Not at all gashcan, but you post made me think about the wider implications of testing, tests for one industry where safety is a factor should mean tests for all industries where safety is a factor.

You are quite right and I wholly agree with you.

I fully expect breath testing to be introduced into my job (UK NHS Ambo) within the next few years, albeit probably on a random basis, the culture of blame we live in will make sure of that.

Just before everyone provides every link to the articles, do yourselves a favour and just go to the Google News website and type 'easyjet' into the search field and hey presto, you will have links to every report published on the internet in chronological order.

Whilst the subject is one that obviously makes many of us uncomfortable and it was first revealed exclusively here on PPRuNe, almost eight hours before easyJet made an announcement, it serves little purpose to try and shoot the messenger. Obviously, easyJet have known about this incident since Saturday and it would appear that they have had their hand forced by the rumour that was first posted here.

What we should be avoiding is petty ideas about breath testing before every flight. I personally would find it offensive if my employer didn't trust me to turn up to work drug and alcohol free. The sensationalism used by the media in an attempt to highlight their fantasy that because of two recent court cases and now todays new revelation as somehow being indicative of a 'problem' is obviously just the news editors way of generating interest in their stories.

Can anyone provide any idea on the number of all commercial passenger flights originating in the UK and also flights operated by UK pilots worldwide per annum? The two cases that went to court recently were over incidents that occurred long before the court cases themselves. How many incidents of this kind have we had in the last 12 months? How many flights are we talking about? Do the maths and at least show yourselves to be slightly more intelligent than the subnormal luvvies and drama queens who make out that this is some kind of a huge problem. It is just the media luvvies making mountains out of molehills.

Every case where it is highlighted that a pilot has been caught over the limit is bad news and the media love to have a go at pilots because in reality they do probably envy our supposedly glamorous jobs and lifestyles. For those of us in the 'know' we can just roll our eyes and confirm to ourselves that those media luvvies really do live in a fantasy world. What we need to be sure of, and I'm sure that the vast majority of us are responsible enough to make sure that we will never become one of those who break the rules and bring the medias attention to this miniscule problem.

We all know that if we are impaired in any way, in fact we are not even supposed to work when we have even a simple common cold, then we call in sick. Those who may be under the weather because of alcohol consumption are able to exercise their right to call in sick too. Their own shame and guilt in knowing that they probably shouldn't have imbibed so much at the time is often enough to prevent it happening again. In this particular case, and I am speculating right now, it would appear that the authorities were tipped off by someone. Is that right or wrong? With random screening there is no guarantee that a pilot over the limit would be caught because the numbers are in fact so miniscule. Draw your own conclusions about the methods used to single this particular pilot out.

In conclusion, this incident was first reported here on PPRuNe. That in itself appears to have forced easyJets hand in admitting publicly that the incident in fact was true. You can't keep something like this a secret, no matter how embarrassing it may be to a company and to the huge majority of us in the profession. At least we can discuss it and show the media luvvies that we are aware that a tiny proportion of our colleagues will have human failings. What we shouldn't be doing is giving the media ammunition with stupid suggestions that we should just be tested before every flight. They're just story tellers, we're not... at least I hope that we can discuss this as fellow professionals without descending to the medias gutter levels.

Just to clear up any confusion, it was my post that started the discussion about breath testing (although it did say that I disagree with it, what I really wanted was informed discussion to shut the R5 phone in bods up !) and since reading Danny's post I have chosen to delete it.

Danny clearly does not want the thread to go that way and I would ask that we leave it there, as a courtesy to Capt PpRuNe.

'Drunk'
 

Well done Danny.
Just a point that bothers me; the Biased, (Bigotted, Brusque, Beligerent, whatever you choose) Broadcasting Corp have all day been referring to the 'Drunk' pilot. Just what quialifies as drunk? Where does the transition from sober to drunk and back to sober occur? I called and challenged them on the point and they obligingly changed the reports to 'allegedly drunk'. (on 5live at least)
We gave them the story so have no-one to blame but ourselves but I do wish more of us would complain about such inaccurate and biased reporting. To report that she failed a breath test would have been accurate but far less inflamatory. Which is, of course, why they used the term 'Drunk'!

