Did an A340 Very Recently Land on a taxiway in Sao Paulo?
 

Sao Paulo, Brazil Airport (Question)
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A 23 Feb 06 report that an Airbus A340 landed on a taxiway in Sao Paulo.
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Does anybody know any more?
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Matter raised in a Curt Lewis fltsafety.org newsletter dated 24 Feb

Will keep an eye out for local reports and post if sighted.

Yes.

It was an A340 from TAP Portugal.

Taxiway Landing Sao Paulo
 

Any idea of the date, weather, time, day/night etc?

Rego?

21/02/2006 21:15

SBGR 212100Z 35002KT 9999 FEW010 BKN100 21/19 Q1011 RETSRA WS

Maybe he wanted an ontime gate arrival and took a short cut.

Well...Although I'm on my annual 30 days leave,I'm located in Rio,very close to Sao paulo,and in contact with a few coleagues I've heard nothing of this rumor,and if you know SBGR you would say it isn't very likely...Both taxiways that run parallel to the runways are too narrow and too bumpy for an A340 to land and without being subjected to some damage...I'm pretty confident I would've heard something..

Nothing I could find in the news. Guarulhos image at:

http://www.lideraviacao.com.br/signa...ulhos_01_0.jpg

Or Google Earth 23°25'50.46"S 46°28'06.87W

Looks like the taxiways are just as wide as the runways. It's happened before, and it'll happen again. Notice from Airway it was good VMC. Presume they were approaching visually without confirming on the ILS.

Pardon my ignorance, but I need a clarification. How can one land an aircraft on a taxyway? I mean, there is ILS, lights, markings on the RWY..... How can mistake like that happen? I don't get it...

never say never
 

:sad: hello chaps,

the southerly has some work in progress (as of 2 weeks ago) and the northern only got an ndb app from one direction/ full ils from the other. the vor/dme associated with that ndb is u/s.

so i guess if u were tired and got a late switch to the ndb on the right and were a bit off centre (+-5),it may even be offset by a couple, and got a late vis at decision u could just possibly **** it up and land on a taxi way. anybody who been in and out of gru in dodgy weather will testify that it can get a little bit like hard work flying that ndb procedure coming in from the nw.

unforgivable but possible.:ok:

Runway Aversion
 

Spoke to the captain. Seems he had a runway incursion incident recently so he tries to stay clear of runways wherever and whenever possible.

Runway aversion. A new phobia.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0988036/L/

Better view of the airport.

Things which seems to be unbelievable are happening sometimes.
Some time ago (2004 or 2005) Aeroflot have landed on taxiway at Barcelona. On the first attempt they went go around due to another aircraft on taxiway (while they were sure it is on runway) but on the second attempt they have succeded with a firm landing on TWY Tango :)

Seattle/Tacoma (SEA), Washington is popular for this type of diversion. In 01/04, A DHC-8 landed on Taxiway Tango which is similar to Runway 16R. Also an AA MD-80 has performed this feat.

Coming in from the NW sector,performing a vor/ndb procedure for rwy 27L,it is possible to mistake and land on 27R(rwy's displaced)being 27R the closer one.Not to mention the final procedure leads you in on a angled approach.
There has been a few landings on 27R,having 27L as active,due to low vis/ceiling and MAP for non precision very close to runway...
Actually,you can takeoff/land from taxiways in various airports throughout Brazil,mostly on 1 runway fields.It depends on the PCN X ACN to limit that operation(max weight prob. 737/a320 limited).Landings and takeoff's from taxiways are a reality in aviation,take Ancorage for an example..low vis/poor crew CRM/awareness,workload...nothing that a proper "breifing" can avoid.
In a 3 man crew,if you have the middle jump seat guy"follow"trough..you have a extra set of eyes to help the operating crew,in any phase of flight.
Regards,be well
Spigot

Again,I'm so sorry,but if you look at the link :http://www.lideraviacao.com.br/signa...ulhos_01_0.jpg
You'll see there's only one twy in which someone could land parallel to the rwy's.And believe me there's small "hills" along that twy that would make an airplane in app speeds come off the ground!!!I can be wrong,for someone from Portugal has just mail me saying it indeed happened...weird...very weird...

Yes it has happened, the crew concerned is off duty pending an investigation.

On the 21st of February, an A340 from TAP Portugal landed on a taxiway at SBGR (Guarurulhos, São Paulo).
This incident is being investigated by the proper authorities.
A lot of contributing factors can be advanced: Recent Rain; height of the sun and it's direction at the time; ILS u/s; VOR u/s; phraseology (Brazilian Portuguese).
The aircraft was inspected on site and was given an ok.
The crew are suspended until the conclusions of the investigation.

Check Six, Krueger...

Guys...I'll take it all back...Just received confirmation of the incident from a fellow pilot from Sao Paulo...Indeed happened on Rwy27R TAP A340 landed on Twy B...after refused to accept the fact,insisted the he's not been given instruction to go around..Both pilots were dead headed back to Portugal and removed from duties pending further investigation.It was indeed a very serious incident,as there was an American or United aircraft taxiing back on the same twy.The damage happened only to the twy which isn't prepared for a landing much less of an A340...As for the causes,really,it still amazes me...It was visual at the time,and someone said something about sun glare which I find very unlikely...remember: rwy 27R in the morning ....the sun would be on his tail...Shocking....

Actually the sun was in front of them and regarding the other contributing factors, this incident doesn't surprise me at all.

If its to follow that theory, then maybe we should expect this kind of incident more often?

:confused:

Krueger,

if this dosen't suprise u then i'm shocked!

