Well said Airbus Girl!

Fully agree with your post, especially this part: "It has been scientifically proven that a small degree of tiredness has the same effect as a small amount of alcohol.

Yet drinking is seen as a heinous crime .... but flying whilst knackered is seen as part of the job."

I don´t want to camouflage the actions of this one pilot, but it´s time people (especially airline managements and policymakers) start looking at the full picture of all factors leading to impaired pilot judgement.

I fully appreciate all sides of this debate. I can understand how pilots would feel that their integrity is being questioned should airlines elect to make breath tests prior to flights compulsory. But as someone mentioned earlier, do you not have to walk through a metal detector? Do you feel the same way because the airline doesn't trust you not to take a gun on board?

I am also a little disapointed with Danny, being a moderator. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - this is very important. However, why do you insist on basing what should be a common sense decision on statistics that we all know would not produce a negative result?

We are all very quick to attack the free press, but wouldn't a quick breath before each flight stop such stories?

Just a thought.

Cheers all

A breath test would stop all stories, it would also save companies money. I would personally take one before every flight, but make sure I had not had any alchohol 24 hrs previous, but if positive then I would take a day off sick.
It is just like somebody walking out of a pub and heading towards their car when a policemen advises that they do not drive the car as they have had too much to drink.
Easy, stop the offence before it is committed.
All this reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunt, kill them before they have a chance.

She had probably read our new 'rostering deal' and felt depressed like the rest of us :(

Easyprisons comment may appear to be flippant but might not be too short of the mark....anyone who's experinced seemingly endless multi-leg days often ending in faceless hotel rooms, a hopelessly disrupted social life, the tedious repetion of short haul work can become mentally and physically fatigued resulting in depression which is only excaerbated by knowing one is trapped in the system until a way out can be found...not always easy in the aviation environment....

Alcohol can offer a temporary relief...as can drugs....fatigue will result in underperformance just as effectively as either and it's underperformance that is the real issue here.

I know of no recent accidents to aircraft that have been traced to alcohol or drugs (outside of private aviation) but more than a few can be traced directly or indirectly to fatigue....eg. The Halifax 747.

Lets have some media concern about the many hundreds of crew that are operating at below their best due to heavy rostering...
And please spare me the fatuous remarks about getting out of the kitchen etc....we live in the real world..

Fatigue vs. abuse
 

Good morning,

It is a given that any kind of abuse, alcohol or drugs, while involved in aviation is simply not allowed, accepted or legal. It is not and should not be tolerated. Period.

However, I agree with poorwandering1 completely. We cannot take our eyes of the abuse issue but we need to focus the brunt of our attention on Flight Time Limitations/rostering. Those of us involved in aviation probably agree, I hope, that 'predatory scheduling' is a much bigger problem than abuse. It has cost lives in the past and it will continue to do so unless practices are changed.

I can already hear/read the reply: "another spoiled pilot longing for the good old days". Not true. The real issue here of course is safety for the pax AND myself. And I will claim that fatigue is a bigger problem than abuse.

Any takers??

Regards,

Ramrise

I would definately agree with you Ramrise...

The problem does not get solved by us all pontificating on this forum. We must find another way!

Having suffered easyjets rosters for a number of years, I agree totally with Ramrise and I believe easyprisons comment reflects the continuing deliberate failure to address the problem properly.

It is a disgrace.

Just to clarify my earlier post...I would not tolerate anyone presenting themselves for duty under the influence of either alcohol or drugs....
I simply believe that the use of alcohol on stopovers and short duty breaks is the 'effect' and not the cause...
I don't blieve that we have a problem with hard-core alcoholics...statistics indicate quite the contrary...we must be some of the best disiplined professionals around...
Alcohol is being used by people who are probably only moderate drinkers needing an escape from the repetitive pressures forced on them in an increasingly demanding schedule...
Pilots are flying when they're mentally below par...that's not new...but where is the limit..?

Fatigue can't be measured by blowing into a machine or in blood samples... yet it is every bit as deadly and far more common than alcohol abuse...maybe just not as sexy for the tabloids...:(

Next thing we will reported by the responsible professionals at screeninig that they think we are too tired to work.

Or a law will be passed to prevent tiredness.
What a joke.
Ithink BALPA & GATCO should adress these issues pretty quick before an accident does happen. They say safety is expensive, wait till you have an accident.

Taking sides
 

Seems two me that there are two arguments (four parties) here:

A."Generally all is well" vs. B."We should take it a lot more seriously"
&
A."Company breathtesting is a liberty" vs B."Company breathtesting will solve it all".

As I read through, I have to say I tend to belong to the Bs - even though it may seem an extreme stand.

For a start we have company alcohol limits which are not the same as legal limits and we have habits in everyday life (lifestyle) which are not compatible with handling machinery and making good judgements.