How does the song go? "PPRuNe is all around you, you can feel it in the air".

Its in all the papers this morning, as far as I could tell, and as Danny says it no doubt came from here. THAT, dare I say, is when we have to be circumspect and unspeculative - just to save the whole industry being thought of as incapable. And wouldn't the press love that thought. :p

This is a Rumour forum!!
 

What part of that is not clear to most of you?

Unplugged started a thread based on a rumour. Perfectly acceptable. For so many ppruners to attack him in such a way is sad (no names mentioned: CaptainProp & Sparkle!!)

Sort your lives out. If you don't like hearing bad news, perhaps you should stay away from this forum!

Am I alone in finding it additionally irritating that all the tabloid coverage has focused so heavily on the fact that this pilot is female? If it had been a man it certainly wouldn't have made the front page of Metro, and it's hard to imagine a banner headline saying "man pilot fails breath test", while all the headlines mention her sex in this case. Perhaps the tabloids assume men are pi$$ed all the time, but it's unusual for a woman.

Incidentally I wonder if there's some confusion as to legal limits reflected in the coverage. In the UK as I understand it the driving limit is 0.35 in breath but 0.80 in blood - perhaps some of the comparisons here are confusing the two.

Just to point out that I edited the title of this thread from 'easyJet - pilot drunk' to 'easyJet - pilot tested over the limit?'. It doesn't help us if our own colleagues are too stupid to realise that what they publish on here is usually picked up by the media and if one pilot calls another pilot a 'drunk' when in fact they meant 'tested positive for alcohol', then perhaps we shouldn't expect any better from the media.

Why should easyJet have made this public. Surely they have a duty of care to their passengers and staff to investigate and take appropriate action, not to release a press statement each time somebody makes a misguided error of judgment. Danny I’m surprised you are proud to have a fellow pilot’s future debated in a kangaroo court style without the full facts…

As an aside, remember there is always someone in the World who doesn't like you:( ..... give them the slightest opportunity to "get you" and they probably will

and example ..... a few days R&R in Cancun, A Hotel staff member who clearly didn't like the look of me although I have no idea why:confused: .... I remember he dressed in a very odd style(to me at least) and maybe I frowned whenever I saw him?

anyway, checked out and waiting outside for the coach to the airport ..... there was my "Friend" looking on and then talking seriously to another staff member ..... a moment later I was asked to return to checkout to confirm I had payed my bill :{ (with those around me thinking I was a "Career Criminal")

a few minutes later ... my Inocence confirmed and back to the Coach ..... with my new "friend" growling at me from the hotel lobby :ugh:

I've been always wondering why airline rules stipulating "no alcohol for a minimum of eight hours before reporting for duty"? It all depends what you drinking (two bottles of wisky or a glass of wine), who you are (45 kg female or 110 kg male), what's your experience (if you drink very regularly in large qtys it causes much less effect on you), and finally it depends of individual body's metabolism.
Our airline stipulating min 48 (fourty eight!) hours before the flight and that's our CAA request :}

I believe it would be fair to measure/regulate/prescribe max amount of promilles only rather than stupid time period limits...

Will the FO also face disciplinary action as a result of this incident?

It is alledged that he smelt alcohol on the pilots breath but failed to report it to his employer/authorities.

Just a thought....

Perhaps the FO *did* report it to the authorities....?

Not sure what the initially stated promille figure means but the UK limits for flying are:

9mg (road 35) alcohol per 100ml breath.
20mg (road 80) alc per 100ml blood.
27mg (road 107) alc per 100ml urine.

Anyone know how the promille converts?

From CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html



'Drunk' easyJet pilot suspended
Wednesday, January 12, 2005 Posted: 1245 GMT (2045 HKT)



BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- An easyJet pilot has been suspended while the airline investigates whether she showed up for a flight drunk, the company says.

The pilot had been scheduled to fly a 6:45 a.m. flight on January 8 from Berlin's Schoenefeld airport to Basel, Switzerland, but was "prevented from flying duty on suspicion of being over the alcohol limit," spokesman Steve Eisenberg said Wednesday.