I for 1 can understand how u can get yourself in this position at gru. however if ur told to do a g/a and u don't and u land on a taxiway....... best of luck with the court martial:ouch:

Krueger,
Did it happened in the afternoon hours?And why it does not surprise you?Is it only a GRU problem?I'm curious,cuz I've been flying in and out of Gru for many years and can see no major problem operating there (I wouldn't say the same of GIG,which is my home base).

Court Martial?
 

Court Martial????!!!! UUUUhhhhhh!

Aren't you being a little bit over the edge? In the best interest of flight safety, you should avoid this type of finger pointing.

One thing is a mistake and a totally different thing is a violation.

Imagine yourself on the controls, on the same situation, then you hear a controller saying something that you don't understand (for instance, go-around in brazilian portuguese, which is totally different than in portuguese). What would you do?

Thank god you don't belong to any acident investigation team!:ok:

Check Six , Krueger...

krueger,

my point is not that i'd court martial theese chaps but that i'm pretty sure that if the boys landed against atc instructions somebody will get 'nasty' with them.

they have my sympathy and my understanding.

as i said i understand how u could get yourself in this position in gru. i have been to gru many times and i have shot approachs there in awful weather with limited nav aids. that's what we get paid for.

the interesting aspect of this incident is the human factors that led to it. we all make mistakes, period. we have to accept that as professional pilots that we when are held accountable for the decisions we make that sometimes the truth will be that on that particular day and in those particular conditions we were wrong, maybee even negligent.

no matter what other factors come to light in this incident the very fact that this crew elected to land on that taxiway was a very poor decision. if you have been to gru i would be suprised if you thought it was an easy mistake.

i hope that their company shows them understanding when dealing with their case. my point is if the facts show that they landed on a taxiway with atc telling them to g/a i would expect them to be in some trouble.

fox 2.... heavy

your statement is based on the fact that they landed knowing that TWR was sending them around. However, that is a point that will be clarified by the investigation. I was made to believe that TWR instructed them to go around in Brazilian portuguese. However, go-around in portuguese is a totally different word.
Check Six, Krueger...

any doubt no doubt!

no doubt we will find out in time.

anyway u look at it it's bad.

knock it off... heavy

At least they had the right aerodrome!

The Afternoon Sun on his tail on 27R?
 

According to Expedia.com TAP{ only arrives pm hrs (late afternoon or early evening). Flts 6077 (tues) or 185 (wednes). It's more likely the sun was in their eyes late afternoon. That would make a lot more sense.

Anybody know the actual flight number/rego?

It's an afternoon arrival, scheduled time 1650LT according to TAP's site.

Conditions an hour before or after are irrelevant; Sao Paulo weather at this time of year changes all the time. And it's been raining in the afternoon almost every day. They would have been landing almost directly into the sun so if the crew say "glare" one should be inclined to accept that. As for ILS/VOR unserviceable, no idea, perhaps someone on here has recent experience.

Regarding Brazilian vs Portuguese, sorry Krueger, can't buy that. In the first place you would have to dig up a very limited ATC guy who wasn't familiar with the differences, considering there's a flight every day. Secondly, and perhaps someone from TAP might clarify, one would expect communication with a European airline to be conducted in English. If it wasn't, there's a wakeup call in itself. Tapes - assuming they still exist and are compared - will no doubt clear it all up.

A Glaring Error
 

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet...s/close-up.jpg
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From the Google image you can easily see that in low visibility the very significantly displaced threshold of r/way 27L could lead to an honest mistake - i.e. you see just the squared (not curving) taxiway threshold and the real 27R threshold to its left (although it wasn't low visibility - just sun-glare - it nevertheless has the same effect, particularly if the sun-glare is exacerbated by a wet reflective runway & taxiway in the late afternoon).

According to a rumor a SAS aircraft took off from a taxiway at ESSA Stockholm Arlanda. The ATC aparantly only said to the pilots, next time, use the runway... =)

There is a healthy discussion going on about this incident on a Portuguese aviation forum, if anyone who understands the lingo is interested please pm me, due to rules i cannot leave the link here.

Safe Flying

I found a quite nice article in the seattle times about those
taxiway landings at Seattle-Tacoma airport somebody mentioned earlier:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._seatac13.html

Doesn't a landing briefing include a wrap up on the airport layout before starting the approach, considering the risk of a runway misinterpretation in the case you decribe? Don't buy into that. Bad airmanship.

Guys,I'am more and more convinced now,that this was an honest mistake.
Regarding language,99 times out of 100 TAP pilots conduct their R/T in Brazil or wherever in English.The only thing they say in portuguese down here are good mornings,thank you etc..The word for "go around" in brazilian port. is completely different from that one used in portuguese in Portugal ("arremeter" in Brasil and "borregar" in Portugal,but I guess the Portuguese pilots would understand the brasilian "arremeta!" as I would understand their "borregar".)The TAP pilot apparently,said that he thought the instruction was given to another aircraft coming in behind him.Those things sometimes happen even between americans and Brits,don´t they?
In Gatwick in 1988 I heard the following:
-Ma'am,let's make sure we're speaking the same language(very southern american pilot)
-Ok,I'm speaking english,you?(female controller without missing a beat)

not a valid reason
 

So why did they not request clarification or switch to English if needed?

Hey Founder....I Liked that One...:O ;) :ok: :ok: :ok:

Johnbr thanks for that follow-up re Portuguese vs Brazilian. Much of a muchness. Hope the TAP crew aren't crucified, lessons are learned and widely disseminated.