Both of these anomolies need addressing. Companies have to toe the party (legal) line here. Crews, whether they like it or not,
have to accept that companies need to make sure that the laws are being followed. Aircrews have the last word in the air, represent their companies and generally take on a lot of responsibility. It isn't a "gentleman's fault" we are talking about here but a life and image threatening one.

And by the way, the British Press has been going downhill for years. When you are out of the country for a while and return to read what was a once reasonable news sheet to find it full of scandals, unknown "personalities" and bad taste, just no real news, then you realise it. The only way to deal with that is to give no cause for criticism, for they will cheerfully ruin anyone's career or position.

Ramrise you are correct in terms of the industry and esp. in the easyJets case. All aberrations follow an auditable trail-the roster.

Few Cloudy-hows retirement from the eagle's nest-Whilst no sane pilot would disagree with the outcome your measures may deliver-the execution is a little 'rough'; low cost but a sticking plaster on a cut that won't heal.

This is an example of the industry finding is own level and the consequence of fashionable roster practises-its time to pay back.

Your point about the press is correct. So one individual can sink a ship; which is why statistical evidence of the part that alcohol plays is irrelevant from one perspective.

This is a very bright and clear signal that all is not well with the world of low cost who use CAP 371. CEOs and CAA take note.

The very best can become your nemisis in a very short space of time-MAKE easy follow a 5/3 pattern LIMIT changes-and if that does not suit the bussiness or the investors - we all know an airline that can.

Retirement is fine LF, thanks. Lots of bicycle and guitar. Not quite so much Pprune.

How is the nest?

By the way, I don´t think it is only a low cost carrier problem.....

Has the name of the Pilot been released yet?
I have one person in mind I really hope it's not her........

WB

Little Friend - I am not being rude but I have just read your post several times and it is almost totally incomprehensible. It is like a riddle or something. What exactly are you trying to put forward? I have the feeling you actually do have something to say but I just cannot get it. Please re-transmit in a non-cryptic form so we can all understand. If English is not your first language then please excuse me.

Hi NSF

It isn't.

FC

wingbar:

No, no name has been released, and nor should it at the moment.

And nobody in their right mind would post any names on this site.

I was in a hotel bar last night talking to a captain of a certain eastern european airline. He was completely drunk so I thought he had a few days leave. At midnight, he told me that he had to go to bed as he had to be at the airport at 5am. He staggered up to his room!
Not so unusual I think in some countries.

How the hell did a passenger smell alchohol on the pilot's breath. It is getting into a state of paranoia now. Anyone can accuse anybody under the new laws. It could even get to the situation now when somebody is being ejected from the plane for whatever reason makes an accusation. My view is that the level needs revising and also a re-education (as FL said) is required. Which must include the CAA (as the governing body), the aviation employers, the aviation employees (which includes all subject to the new law), BALPA, GATCO and associated Unions.

Rgds
ILS 119,5

Condor,

you are a prick. I have archived your post in case those you slur wish to take issue with you once you've deleted it.

Get a life, don't post hearsay or malicious gossip without first-hand knowledge. Little of what you posted bears any resemblance to the facts of the matter. Certainly there was NO evidence of any wrongdoing.

public concern?
 

Washington AP

"There is a higher level of public awareness," said Greg Overman, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Union, which represents pilots at Fort Worth, Texas-based American Airlines. "The number of false accusations has risen, and even when there's a false accusation by a passenger or a security screener, it tends to make headlines."



... just a little note from "the other side of the pond".

If I could just re-iterate the point made by the Squid earlier in this thread:

Quote:

---

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

---

This thread, more than likely, was started by a hack who was counting on a bit of Gossip and has got PLENTY.



Unplugged has not contributed anything to the discussion other than starting the thread and looking at his/her profile and seeing they can't even spell 'Captain' correctly has me thinking:

"WOOP WOOP....WARNING WARNING!"

HG :ok:

wawkrk

I too told a similar story by a reliable lady who personally witnessed a similar instance only this was a certain airline eh from down under. Replace the hotel bar with a sailing club bar, replace going to a bed for a few hours with having to head directly to an airport to take control of a commercial jet. The scenario about being totally legless and hardly able to stand up would not need to be replaced.

It's funny how clever marketing can deceive the travelling public that certain airlines are squeaky clean with flight crews that you can depend on, it's disconcerting how much reality seems to be removed from the truth. How many incidents are occuring that we don't know about? P*ssed pilots & suicidal pilots at the controls are hardly the reality I expected. I know what airline I'll be avoiding when I'm travelling to Oz this year, question is am I unintentionally by choosing another airline just jumping unbeknowst to me from the frying pan into the fire.