The airline instead found another pilot, and the flight left at 7:09 a.m. local time, he said.

The pilot has been suspended while the airline conducts an internal investigation, he said.

British law requires that pilots not consume alcohol for a minimum of 8 hours before reporting for duty.

London-based easyJet's regulations are stricter, banning all alcohol 10 hours before flight time and limiting the number of drinks pilots can have in the 14 hours before that, Eisenberg said.

The company has 1,081 pilots, he said.

"We have never before encountered (an incident) such as this. Should the allegations be proved, easyJet would be disappointed and distressed," Eisenberg said.

Schoenefeld airport refused comment.

In Germany, at least, if you fail a breath test then the cops take you to a doctor for a blood test. (We have a friend who does this work at all sorts of odd hours; it's a nice little earner and she gets to meet lots of British soldiers.) So you are going to get nailed on the basis of a blood test in any case.

I was getting a lift in our flight surgeon's car, back to my compound in Nigeria. There was a stack of blank FAA or maybe DOT or DEA or whatever it was, drug test reporting forms there, so that I looked one over. Scary stuff! Either you fill it out, fail the test and you are toast or you refuse to sign, fail the test and you are toast... there is no clever out if you have been misbehaving. If your number comes up for that random test you had better be clean.

As noted, yes, the world has changed. 20 years ago most of us were hooting with the owls before going out to fly with the eagles. But that was then and this is now.... Either you hang up the headset and bore everyone with tales of how it was 'when I' or else you adapt to the way it is now.

There have been quite a few stories about the barman (who else, really?) blowing the whistle on his customers, come to that.

Part of the reason I used to drink is not to notice what was going on around me. That might well include some little pr*ck deciding to get even with me by dropping a dime. Heck, some companies reward whistle-blowing!

Beanbag, re the attention and the pilot being female. I must say when I heard the headline about a pilot over the limit I didnt think twice about it, but then when the story went on to talk about a female captain I did stop what I was doing to pay more attention. For me it's the first incident invloving a female member of the flight crew that I have heard of.

I wonder what the real story is this time, like the BA guys you always hear later who shopped who and what it was all about, love triangles etc etc....

FS

What do people think the correct course of action for the first officer should have been? I presume he would have tried the quiet word in the ear that perhaps the Captain took a sickie today. Or perhaps he would have been frightened to do even that?

What I cannot understand is how this woman, who must have really worked hard to become a captain, and must have shown real conviction in a male-dominated environment, suddenly lost it all to a few lousy drinks.... what was she thinking? Where did all her conviction go???

The mind boggles... Also, this is REALLY bad press for female pilots, after they built up quite a 'good' reputation over the past couple of years.

It's not just the airline industry that is suffering from this type of regulation.

Banks have Basel II, other companies have to comply with Sarbanes-Oxley and some of the other legislation floating around is beyond belief too. In reality, will it make a real difference?

As a professional in another field, I have deep sympathy for airline crews, who it would appear now cannot enjoy a normal life and who will be persecuted for reporting with a level of alcohol, that frankly, probably would not affect their judgement and that is difficult to judge without the aid of testing apparatus.

How many crashes, on scheduled airline flights, have been caused by pilots under the influence of alcohol?

Unfortunately, once legislation is passed, it will be enforced. i'm just awaiting BJCCs comment :-)

I have been flying as a pax since 1976 and do about 90 sectors a year. I don't feel any safer as a result of this new approach.

I wish I could influence a change, but will have to settle for expressing empathy for this lady (if the allegations are true.) I am sure that ATPLs would not report if they felt they were endangering their passengers and crew.

flapless,

Others have already pointed out that my first words were not to be taken as sincere, and I agree with Wizofoz's analysis.

I hope - no, I'm sure - that your new rostering system will solve all your problems, after all, the 'new rostering systems' that have been churned in and out in the last seven years or so in your company have invariably worked beautifully and to always to the pilots' benefits.

(That, again, was sarcasm, just in case you still couldn't spot it).

