, their exclusivity can be enforced, and pprune life will proceed on without having to do any major engine repairs while in mid-flight.

Please note that my published suggestion, above, is intended to constitute public disclosure of this novel technical and business method from a patent point of view; it is free for the taking, free for all.

Danny 'has his work cut out for him', as some say, along with his staff. Like the RAF WW2 solo (multi-engine) bomber pilots over well-defended targets, having compound systems problems (no autopilot alt. hold?) long before they cross over the I.P. :ugh:

Good luck. I hope your intell. and wx briefings are accurate.

Practically, to verify the credentials of all who would wish to join the forum would be a huge task. Far simpler, less cumbersome and fairer too would be simply to make the moderators screen the posts. Any dumb or diversionary posts can simply be killed at source. Some immediacy might be lost - but that shouldn't matter: Pprune is not CNN - but if all posts were screened by the moderators before going up on the board, everyone would be happy. No silly or ill-informed posts on the site, and no need to have special membership conditions or fees.

I offer this as a practical solution because serious discussion of safety issues should involve ATCOs, LAEs, meteorologists, communications specialists, systems safety engineers, air accident investigators, retired air crew, cabin crew, people involved in aircraft manufacture, software specialists, materials specialists -- maybe even a manager could have something useful to say. I would go further and say that it is an indication of a less than ideal attitude towards safety to assume that only pilots have anything worthwhile to say on the subject. Many of the most lively and informative threads Pprune has been responsible have had central contributions from non-pilots.

Danny,

its a really great idea; I hope it goes ahead. There are plenty of forums for all parties with an interest in aviation to participate in, but I for one would certainly welcome a dedicated CHIRP type thread/site open to professional pilots only/ATCOs etc. More than willing to pay a subscription to a site where informed discussion can take place, withou threads degenerating into vilification. I think that the thread should not be viewable to non-qualifying members; there are plenty of other threads for general avaition discussion.

FB:)

Just a quick postscript; I think that PAXboy talks sense in his posts and agree with him.
Cheers,

FB:)

Well!
Let us retired guys in we have years of informed experience to draw upon!
Bunkabuser

If you're retired, enjoy it. Take up as many leisure pursuits as you have time and energy for. Have a laugh with the old boys you once flew with and revel in the days when modern aircraft actually needed a pilot. Just let the aviation world carry on without you, your experience is good but it is just that-experience! Currency, recency and present day involvement is what we are needing not well meaning but outdated opinion. We are all big boys and can hold our own in discussions. Enjoy the summer and long may you draw your well earned pension.:)

And if you experienced one's are allowed in,you can chip in to the one's who are starting in the whole aviation thing!!!

Ah, so you don't want to hear about the use of flaps to hop over a fuel bowser, or the time we got a 4" lightning hole right through the wing, or the time we were thrown upside down in a four engine airplane, or the time we lost all our instruments...and I mean all of them. The sixty knot gust on the rear quarter on touch-down, I would have thought would have been interesting, if not, perhaps the time the ASIs both went eighty knots in opposite directions and we were thrown over the buildings at Palma. Oh, and the 45 minuets with totally frozen elevators and trim. Then the bit about the Russians...dodging them got us a feel for flying the airplane at the pointy end of the envelope: stalling and over-speeding at the same time can be....absorbing. Yeh, then there was the time with the drunk captain, oh and the psychotic one who would like to do flying displays for female visitors to the flight deck. Then there was the other time we lost all our instruments, and........

Nah, you're right, boring, not worth a mention really.

Hi Danny,

If nothing else this thread shows that there are many people other than ATPL holders who are seriously interested in discussing safety incidents and who can provide valuable input. I understand the frustration caused by spurious and unrealistic comments however, the questions posed by those 'outside' of the cockpit often result in valuable discussion that probes the issues to a level than would otherwise occur.

I suggest a forum that is open to those who can provide bonafide proof of a discipline that is:

• Directly related (eg flight crew)
• Allied (eg maintenance, engineering, dispatch, ATC etc)
• Representative of objective thinking (eg tertiary qualified)
• Expert in a related discipline (aviation medicine, human factors etc)

How to implement:

1) Registration with your real name and a scanned copy of a valid (not current) qualification. This information to be kept private by Pprune.
2) One time fee of (USD$10) to cover costs of admin.

It won't be perfect but it will filter a lot of the c:mad:p that currently get's posted.

Cheers

Th

Dear Skytrucker,
One of the most patronising, pompous posts I have ever seen on this forum...don't worry I won't bother!
Bunkabuser

I was going to keep out of this but..

If this new forum is supposed to be concerned with safety incidents, if its restricted to flight crew only, I do wonder how accurate some of the conversations/debates are going to be.

How many flight crew have the relevant access to to maintenance documents (MM's, SRM's, AB's etc.) and manufacturers web-sites such as Boeing Online and Airbus Online for specific aircraft details and procedures?

If your looking to have a serious converstaion about safety without access to the relevant materials then you might as well just start a thread in Jet Blast.

just my five-penny worth:ok:

Sorry Bunkabuser. I was only trying to drive home the point that what we are looking at here is a forum to permit discussion of current safety issues and the effects they may or may not have on the individuals dealing with the situations that have arisen. I am not trying to deter experienced pilots from imparting their knowledge to any interested party, there is as much space as you need to do that on these forums if you want to. Situations change rapidly in aviation and the problems change too. If you are no longer a part of that system, and you no longer are once you retire, then please leave it to those involved.

Skytrucker , that sounds like a load of old bullsh!t.

When you are put out to pasture are you suddenly going to have no valid opinion about the current aviation scene?

It's a profession pure and simple and like most professions the details, practices and standards don't change that quickly.

as an engineer I like to read the relevent contributions, and contribute if I think I have anything to add

Skytrucker is right, IMHO. Rules & regs change and the retired will not necessarily have mechanisms to keep up with this. I think his argument stands, the kind of discussions I envisage may not be enhanced by the out-of-touch. The rest of PPRuNe will still be here.

What's wrong with a forum entitled "Serving Pilots' Forum - a place where current airline pilots can discuss issues away from the rest of us" ;)

A great idea - can I send a scanned copy of my $10? :D

ChewyTheWookie, you have some issues and not to mention a very bad attitude. I've read some of your comments in this forum and in some of the cabin crew forums, I am amazed as to how certain individuals like yourself think the world cannot move forward without you.

"I don't care what the pilots do, or what any other airline does. It is not fair to get cabin crew working all day and not setting aside a single minute for them to rest and have a proper meal."

Harsh reality is that you chose to be an air steward and were prepared to work unsocialable hours with or without breaks, you think that BA cabin crew have got it so hard and it seems that you are very spoilt and do not know how the real world works.

Yeah, why don't we gather up all the retired pilots and electrocute them in order to save oxygen on the planet. Then we can share out all the hours in their logbooks to the young guys so they become instantly experienced and can have great discussions on safety issues.:yuk:

I need to reboot my computer an log on again to check I really read these posts correctly!!!

i think there should be a forum for only professional pilots and retired professional pilots.

there are plenty of forums for everyone to get involved as engineers and atc etc have plenty to teach the rest of us.

is it possible for current type ratings etc to be reasearched from the caa/jaa/faa license number? as this is quick and easy to provide.

as far as admin cash im sure it would not be a problem to everyone but why not see if balpa or ialpa type organisations would not fund it as it would be a gold mine for them.

it is the professional pilots rumour network after all

Bomber Harris: Why not just refresh the page? :cool:

When you retire and hand in your security pass, you immediately start going out of recency. You don't keep up with SOPs, AISs, etc etc. You have a wealth of experience to offer PPRuNe, that's not in question, we are trying to debate the point as to whether or not the opinions of the retired would contribute to the proposed new forum.

The recent B744 thread had some venerable contributions from those retired members who had flown the Classic, the VC10 and the B707. Their combined experiences are considerable, but none of them were relevant to the thread.

I realise some won't get the point, but that's irrelevant too.

B 744 ...thirteen years in command.....is that relevant?
Bunkabuser :confused: :confused:

bunkabuser,

Apparently not. Unlike other professions such as medicine, law and engineering, it would appear that once you retire from aviation you have nothing whatsoever to contribute to a professional forum. In fact it's probably best you get a full frontal lobotomy the day after your retirement to prevent any opinions about your former profession entering and clouding your fast retreating mental faculties.

I'd opt for the lobotomy if only to forget the pleasure and fun the game provided and that I can no longer indulge. :{

Professor James Reason has probably contributed more to Flight Safety than a large number of operational pilots. Discuss!

Danny,

I have only just come across this thread so have not read all the replies, but it is an excellent idea.

Forgive me if I am repeating what may have been mentioned on previous pages as I have not waded thorugh all replies.

5milesbaby on page one mentioned using real names as it would be a private forum - I would be happy with that but could forsee problems as topics that are being discussed may have been raised anon.

A small subscription fee would help cover the effort to create a secure (person wise) forum.

Any way of verifying people as per the private airlines/NATS forums already on PPrune??

