Recruitment woes at BA.
 

No surprise I suppose but there has been a lack of qualified pilots rushing to join BA! It also appears that A320 rated applicants are not doing well in the BAC111 sim check (6 recent failures from BM).

Anyway, its still worth coming to BA if:

- you want to earn less than the cabin crew
- you want to wait 15+ years for a command
- you want a crap pension
- you want to work every weekend for the next 5 years
- you want to be despised by all other employees (including your own pilot management)

On a more positive note, BALPA is trying to do something about the pension.

I’ve just received a letter from the Lord Protector telling me that recruitment has been going very well.

So it’s true then.

http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.u...rb/roohorn.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

How can 6 current BM A320 pilots fail the sim, does that tell us something about BM training.No wounder there struggling to recruit pilots.

I reckon most blokes on the -400 would fail the B1-11 Sim if asked to do it again now!

i flew that sim for my check with NOW, you have to keep your mincies peeled 'cause it can get out of shape very quickly, the seats are awful as well. Having said that i thought it was brilliant sounds like a submarine at crush depth.

easy has had exactley the same problem getting Airbus guys (including some VERY experienced ones) through the check on the 737-300.

Fly-by-wire is just so fundementaly different from a conventional aircraft that

1) You can hardly blame the guys for losing their basic skills when they haven't had to use them for years

2) It's ridiculous recruiting Airbus pilots to fly Airbus aircraft on the basis of whether they can fly a geriatric Bac 1-11 (put 'em in a Tiger Moth-That's what I say!!)

Best way to assess an Airbus pilot? In an Airbus sim!!!

Had to read this topic twice.

Where is the benefit of examining Airbus Pilots in a BAC1-11 Sim or any other sim not of an airbus orientation?

Its like sitting a pure maths paper when you studied mechanics. They are similar but different...

Suppose its down to cost then....but surely BA can afford a few scairbus slots!
eagerbeaver check your PM's

I went back on a basic jet after a year flying a Airbus and struggled for the first hour just trying to get my scan going again, let alone the fact that a trip to the gym should be a prerequisite to get the bicepts in shape again:D

The Airbus is a great aircraft but fundementally very diferent from generic jets, so a bit odd if BA want Airbus pilots that they check them in a 1-11 sim:hmm:

Why an earth don't BA use an old Lightning Sim or perhaps there might be a DC6 one lying around somewhere.

They could fail even more applicants then.

I presume their trainers/assessors are from Marks and Spencers, after all, one management job must be the same as another!

Can't see the point in advertising for rated people and then sticking them in a 1-11 sim. Surely the idea is to assess their skills on the type which they are bringing to BA for free. :confused:

I am sure that there's more to the sim check than to just see if you can pole BAs cheapest sim... more likely they're also assessing you're potential for assimulation into the collective...

Stickle bricks next...resistance is futile, welcome to the Bores.

In the past, the 1-11 sim was used to give everyone a level playing field during their assessments. However, that was based upon the fact that no specific type rating was required and the successful applicant would be given a full type rating on his/her new type.

It does seem a bit of a waste of time though if we want A320 rated people who have been flying the jet for x years already. All they need, after the interviews, should be a couple of sim rides to get used to different SOPs. :rolleyes:

If anyone followeing this strand has access to a book called "The One-Eleven Story published by Air Britain they will find an enthralling chapter in it called "Flying the BAC One -Eleven" written by a Cpatain Douglas Brown of British Airways. A couple of quotes from it will explain the difficulty that any pilot of a later generation will have in using the 1-11 simulator:
1. "Many converting new Captains more used to Pratt and Whitney press and go techniques spent some time mastering the art of starting twin Roll-Royce Speys, an action requiring some 23 separate switch selections."

2.ATC are more used to dealing with a later generation of aircrfat capable of finding any given spot on the globewith a little button-pushing to the flight management system. On the 1-11 this is transformed into a flurry of maps, a guess at the wind and a rough DR (dead reckoning) heading which strangely enough usually managed yto get us there."

Sim check
 

Can anyone in the know post the simulator check profile?

Just incase I am called - though I doubt it.