A quick call to the T&G office in Luton will confirm that there are (and have been for some time) a number of easyJet pilots who are members of that union, as was the pilot who was assisted by them some time ago.

Oh, and I'll stay in the conversation when it suits me, thanks all the same for your offer!

Well the story has just made the BBC 6 o'clock news

Final 3 Greens

I hate to disappoint.....

It may have escaped your notice, but this happened in Germany, it is therefore a matter of how the German Police and Prosecution Authority chose to proceed. Nothing to do with UK law and how that is enforced.(although there are circumstances when she could be prosecuted under UK law)

In any event, yes, law is passed to be obeyed, if not, then yes it gets enforced. As for impingement on life style? Well depends on your life style doesn't it? I don't drink often, so the UK legislation would make no change to my world. Others drink more, but with some care they can easily avoid being over the limit for flying or driving.

As far as I can find, there are no airline accidents where alcohol was involved in the UK. That may be different in other parts of the world.

If you do some research, you will find that the CAA asked for the UK legislation to be introduced as a result of a recommendation from AAIB in respect of a light aircraft accident. (Pauses for howls of indignation). Common sense says you cannot have one rule for private pilots and one for airline pilots. Hence the law applies to both, in the same way as a bus driver is subject to the same drinking driving laws as a car driver is.

As to the levels, I have no idea why Europe decided they were the levels that should be set, but they did, the CAA and Government adopted that level as a result. In any event, it really doesn't matter as both the pilots so far dealt with in the UK were well over that limit.

As to this lady being drunk, I doubt she was. Having said that, I have known people arrested as the result of a breath test result of about the same level who were certainly also unfit to drive also.

BJCC

I was just being playful, thus the :-) icon. As (you are) a police officer, I realise that you must enforce the laws passed by the government of the day, regardless of your personal feelings.

The condundrum seems to be how an individual tests their own compliance, accurately and thus avoids becoming a criminal.

I do fnd it ironic that the people who pass such laws in this country have bars in the workplace and apparently use them on duty.

Final 3 Greens,
I think you'll find BJCC is no longer in the police, although when asked when he left by myself, he wouldn't answer.

You'd be forgiven for thinking he was indeed plodding away given the flavour of his answers.
However for someone who tries to write in precise terms re the law and its application, he does make some howlers.
The idea of drunkeness re driving law in the UK has no definition.The merely differentiates as to whether tou are over the limit, or whether you are "unfit" either through drink or drugs.
The analogy of the Public Sevice Vehicle-busdriver-and the car driver is not quite so simple.
Same law yes, but eg in the case of a bus driver with schoolchildren on board, the penalties would be much more severe.
With aviation, things are simpler with in effect a zero tolerence approach.
There is a concept of he idea of public responsibility that an airline pilot should have to his pax which seperates the probable punishment notwithstanding the same legislation applies

Mach

Thanks for the pointer - having revisited BJCCs profile, I see he is "air traffic", which conjures up irreverent memories of Dan Akroyd in a T38 complete with "Blues & twos!"

Final 3 Greens

Who would these people who have bars and use them on duty be?

I was a Police officer, no longer.

I agree with the condundrum, but one or 2 glasses 8-12 hours before you fly, or work isn't going to be there in the morning. 10 pints then you are running a big risk. The problem is the area in between. It may not be a popular thing to say, but being careful, or going without is really the only way....It all comes down to what someone values most, thier job or a drink.

As to feeling safer? Well, I arrested a pilot, turned out to be just over the drink drive limit, on his way into LHR one afternoon. He insisted his driving was not affected (it was, it was crap which is why he was stopped). He didn't fly that afternoon, mostly because he spent a fair amount of it sat in the Police station but to be honest I wouldn't want him flying me or my family, so if this deters him then great.

BJ

Did you ever see his driving when he was sober ?:}

Final 3 Greens

If he drove like that sober, then he would never have passed a driving test.

mach79

I ignored your question, because it's not relevent.
Any more than your claims to be 'more senior' than PC are, or your reasons for no longer being.

