Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA
 

It must surely never be the intention of a reasonable employer to censure free debate amongst its employees, of terms, conditions and potential union representation. Therefore, this thread WILL continue along those lines and those lines alone.

This post is to advise readers of the current position of PPRuNe with regard to the temporarily withdrawn thread regarding Ryanair, as well as opening a channel for debate to be carried out under specific conditions.

Firstly, the removed thread is still under review by PPRuNe and it remains our intention to return it to the public domain once it has been ensured that anything which leaves PPRuNe open to legal action has been removed or edited. Unfortunately, due to personal circumstances, I have little access to the Internet at the moment and I am only able to view the thread, and assess it, on an opportunity basis. Please be assured that it will return, and will in all probability be merged with this and other threads to ensure that the full story about Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA, as well as the interface with PPRuNe, becomes known.

You may use this thread to continue the debate and the flow of information about these issues. The following guidelines however, MUST be adhered to when making a post.

1. Please make sure that posts stick only to the issues detailed below.
2. Do not engage in immature rants or point scoring. Certainly, do not lower yourself to imitating the behaviour of anyone that disagrees with you or is from the opposite camp.
3. Post in a constructive, calm, and considered manner. There is no need for partisan, colourful, and abusive language to make your point. Let your reasoned arguments make your point for you, not your emotion.
4. Please keep your posts to factual information. For example, it would be appropriate to discuss letters which staff have received which might be construed as bullying or harassment, the perceived erosion of terms and conditions, the tactics and methods being used by Ryanair or indeed BALPA/IALPA, differing contracts for different pilot groups, and planned fleet changes. This list is not exhaustive, but indicates things that are probably solid knowledge to those involved and are worthy of a reasoned debate and exchange of information and views.
5. Do not make personal accusations, particularly involving the private lives of any of the players. See point 3 for tips on how to make your argument.
6. If engaging in discussion about an airline's safety record, then please ensure that it involves only known and published incidents. Speculation or interpolation is not only possibly painting an untrue picture, it can also be damaging to the airline and its reputation. Most of important of all, it can be distressing to the crews, who will always be striving to do their jobs in the safest manner possible. Remember that the first person to arrive at the scene of an air accident will always be the pilots! Self-preservation makes a safe operation a very high priority for anyone flying.

Whilst PPRuNe is, after all, only a "collection of anonymous scribbles on a toilet wall," and thus in all probability worthless and a waste of time (according to the CEO of a Low Cost Irish airline), it is interesting that people in this industry do occasionally see it as a threat and will take steps to try and stifle debate where possible. By sticking to the guidance given above, PPRuNe hopes that we will not provide anyone with a legal reason to prevent the issues being discussed. Please bear this in mind and note that any post not complying with our advice will be subject to immediate removal without recourse to an explanation. Anything we think or feel may put PPRuNe under legal threat, we reserve the right to remove at our sole behest.

PPRuNe appreciates your co-operation, as well as your literary contributions, to help make this industry a strong and healthy one no matter what the hardships that are placed upon it and those who work in it. Ryanair management will no doubt agree with the right of their workers to free association, which we are facilitating with the caveats previously mentioned.

On a final note, and I haven't seen this published anywhere else yet, it has been rumoured that Ryanair have finalised a deal with a US company to take all their -200 series B737's starting with immediate effect. The last aircraft to leave the fleet are supposed to be the Dublin based aircraft and it is expected that they will be gone by May 2005. How this information will affect those long standing pilots based in Dublin is anyone's guess but with the alleged threat of no conversions to the -800 unless they ditch the idea of unionisation, may well put extra pressure on them.

Hold the Line!
 

I would like to pay tribute to Danny and his team for their efforts. It cannot be pleasant to have been on the receiving end of this. However simple such matters may appear to some of us, the reality is that this kind of action is enough to give any wise person pause for careful thought. That, of course, is its intention – to censor and frighten, and in so doing to demonstrate to the faint-hearted the nature of power.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that what has happened is typical of the kind of organisational behaviour described and anticipated in the – now missing – thread (which had around 118,000 hits when it disappeared).

The seriousness of the issues which face everybody was decisively underlined by these developments.

Regrettably this will not be the last such action. What has happened demonstrates two things conclusively; firstly, the seriousness of the challenge now facing ALL pilots and, secondly, the risks that are involved for a particular group of pilots. For that group, namely the Ryanair pilots, there are risks associated with both action AND inaction. They are all going to have to decide what they want to do.

However, has it crossed anyone’s mind yet that this little event may well be a gift? A gift in that it demonstrates for slow learners the very behaviour that causes so many problems for Ryanair staff, and a gift in that it clarifies for everyone the stakes and importance of the decisions and actions to be taken by Ryanair pilots in the weeks to come. It also tells us that somebody is running scared of the evident rebellion.