Ahh...good old Dougie...mind you he's still a good bloke to fly with (on his one trip a month)

Just out of interest - who's still got a 1-11 sim. I would have thought that they would have all been scrapped years ago.:confused:

This might be of use - Trident Sim - wherein it's very good value for money and worth it even if only just to say that you've experienced it, but in any event very good ( imho ) for brushing up on basic stick & rudder, scanning, trimming, patern 'A' & patern 'B' exercises, etc.

Good old St Thetic in DUB was still going a few years ago at Aer Lingus. Spent many an airport standby flying it around.

Not sure if it is still going. I was told they are not using it nor selling slots any more !

Good fun but !

Apparently BA have been inundated with applications. I can only assume that the recruitment staff have a very small capacity bucket if they can be inundated by 165 applications.

Mind you, I fly the 320 for BA now and I don't think I could pass a check ride in a 1-11 without lots of practice.

Whilst BA may be seeking to recruit pilots with A320 series on their licence, it is far from the ONLY type BA fly.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to see what the candidate's 'basic' flying skills are like, on the off chance they may wish to try their hand on another type, in the dim and distant future?

On the bright side, anyone flying a 146, RJ100, or similar, probably wouldn't have any trouble flying a 1-11 sim!

If you catch my drift!

Incidentally, I do seem to recall that an element of 'improvement' during the session was taken into account.

Well, just to add my two pence worth.... those excellent "managers" at Britannia also put qualified 757/767/737 drivers through a sim check. In a HS125???? What's that about?!?

I reckon the key to 'ye olde BA1-11 sim' is to not get wound up about it. It looks intimidating when you come from a bus but it really is a test of basic skills..a bit like a jet powered F27! (perish the thought). The 737-200 sim is much less forgiving.

Hi Wheelbarrow

Perhaps a reason why the company uses the 125 rather than valuable time on the 75/76 is because sim slots aren't that abundant. The last bunch of Trainees had to go to Brunei in order to do and complete all their sim work because of a lack of capacity on the 75/76 sims.
Also the 125 is configured to 75 speeds and power settings, unlike the BAC 1-11.

LGW, MAN,LTN,LHR sims are currently used by Britannia for routine checks which reinforce my opinion on how tight the situation is.

I agree though, If you hire type rated guys, you should try your best to check them on a relevant type.

Cheers

Never mind the "****e" flying skills of all airbus pilots and their inability to pole a 1-11 around the tracks.
( sadly include myself as one whose skills are degraded; due to the rules which apply to airbus SOP's ,3hr sim slots not 4hr and a multitude of other factors)

The real confusing thing here is :
Balpa say only a few applications and out of 130 places to fill (this year) - there have been just a handful of suitable guys so far. The company ( well Dear old Lloyd) indicates that they are inundated with applications).

I can see that the "offering/package" is piss poor. What type rated pilot would apply to sit in the RHS for 16 years for the sort of rewards BA are offering? However I would love to know - who is telling porkies? BALPA or BA?

I guess it won't be easy to tell - and we now have the added complication, of all recruitment being suspended, whilst there is a fight over the type of pension offered.

By the way: if BA use the BAC 1-11 sim to check an Airbus pilot's skills prior to recruiting him or her for the Airbus, does anyone know what Easyjet use? - A Tupolev sim perhaps?

No, this is a serious question.

To answer your question (don't laugh) until very recently eJ were using a Caravelle sim.

Perhaps every one turning up for interviews these days should bring along their helmets, goggles and Gosport tubes just in case...

The Caravelle went 3 or more years ago, I think the sim check is now carried out on a 737-300.

Easyjet use a 737 sim or a 320 sim but usually the 73. The caravelle was a ctc sim used to assess cadets..probably based on the principal that if you can fly that you can fly anything:\

Are they using the B111 or the super 111 sim?

I've got the operating notes for both sims ( that is how to operate the sim / a/c not notes on the selection proc . ) going to the highest bidder or to anyone who will give me a ride in a Hawk .

kfw,

Can't do the Hawk but can supply beer for notes. May come in useful at some point. My flat mate agrees too.

sB

Can vouch (ouch) for the EZY story. Couldn't fly their 737 sim, I freely admit. Airbuses for 7 years, plenty of steam driven ac before that. But no good for EZY who were recruiting me for their 319s, wanted me to fly a -300??!?