I think that real names and identities are a must for anyone wishing to join - available only to the moderators, but a good way of cutting out any willy waving or slanging matches.

There are still calls for a private 'current pilots only forum' as well - if the guys who give up their time to moderate and develop PPrune are happy to do this, all well and good - however - as an ATCO I would feel that discussing CHIRPS etc without ATCO and possibly engineer input would not be entirely beneficial.

Good luck sorting this one out!!

Skytrucker is right.
People like him need their own private forum.

Bunkabuser. Of course your 13 years in the LHS is relevant. The point I was trying to make (not very well) is: where do you draw the line? There are many retired pilots who all have a huge fund of knowledge and experience. But at some point, as things move on in aviation, your knowledge becomes less current, in the strictly technical sense.
Postings like "on the XXX back in the '70s we used to do it like this" are fascinating, but contribute little to a discussion about a more modern a/c.
So what I mean is, the day after you retire, your knowledge is current and extremely relevant. There is then a sliding scale for all of us, until we become the dribbling old boy in the nursing home, the staff whispering: "yes, that senile one, used to be an airline pilot" :ooh:
The question is, where do you make the cut on this sliding scale? When I'm retired, I hope to forget all my SOPs instantly and get out and enjoy it!
ATB
Overstress

May I humbly say that much of the frustration I have with PPRuNe is exactly this - people can't be bothered or don't have enough time to speed-read a thread to see if they're making an *rse of themselves before they post. :ugh: 'Anotherthing' - not that your posting falls into this category ;)

Overstress!
I really don't care too much about this.....thirteen years in B744 LHS....twenty four rears left hand seat four engine heavy jet. SOPs come and go but the B744 goes on for ever!
Bunkabuser ....back to sleep! :zzz:

I think it is a worldwide phenomena which I have heard being described as the arrogance of youth.

Point taken!

Agreed!:)

WTFDIK but...

I seem to have read more than a few accounts of totally current, qualified pilots who don't think it's worth listening to those they deem less knowledgeable. These accounts come from those CVR recordings and the document eventually includes the phrase "the aircraft impacted...."

LO: That was in a flight deck. This is an anonymous forum.

Your point is: :???:

Danny

In theory an excellent idea

Unfortunately, there is a rather distasteful prurience and rush to judgement over any incident that comes to the attention of some posters to this forum, including opinions expressed by those professional pilots who you wish to entertain on your proposed forum.

"any info on xx at yy?
Who was involved" (I really don't like this bit)

Such an incident is then followed by a seemingly never ending chain of analysis by those without the facts (or often the knowledege) to formulate an opinion of the causes of the event.("I don't know anything about the 737 but..." type of remark is pitiful). Sometimes appalling ignorance of the basics is exposed. Regretfully, these remarks/comments are frequently made by pilots who clearly hold professional pilots licences.

Even more sadly, there is on occasions a "holier than thou" judgement made on the actions of unfortunate crew involved.

Great idea. I only wish it would work in practice, but I have my doubts.

I won't even comment on the "what about us" postings made on this thread by those that would not qualify to join.

Anyway, good luck, whatever you decide

Overstress: Proverbs 16:18

So Pontius, why do you bother to put up with us?

Off with their heads should it be?

Don't let it worry you.
 

A couple of points.
This idea sounds a bit elitist.
The next step will be to have forums dedicated to crew on a/c over 20 tonnes and on it will go.
I'd like to know on what side of the fence do the the people for and agin this idea sit on the 744 debate.I mean is this a way to silence the opposition?.
Don't forget we all started off as wanabees.
These days with the security and all there is no way of showing youngsters what we do.I can still remember standing behind the crew flying up the Qld coast in a DC-9 asking tons of questions and the old fokkers coming in from the outback.
I suppose this could be one way bolstering the training scene.Eg to get onto the 'airline pilot forum' on pprune one has to have a cpl for instance.Next minute there is rush on flying sckools.
With the 744 thread don't let it worry you.The crew on the spot did what they knew to be right and if they weren't sure all they had to do was pick up the phone to ops for clarification.What anyone else thinks is irelevant.
Thanks.

:}

Plenty of those here on R&N ;)

Now then, the B744 has been in service for over 20 years. If the likes of "overstress" had been on the B744 for 20 years then he would most likely already be an old f*rt. Since he seems to be claiming to be a bright ray of sunshine then we have to assume that he has only been on the aeroplane for "five minutes" as we used to say.

So why is it that he and his like seem to think that "bunkabuster's" 13 years in the left seat of the B744 doesn't count for much for he is "out of date"? I would have thought that such experience was worth listening to!