Expect more threats, but ...

Never was a challenge so clear.

Courage and steadfastness.

Join and deny.

Hold the Line!




As a contribution to the factual side of this matter, here is the well known quote from a Ryanair memo issued in Stansted this summer:

This outlines the official Ryanair position, which has been repeated on many occasions by different company representatives. However ... can anyone provide information, etc. that suggests a very different orientation by Ryanair. (For example, the memo to Dublin pilots?).

If you stand up to a bully now he is unlikely to threaten you in the future.

If you give in now then he knows what to do with you next time.

As one who voted with his feet may I comment BALP/IALPA in helping everybody in RYR. It was a great company to work for and a great start in the Jet market for me pity that it was not a good company to stay with in the long term . :{

It is a pity that Danny has to go through all this hassle.

Thanks Danny the fact that RYR sees Pprune as a threat is a great compliment to the power of Pprune! :ok:

Just want to say good luck to all Ryanair pilots seeking help under the ALPA. I´ve learned the hard way what might happen when you choose to work without any union protection.

The later 3-4 years I am supporting my union guys because no one else will ever, ever be interested in supporting me.

Again, good luck - I will be supporting you guys wherever and whenever I got the opportunity.

Sincerely.

Well Done Danny!
 

Danny, and ofcourse the towers at PPRune,

Youre recent action in re-instating a forum in which to discuss issues at RYR will be doubtlessly seen as welcome relief amongst RYR staff.

Surely with the threat of censorship, more people will find it in themselves to post without fear. I refer to ATSE's statement of Ryanair's official position...So we should therefore not be worried about whom we join or whom we speak to.

Everyone, please follow Danny's guidelines...two can play at their game.


Regarding the Dublin pilots with the unconfirmed rumours about the removal of the 200 fleet, it would seem plausable that MOL could be planning to retrench most of the more senior pilots whose vote this coming October seems obvious, and replace them with new pilots who would feel detached from this decision, therefore voting against recognition or not voting at all.

Using the 200 to 800 conversion as an excuse would in this case be an excellent means of doing the above said.


Again, this is my own personal speculation, and is not based on any facts or rumours. But it seems somewhat clear if you put one and one together.

Perhaps the more appropriate form of action for the pilot body to take is to join BALPA or IALPA now.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an automatic vote which is passed with immediate effect once over 75% of the pilot body become associated?

Clarification on this query would be greatly appreciated, as would any comment on the above stated theory.

Removing the -200's from the fleet with immediate effect could also be a wind up. I wouldn't put anything past the MOL.

It is time to restart this thread. the old one was far too long

Thank you unnamed ceo of unnamed Irish airline

I am amazed by the lack of new post

KEEP THE FAITH

rumours from up top
 

Theres another thread, "Ryanair, more free publicity", where Sergeblanco has recently posted an interesting new rumour - again rumour alone and with anything on this forum who knows their origins...

Anyone who knows dub will tell you that the A pier which fr use is only capable of holding 5 800's at one time(stands 8,9,10,13 and either 19 or 20). If its true will this mean a big cutback on dub flights

I missed the beginnings of this fight but a couple of points that bear out for ALL union fights.

Whether or not you like Ryan Air, it is the duty of all pilots to support THEIR pilots, and its the duty of all crews to support their crews.. If you feel that they are a cancer on the industry, operate to fast or whatever other gripes you may have about them, the ONLY way the anything can be changed anything is via a strong union.

If you feel that Ryanair may be hurting your airline, supporting the PILOTS of Ryanair will help to level the playing field. (Upward pressure in one groups compensation always has a similar effect across the industry, just as downward compensation pressures have a like effect across the industry, just witness the current race to the bottom amongs the US majors in pay)

So no matter what Anyone thinks, the pilots and crews and employees of RYANAIR need to be supported and assisted in doing anything that can improve their terms.

If you aren'[t supporting the pilots of Ryanair then you either don't know which side your bread is really buttered on, or you aint an airline employee (you could of course be management, but generally those are a worthless lot anyway).

If there is union busting activity going on at RYanair, it needs to be trumpted far and wide, loud and clear and any pressure available needs to be brought to bear. If you happen to be pumping fuel on a Ryan air jet, Relax, step out for a fag, take your time. Pump that gas a little slower. Cleaning the plane? Make sure its very clean, infact you better go over it twice. Are you a contract ramp rat marshalling the plane in, Make sure the ramp is clear. Infact, hold that jet a sec, you better check for FOD... You can never be too safe.

Cheers
Wino

quote:
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"We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining BALPA, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organization he/she so chooses."
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But if they dare even consider it they can forget about any chance of promotion or base transfers!