I'm not so sure it really matters what sim a company put you in for assessment. Perhaps many put you in an 'unfamiliar' type just see how you cope? They don't expect you to be able to handle it as you would an a/c you have a rating on, but perhaps they are looking at basic ability and your 'learning curve'. Do you fly the same profile three times and look just as bad on the last go as you did on the first? Can you assess your own performance correctly and demonstrate an ability to respond to training input? What's your CRM like? What excess capacity do you have when hand flying?

All these things can be assessed in any type and maybe an assessor gets a clearer picture of them all when you are under just a little more pressure due to never having flown the thing before. Possibly, but I suspect it comes down to cost and availability.

PP

PP,

You are spot on and posted just as I was writing my missive. I was told BA do a computer scored handling exercise, if that is the case it probably explains their problems (If that isn't true then the rest of what I have to say is probably bunk).

A computer based score was probably a good way of doing it when everyone flew jets made of angle iron which required a rapid scan to avoid spearing in. Now you take the AP out on a 330 and all that changes is the FMA until you go straight on at the next corner. Back in the 20s (only kidding) when the system was designed it probably met their requirements neatly, now perhaps they need to re-examine what skill base they are looking for.

Perhaps BA should still use the sim but look at the guys learning curve as it progresses. With a modern jet sim, that takes care of you even when something fails, it is much harder to make that judgement and if you failed a bunch of systems the candidates would cry foul.

EK used the 310 sim so that they got more data about how the guy flies. If he was 310 rated he was expected to fly to a higher standard than a 320 mate who hadn't trimmed a jet for years. (Didn't always work out that way). The key thing is that you can see how a guy operates out of his element and see how quickly he learns and adapts. That is probably a better pointer to how an average mate will cope with the training. Next I'll be advocating that we check out how he or she flies an NDB approach, with dip next to a thunderstorm, whilst getting the sextant out and tuning the DF.

Ghost

kfw

I'm pretty certain it is a Super 1-11 sim. It definitely was in the mid 90s.

Don't seem to recall it being particularly demanding then - May have changed! I remember most of the power settings being done by the guy in the RHS. No assymetric, so don't even THINK about touching those pedal things, just both hands on the yoke, and scan!

Attitudes and power settings were given in a table a short while before the check, and available on a clipboard during.

Somebody in recruitment gave me a pretty good piece of advice just beforehand, it went something like this:

You can't act unless you think. You can't think unless you relax, and you can't relax unless you TRIM!

Ergo: Trim, relax, think, act.

The sprag clutch on the very noisy trim wheel, is probably THE most important thing to understand on the whole detail. Have it explained fully!

Apologies if I am a little out of date. These memories are a few years old now!

PP
If I may, this is not BY's sim ride... I am not sure BA gives you three attempts in order to assess your learning curve. In one go, however well you do, that learning curve will remain a flat line.
What is the logic behind assessing candidates whom have proved for many years they can pass LPCs/OPCs on their rated type and yet to put them in a more than unfamiliar situation? After all, the day they suffer an uncontained engine failure on the Bus, what will matter the most? Their ability to handle an antiquated 1-11 or their experience on type (In the sim/emergency situations)?
I guess the issue here is more about selection rather than proficiency on type so in that case, a Seneca sim (cheap) could do the trick.

Practice Opportunity
 

If anyone is looking to hone their steam-flying skills, I think there is a Bac 1-11 sim down at Bournemouth.
I certainly found it to be excellent value for a sneak preview before my BA sim assessment. If I remember rightly, the going rate is about 250 quid an hour. Obviously it would make sense to team up with someone else so you could get 2 hours in the seat for that price.
Otherwise, there is a useful DC9-30 sim in High Wycombe which handles much the same.
Some may call it cheating but I firmly believe that a little practice is worth its weight in gold!

Good luck to you all and don't be put off by the gloom merchants in these columns.

LFW

LFW there is a very blurred edge between cheating and using ones initiative .

SickBoks u owe me gallons of beer already !

I always thought the words super and 111 were mutually exclusive events .

Hadn't flown for 2 years, got fed up with the Queens's desk job, so did a quick ATPL and applied. Found myself in the BAC 1-11 sim, aced it, got in - despite my protestations that I could have done a better sim detail had they tested me on a Harrier sim.

So here is the scenario, Airbus qualified, tested on Airbus sim, recruited. Few years later directed to a Boeing. Fail. Bollocks, whose idea was it to test on an airbus?

Sorry folks, I must not post after closing time!