P*ssed pilots who are drinking within the bottle to trottle time just aren't cute or smart or funny, the're downright dangerous, selfish & irresponsible. As Danny rightly stated on another thread one only has to look into many of the profiles of the self declared pilots on this site or speak to them to see them unashamed, openly admit that drinking is way top of the list of their pastimes if not their only one (some of you must lead very boring, empty lives :rolleyes: ). It almost seems a proud right of passage in a profession which demands responsibility & whose members may be responsible for 100's of lifes at a given minute.

At the risk of sounding 'too puritanical', some smart@ss suggested here that I stick to paxing in pilotless airplanes perhaps he & his type should have stuck to flying planes on Microsoft Simulator rather than putting lives at risks in their wink wink, hush hush, nudge nudge environments. :mad:

I am told I know who this lady is. All I can say is she is one of the most proffessional people I have ever known. It must have been a real problem for her to get into this state.
I hope all works out for her

Just rereading this thread and marked on HandSpringGuy's latest submission and journalistic paranoia.. Of course, unless the posters are then lying about what they write (reference to Danny's "elicit certain responses" then in some ways what is the problem? They will hear the information somewhere sometime and get it corrupted in the editing process anyway, rather than some "secret cabal of pilots" whereby one day someone will break rank.

To Condor

Either get your facts straight or don't bother posting.

Re: the Manchester Go-Arounds.

Firstly the passenger did not smell "alcohol on their (the pilots) breaths" - she didn't meet them, she in fact rang the police anonomously, after landing alledgeding that the crew sounded so relaxed on the PA they must be drunk........got that?

Secondly it was not an "alledgedly positive breath test" it was a negative test for both pilots......

Apart from that your post was perfectly accurate, yes it has all gone quiet - there is nothing further to report, and the only fingers being pointed are in the direction of the woman who made the telephone call.

There is a human side to this of course; as we all studied HF and CRM maybe certain aspects of the human response to the environment need to be considered.

Firstly, the regulations on the consumption of alcohol and use / misuse of substances are well known to all of us. Secondly, until a full investigation has been completed, and the incident has been adequately examined any opinion on the culpability of the pilot must be reserved.

However, the long term effect of stress and fatigue may well contribute to anyone reacting to a set of circumstances in an irrational manner or in a way which is completely out of character.

I took a few points from a CRM / HF book regarding the effect of fatigue on the body / mind:

ƒÞ More willing to accept poor performance
ƒÞ Show signs of poor judgment
ƒÞ Impaired thinking
ƒÞ Irritability and mood swings
ƒÞ Euphoria
ƒÞ Punchy
ƒÞ Decreased response time
ƒÞ Decreased motor skills



One could argue that a single, isolated incident could well be the result of acute or chronic fatigue: the addition of a "life crisis" could be the straw which breaks the camel's back. The pilot who has overindulged the night before duty could be displaying traits which the first 4 lines account for. Lines 5 and 6 would depend on how the person was generally disposed; do they laugh things off or become aggressive?


Stress is the body's response to the demands placed upon it. In aviation this could be any of these ( not exhaustive):

ƒÞ Medicals
ƒÞ Checkrides
ƒÞ Illness
ƒÞ Pay
ƒÞ Conflict
ƒÞ Fears related to flying
ƒÞ Time schedules
ƒÞ Passengers
ƒÞ Noise and vibration
ƒÞ Temperature and humidity
ƒÞ Diet
ƒÞ Dehydration
ƒÞ Altitude changes
ƒÞ Confined space
ƒÞ Poor visibility
ƒÞ Fatigue

The symptoms one might encounter:

ƒÞ Muscle tightness
ƒÞ Aches and pains
ƒÞ Upset stomach
ƒÞ Anxiety
ƒÞ Depression
ƒÞ Feelings of depletion
ƒÞ Emotional burnout
ƒÞ Emotional outbursts
ƒÞ Withdrawal
ƒÞ Conflict in relationships
ƒÞ Lack of energy

We experience most of the stressors each and every day and no doubt one or more of the symptoms.

We rely on a our time off and a good nights rest / sleep to recover; when that does not happen we may resort to having "just one more" to help sleep. Strange bed, disturbed Circadians etc.

When does that "just one more" reach the boundary, or cross it??

With the continuing drive for savings / increased productivity the hours crews have to work are increasing ( I'm talking Duty here as Flight time may be substantially less than Duty) and the standards they have forced on them are reducing ( cheaper hotels / noisier / poor food / poor facilities). In the end something has to give.

Without a commitment from the airlines to actually practice what they preach in CRM or someone invents a fatigue "breathalyser" things will get worse before they better.

Very good post.

As managements prefer to overlook the facts about fatigue, it must be convenient to have media divert attention with cases like this.

Edited: On second thought content of post seemed more suitable for another related thread.


:yuk: :confused: :bored: