BA reject pilot's pay proposal.
 

BA have rejected BALPA's very reasonable pay proposal of RPI for 2004. Its funny that nobody told the Director of Flight Ops or MS!

Nothing will stand in the way of our senior management reaching the target of a 10% operating margin - and getting their 50% salary bonus as a result.

This comes as no surprise, does it?

BA have no intention whatsoever of settling with the pilots, on the contrary. The Prince of Darkness sees his moment to destroy once and for all the ‘pilot force’ in BA. He considers us as no more than donkeys, and stupid ones at that. He also believes that he is the anointed one that will deliver flagged out planes flown by non-British pilots like cheap no-frills junks on some eastern sea.

I’m extremely concerned here, because BALPA is sleepwalking into oblivion. They have totally underestimated the lengths that this odious little man is prepared to go to to achieve his aim.

We can look forward to two possible outcomes this summer. A humiliation of professional pilots in BA with a scorched earth slaughter of terms and conditions, or a bitter and bloody industrial dispute with some of the most vicious and nasty tactics in the history of UK industrial relations. I’m not exaggerating, I was there last time.

Sadly, many of my colleagues couldn’t give a toss. They’re either already crystallised and fat dumb and happy, or they’re too sacred and don’t want to rock the boat, or they’re so young and having too much fun to get involved.

Either way I am very pessimistic about the ability of BALPA to overcome this innate lethargy amongst the workforce and make a stand. If they don’t, then the profession in the UK will never be the same again.
http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.u...rb/roohorn.gif
I’ll take on the competition anyday! It’s my management I can’t beat!

Roobarb,

If your mate Custard is still around, tell him to make his last stand and call in the Cavalry...your little big horn approaches.
;)

Roobarb,

I would expect the second of your outcomes. It will be less than pretty and at worst, if the (mis)management don't handle it properly, will be the end of BA as we know it.

I would suggest that if we, as a group, do nothing then we deserve everything which is inflicted upon us such as the future loss of NAPS, Bidline and other lesser T&Cs. Therefore we should stand up for ourselves. We have nothing to lose.

Dig your heels in and fight guys and gals
or you will end up in the same CRAP situation as Ryanair
with a flask of coffee in your nav bag
(IF you can gat it past jobsworth at the security
gate)

Pod doesn't realise the strength of feeling on the line. Nor the contempt that with which he is held. He has deliberately made it so that BALPA have no choice but to strike: all managers in the company to get 50% salary as a bonus when BA reach the magic 10%, whilst the pilots have been offered 1 weeks salary.

Eventually BA T&C's get reflected as the benchmark for all the negotiations for every UK company. If BALPA lose this one then UK aviation will enter a dark age for pilots. Every company will want to take on its flight crew. BALPA will be dead in the water. The guys have the strength and power to win this battle but do they have the will. It's time the greed of the large corporations was held to account.

Perhaps we should affiliate ourselves with the RMT?

Roobarb

With respect, did you ever believe that BALPA would ever be any different? I've been in this business a long time, as I know you have been too, and nothing ever changes.

IMHO, you'd be better keeping your 1% in your wallet, having a local agreement with your colleagues and getting on with your career.

Apart from BA, very few airlines want BALPA, they are just saddled with them and would be happy to get shot of them, but they canot beacuse of previous local agreements. BALPA want and need the money to survive, as a parasite on the back of English pilots.

When needed, they have a history of falling very short of their members expectations. Collectively they appear to support the BA pilots, but individually they rarely rise to the challenge as evidenced many times before. Ask any Dan Air pilot or more specifically talk to the widow of poor Glen Stewart!

As for those pilots that contribute their 1% salary and don't work for BA, that is surely a 'no brainer'!

Enough said

ummm, I think that's the idea Jack:hmm: :hmm:

Ask Virgin. Think the boys and girls got their 1% back a few times over don't you?? Surely a no brainer?

Pip Pip:}

When will it be acknowledged that the 'golden age' of flying is over and that airlines can only survive if operating costs are brought into line with what the punters actually pay?

5 years ago flying economy on a national carrier could be quite an expensive affair, but now the fares are getting lower and lower - and even BA claims to offer cheaper fares than Easyjet and Ryanair on certain routes!
What's the result for the company's staff? Blatantly obvious surely.............Lower fares WILL have to equate to lower crew operating costs and this is reflected in a general management attitude that is now proving unpopular with so many.
As stated, the 'golden age' is over as airline crews are now simply management targets whose costs need to be reduced as much as possible, who need to work their 'service staff' to the maximum and who need to pay as little as the airline can get away with!

I can just see one of the targets on BA's managements office walls....highlighted in red - "Pay them less, work them harder!"

Jerry
Being a poorly paid engineer who has to constantly work with high paid cabin crew and Pilots on 6 or 7 times what i get you would think i would be on your bandwagon,the reason i am not is BA could make its 10% operating margin they just need to ditch all the deadwood they have offered the 50% too to acheive it - BA is not a business regardless what they say but it has the potential to make lots and lots of money,RE and his minders just refuse to face the truth!

BALPA - thanks to the unstinting work of a relatively small number of people - did Virgin proud by mobilising the opinion of those who would normally not get involved. They made sure everyone knew of past injustices and anticipated future injustices and persuaded all pilots that, unless they fought, the future was pretty bleak. It worked. But it needed some very dedicated people on the CC, and some hard decisions from the troops on how far they were prepared to go.

The Virgin situation was an example of self-respect triumphing over self-interest. It can be replicated elsewhere....!

Jack the Lad wrote:

BALPA want and need the money to survive, as a parasite on the back of English pilots.

Yeh we in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don't have em :}

There was me thinking it was British

You ignorant tw*t.

Ah the Virgin myth. Taking it's place among the other myths such as 'we will get you out of jail' 'defend you from the beastly management' and 'get you better terms and conditions'. Sure Virgin will get a large pay rise if they get a corresponding increase in profit, no evidence of it yet though. No doubt the brave boys of the CC had Mr Branson quivering in fear to achieve this amazing jam tomorrow (well maybe) deal. The forces of the market will inevitably destroy the established cosy practices of sixties still evident at BA, the future is Orange.

Ah, Mr Carruthers, tongue firmly lodged up management's backside as usual. You must truly like the taste. An invidious and pitiful position to be in really, rejected by your once peers yet never accepted by those who have only ever worn suits. I've often wondered about your sort, haven't lost any sleep over it though.

You may well be correct in stating that the future is orange, but it only holds true if those on the front line are prepared to tollerate a second rate career with no quality of life. Even the stupid wise up sooner or later.......hopefully.

Carruthers

Your "Virgin myth" has been arriving in my pay packet since last summer.

No point letting the facts get in the way eh?

Ah, Carruthers :hmm: Talking bollox with aplomb. Well done.

Oh, by the way... my (Virgin) pay is around 12% more now than it was this time last year, and I'm about to get a nice little rise on top of that thanks to the profit we made in 2003-4.

Would you like to revise your post? :rolleyes:

Good on you Scottie, took the words right out of my mouth.... :ok:

As for:

That just plain daft!

If I could second Hot Wings sentiments....what do we have to lose? For years I have stomached earning less than Cabin Crew and Watersiders. Just as I come into earning the going rate for the job, it seems BA want to stuff us all again. Statements such as "the golden age of flying is over" miss the fact that BA is a goldmine if it is run properly. i.e Benchmarking across the company. Sorting out the massive absenteeism. The problem BA has is not the "grossly inflated " salaries that some peopl are on for the job, but the fact that some of them only turn up to work when they have nothing better to do. Sort these problems out and we can all turn this airline around without plonkers like P o D

hah, if only we had the unity of membership that a traditional union such as the RMT. Can you imagine the railway workers sitting back and letting their passengers be driven by trainee train drivers who had to pay more than the passengers to get to their destination?

If you think that is a joke, you are not going to believe that some airlines are actually letting their junior co-pilots pay for the privilege of their line training, never mind just the type rating. These co-pilots are a part of the operational crew of the aircraft and have decided that the only way to get any experience is to pay for it. And guess what? There are airlines out there that will gladly take their money and put them in the right hand seat. These airlines take the money from these trainees and have no qualms about the fact that the trainee is actually paying far more than the passengers down the back to reach their destination, both ways.

So, if you think Balpa are going to get any of us organised enough to do anything about a pay rise at BA, just have a look at the furore about some of the crew on some flights paying more than their passengers. The RMT would let the employers charge their newly recruited train drivers for the privilege of sitting in the drivers cab to gain experience. Yes, sure they would. :rolleyes:

Can I ask where the myth of a 50% pay bonus for all managers comes from? First i'd heard about it.

It's the kind of falsehood and chinese whispers that cause problems.

If we were to achieve a 10% operating Margin, the Management grades would get a bonus, of between 0 and 20%, based on thier individual performance for that year, the average would be about 10%, not 50%. If you sit around and do nothing, you get a very low performance score and get no bonus!

My dept. has over 50% fewer people than we had 2 years ago, with a workload 7% higher, and my pay has not gone up 57%, it's gone up 3%, with no performance bonuses for the past 3 years becasue of the poor financial results.

Your "secerative" pay deal of two years ago, beat my pay rise by a substantial amount so I wouldn't complain too much.

C&B

MY DEPT HAS OVER 76% FEWER THAN 2 YEARS AGO, I WORK AS HARD AS BEFORE WITH LONGER HOURS AND NO OVERTIME AND MY PAY HAS DROPPED 8%!:mad:

Not having a go but if BALPA fail then what hope is there for the rest of us?:(

Yawn.

How about just getting on with the job and being thankful you actuallly have one?

Because apathetic attitudes like that achieve nothing, and in future won't make the job worth doing.

Yawn yawn - get a better attitude.

Crash & burn,

Not a myth. The 50% applies to certain heads of departments. As far as the "secretive" pay deal goes, most of us broke even. Those who won (junior captains) are now on the correct going rate for the job based on the European market. So check your facts or wind your neck in.

Crash & Burn

It was actually an intranet article which said that managers had agreed to limit any future bonuses to 50% of their salary as a cost saving. This to apply to Rod and all senior grades below - just under 1000 people.

Chr*st,I'm glad I'm out of it !

Never looked back since I retired and certainly haven't missed the inane bickering that comes around every so often.... and we had the better days.

Be sure of one thing though.................

If BA pilots don't support each other and squash this, the whole of the industry will follow suit and a pilot's job won't be worth a candle.

The Management suits who persist in these forays into Aircrew salaries will never understand how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing.

Pie in the sky really !

Sleeve. ( ex-independent )

HF is correct in his post above.
You guys also need to read the letter by Cap't Wood in this months log - sums the situation up nicely.

"how their utilisation of crews can cause so much havoc with proper sleep, health, family relationships, social relationships and the like. Its not just the money, it's your work patterns and respect and understanding for your wellbeing. "



So, is it an informed (fully aware of the conditions of work/lifestyle etc), personal decision to do the job or were you physically forced?

And that sort of justification makes it alright does it Jerry Stinger? Tell that to the media when some overworked souls with their mind on other problems cock up resulting in a hull loss.

It might surprise you that most people plan their lives around what salary they expect to achieve and it affects quite a few when Ts & Cs are degraded. Did you notice interest rates rise recently? Have you considered mortgage repayments? Do you know how much it costs to live in the South East? Do you realise how punitive seniority systems are to those who move to other employers? Thought not.

Also, if there ever was a hull loss (heaven forbid), exactly how long would you expect BA to survive?

Lucifer - I am fully aware of the cost of living in the South East, but then again, I don't live beyond my means. You almost seem to imply that you should be paid more, not because of your skills, but because of your personal living expenses. Hhmmm..

I neither imply nor state it. I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance.

I also imply that your statement is of flawed logic.

Read Sleeve Wing's post and attempt to understand it before replying.

Quote

"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety"

Rest i can see although BA flight crew get more than most,pray tell me how pay affects FLIGHT SAFETY then?, If that were true engineers would be paid similar to yourself

XL5 That chip on your shoulder must be very heavy, who pray owes you any sort of career first or second rate? You are only worth what the market will stand and as you have doubtless observed the market isn't impressed.
Gonadz and Digitalis, so you have a productivity related pay rise, congratulations, your union though has been telling the rest of us that they have secured a 30% rise for you!!??

Just to lighten the mood....

A big corporation recently hired several cannibals.

"You are all part of our team now," said the HR director during the
welcoming briefing. "You get all the usual benefits and you can go to the cafeteria for something to eat, but please don't eat any of the other employees".

The cannibals promised they would not.

Four weeks later their boss remarked, "You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with you. However, one of our secretaries has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to her?"

The cannibals all shook their heads.

After the boss had left, the leader of the cannibals said to the others, "Which one of you idiots ate the secretary?"

A hand rose hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals shouted,

"You fool!!! For four weeks we've been eating Managers and no one noticed anything, but noooooo, you had to go and eat someone important!"

"I imply that factors such as pay and rest affect flight safety, which is of overriding importance."


So, the safety of your a/c can depend on how much you are paid. Your logic intrigues me (and obviously others).

????????????

Just back on the thread, JS, and aware of your totally anonymous sniping.
It may interest you to know that I have been in the business, both military and civilian, for over forty years.
I'm still in it, now passing on my experience ( for peanuts I might add ) to the young lads who have the same aspirations I had.
The reason I stayed in it was because was good at it and took a pride in what I was doing.
That's no reason to degrade my salary at every commercial opportunity.

Now tell us your success story.

Rgds, Sleeve.

:yuk:

Sleeve Wing

I dont want to degrade any of the BA pilots,what i would like to see somewhen though is an honest " We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike " rather than we are paid loads because we are top professionals.

I am not degrading it ( I hope ) but i have seen the training which then requires a extreme amount of good fortune to get a job,at the end of the day however an ATPL takes a year to obtain,a doctor takes 7 years to train and the qualifications are far harder.I stand open to correction but a NHS GP doesnt look forward to 24 years of incruments that effectively double their pay.

No but if takes a career path ending in Consultant or higher his/her salary dwarfs anything a pilot can earn.

It is a fallacy that because 'We get paid well because of the Union and the problems we can cause the company if we strike ". If that was true our engineers, who do deserve much higher pay, would be able to use the same tactic.

I admit we are a powerful negotiating group but at the the end of the day market forces are the most telling influence on pilot salaries.

I worked for a small scheduled carrier in the late '80s. BA started recruiting, people left the charter operators and people like myself left the turbo-prop operators. My salary went up 40% in 12 months in an effort to keep people from leaving! I still left and my company could not get or keep pilots, that was until the market changed and once again there became a surplus of pilots.

I work for BA and I get paid a good salary (for which we work a damn site harder than 10 years ago) but if anybody here thinks that what BA pay doesn't influence the rest of the industry then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

As has been discussed ad nauseum it is now questionable whether the move to BA is worth it for someone working for one of the other decent companies in the UK. The situation will be reached where if BA cannot recruit sufficient people then they will have to improve the package and the whole roundabout starts turning again.