What does European law on Employment or on Human Rights have to say about this? It cannot possibly be legal.

Danny,

1. Good luck.

2. Practically the first rule of bullying is, take your victim somewhere private to do the bullying. Don't do it in front of everyone. The bully who discovers that everyone is in fact watching is likely to desist.

I can only surmise from your post that some legal bullying of pprune is underway, from a quarter which I'm sure we can all guess at.

With point 2. above in mind, I humbly suggest and submit that any and all correspondance relating to this matter should be posted publically to this thread immediately.

Like vampires, bullys tend to shrivel when exposed to glaring light.

Nil Carborundum.

R1

Chickenscanfly:

Under UK employment law, Union recognition is possible when 50% plus one, of that group of workers join the Union .

The 75% figure may relate to the percentage of workers the Union would like to see as members before the recognition process is moved forward.

Southwest worked well with Union involvment. It can work if both parties take a mature approach to the "partnership".

Simple!

Drop the "idea" of I/BALPA untill June 2005 if the above is true, it's not that far away.

The article in the Travel section of the Sunday Times was not a glowing indicment of FR and proves that not all publicity is good and how far the majors have fought back. For about £1 extra you could fly to Milan on BA with 23kg of baggage from an airport which is much easier to get to to an airport much closer and get fed and watered on the way.

As opossed to flying from a remote airport which cost alot more to get to for most of the cathcment are of London to an airport 35kms away meaning an even more expensive journey into town plus around £15 for two sandwiches and a drink for a couple on holiday.

Years ago i remember seeing a programme on the B777 with Mullally talking to some of the workers in the canteen. He was chating about United airlines buying the 777 and the CEO being interested in the Price of the aircraft and not the Cost. He is not interested in how much it cost Boeing but only in what price he will pay.

More and more passengers are weighing up the total expenditure for a low cost flight and certainly in my experience it costs more to go low cost. When the SLF start adding up the extras maybe they might start thinking that "Ummm yes nice cheap flight but i've had to pay more than the cost of the flight for excess baggage or such like". The down side to this is that at some stage people are going to go back to the majors and the LCC boys will suffer and consequently so will jobs.

I have the greatest respect for the FR pilots because you work in a pressure cooker that most could not and though i hate unions i firmly believe you should join one as i have because this industry is up ****e creek without a paddle and we need some protection from predetary management who only believe in share price and therefore their share options.

Is it time for directors to be paid a wage based upon the profit of the company rather than what the city believes the company is worth and share the profits along with the workers.

That bloody nose that a certain CEO has taken may turn into a 10 second count but they cant see that even the best pugilists know to stay down when beat or at least throw the towel in and be big enough to admit defeat.

Stand your ground lads but continue with the dignity that so far you have displayed as opposed to others in some quarters.

Good luck

Well, that's why we have unions so why do you hate them...?? :confused:

IALPA/BALPA
 

Looks like they've reached the Rubicon at FR.

Good luck, you and your families have my full support.

To those who feel they are damned if they do, might I suggest you are doomed if you don't. You have no choice with that man.

Wonder if MOL will enjoy this:

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/

Supposed to open for business tomorrow.

R1

Some more details on that web site from the BBC here. Seems whatever anti Union actions Ryanair is trying it is having the opposite effect to what they hoped.

Dear All,

I was employed by Ryanair in the 1980’s when SIPTU tried a similar method to get staff to join the union They placed flyers in staff files encouraging them to join the union as this would be a solution to all their problems. This generated a large amount of discussion amongst the staff however it was widely believed that this tactic was more to protect the working conditions of staff in the national airline than a concern over the working conditions in Ryanair. Now as an outside observer I wonder if similar tactics are behind the current campaign. Are trade organisations more concerned with upholding working practices in other airlines than their concern about an individual airline? Is the industry really going to benefit from this concerted campaign?

On this forum there appears to be a belief that the SLF do not know the full impact of choosing an LCC when they book their flight. This is a dangerous misconception. When I book a flight I look at all the options as do most of the people I know. Price, destination, baggage allowance, in-flight service, safety all comes in to play then my decision is made. All this is done from the comfort of my home through the Internet.

The staff in Ryanair and all airlines will make their decision based on personal circumstances not perceived working conditions and comments made by people who have never worked in their company. Many of my previous colleagues have gone on to have very successful careers both within Ryanair and more in other companies.

If this is a global fight to protect the conditions of all airline personnel then declare this as the objective. Do not treat your customers with contempt and believe that they do not make an informed choice when booking a flight. There may come a time when conditions imposed by an airline are unattractive that SLF will not use them. So far I do not believe that this watershed has been reached although it may be coming close.

Good luck to all, safe flying and my we the SLF of this world continue to have the ability to choose the carrier, type of service and destination that has opened up the world of travel.