If you want to turn this into a slanging match, feel free, to do it elsewhere.

You are right, there are 2 offences as you stated, and your point is?

As regards to the bus driver, the fact he had passengers on board would lead to a stiffer penelty, in exactly the same way, I would guess that a private pilot would get a lower penelty to an airline pilot with the same BAC reading. However time will tell on that score.

Oh for heavens sake, who woke bjcc up? Do we have to endure the endless replies that try to whittle the argument down to its sub atomic particle levels with comparisons to bus drivers and whatever? Give us a break. If you're going to post your opinion then at least give it 12-24 hours before you jump in with your 'last word' analasys instead of trying to reply to every post as it appears. It makes the thread ever so dull when we have to hear [sic] the monotonous and never ending drone of one mans reminiscing about when he was a plod and the law actually means this or that. :rolleyes: Can't you just point us to previous threads on similar topics where you have dragged a dead subject up umpteen times with your stock answers. :hmm:

I'll get me hat now. :{ :zzz:

Answer? .... the Houses of Parlament of course :p

Our own Parlament has a number of Bars and were recently discovered to have never been "Licensed" :( after xxx knows how many years of operation :hmm:

Cargo

He's a policeman.

He has to have the last word.

And you have to agree with him.

BJCC,
You ignored my question because you wouldn't have liked the answer you would have to have given because it would have given the date you joined-and no, Z-Cars probably wasn't on TVwhile you pounded your beat-correct?

Thanks for telling me I was right about drink driving legislation son.Only thing is, I was was probably reading ot while you were still at school.
Re your question"The point is?" , the point is the definition of being drunk is nowhere to be mentioned.When you said that you doubted she was drunk, it was meaningless.

Regards testing the pilot, you appear to write with such relish, that you seem to have issues re pilots that will probably cause you problems in your new chosen career.

Captain Morgan, indeed!

What has annoyed me reading through the posts has been the reaction of some pilots to this "rumour and news" posting which was pretty obvious to be genuine from the start

I wonder what would your response would be if you had a child on a bus that was going to be driven by someone caught under the influence, would you mind if the story was out in the open as soon as?

The days of keeping things quiet until proven guilty are over.

I genuinly feel sorry for her and maybe airlines and unions should be taking more steps to understand why it seems to be happening more often, if indeed it is.

Astro Domine (ex nav per chance?), as I stated previously easyJet have not made any attempt to hide this incident from their employees.

You seem to be suggesting that easyJet are misleading everyone in that there has been previous drink/flying incidents involving pilots within the company. Pilot members of the TGWU are extremely rare (I have met one in my whole career), but you are suggesting that a number of pilots have used the T&G to somehow assist them to escape from retribution in previous incidents. I personally am not aware of a single other incident of this kind in easyJet's history, nor am I aware of any pilot ever attempting to fly whilst 'under the influence' and it subsequently being hushed up. You, however, appear to have the advantage of me. Despite not appearing to be either a commerical pilot or an employee of easyJet your 'insight' into all that goes on within the company is remarkable. It is quite simple - either easyJet or you is not telling the truth. You are hiding under a cloak of anonimity to make exremely serious and unsubstantiated allegations. You should either clarify your previous claim or withdraw it completely.

This world seems to full of self righteous twits with ready commentary on a subject of which they know very little but such is the pilots' lot I guess. It was until relatively recently that, should you have been sitting in a french cockpit, a glass wine would have been an integral part of the crew meal. Lots of pranged french aircraft everywhere ? I don't think so.:ok:

Autobrake

It was from this knowledge, as a long time pax user of AF (and others) that prompted my earlier comment that I don't feel any safer because of this new legislation.

There are plenty of reasons that I do feel safer, e.g. new generation aircraft, more experience operating jet aircraft and learning the lessons (as 411a recently pointed out about upsets), better nav kit etc etc

Hope I'm not one of the opinionated twits you mention ;)

It was all over the German national television news last night.
hasn't done any of any favours I'm afraid. :(

Sorry, new to all this - first post. Can I ask what will happen to the pilot concerned? Will there be criminal charges, or will they lose their licence?