bmi mass exodus
 

It would appear there is going to be a mass exodus of F.Os and even some Captains. Company is rudderless and seems to have less of a standing in the industry than it did years ago. No good nightstops, longer days, shrinking network, no command prospects.
I think the F.Os are realising that they cannot cling on to rumours any longer and have go elsewhere for better lifestyle and prospects.
Of 20 F.O's I questioned, over half admitted to having contacted virgin.

The management seem to think the mention of longhaul to the carribean will keep folks, oh how wrong they are - virgin already go there....

Also with D.O and R.M moving to Easy more F.Os are looking at that for an easy command.

Never seen morale this bad in 10 years I've been there.

Can the last one out please switch the lights out...........

Trouble is that the promised exodus has never happened. Until it does, nothing will change.

The shrinking network is certainly true. A friend uses the Jersey/Cardiff flight regularly for work. He tried to book his tickets for March and was told they would no longer be flying into Cardiff.

Hmmmm,

When you leave, don't let the door smack you on the backside on the way out...:{ :{ :{ :E

Heard it all before...to be followed by the guys left having accelerated advancement.

Some never learn...:E

Many moons ago there was a mass exodus off the Viscount fleet and a lot of very good people were lost, mainly to BA.

Two major problems:-

1. Flights were cancelled due lack of crew.

2. There wasn't enough Fridays and Saturdays for individual
leaving parties so we had to double up.

The main outstanding issues were resolved, a pay rise of 29 per cent was imposed and we recruited some more pilots.

MP;)

411a,

You seem to be suggesting that these people should stay somewhere they don't want to be any longer. You have to remember that it is not just about money or promotion.

The airline simply isnt the same as it used to be. so when you've tasted the honey the current Sh*t tastes that much worse.

Driving in and out of LHR every day, six days a week to do palma then hannover, when you do happen to be lucky enough to have min rest nightstop in manchester you are rewarded with five sectors.

I remember nightstopping in:

AMS,BRU,DUB,CPH,HAM,FRA,CDG,MAD,BCN,FCO,LIN,MUC,WAW,DUS,CGN

Now

AMS,BRU,DUB

I remember being told that as a pilot were considered to be employed at management level!!

Now

We have to go and see the head teacher if we are sick. And unless you are lucky enough to be a captain or a cleaner you have to wait outside in the rain until someone with a pass can let you in.

As for thanks -

We are told that there are definitely no discussions with virgin. We then find out that merger talks fell apart at the last minute.

No pay talks entertained.

No christmas card or even sentiment on a memo!!!

I found out about the toronto route from my sister who isn't in the industry, 2 weeks before the company told me.


411a, If you rented a house and it started falling down, would you renew the contract on the basis someone will have to fix it in the future??

The last place they should be looking is easyJet - they're the market leaders in unfulfilled promises, lies and rhetoric. The duty hours are worse, the disruption incredible and the politics laughable (once you're outside). It's only saving grace was a higher than average pay packet, but that appears to be becoming less pronounced, lots of new (if dirty) ac, and generally good trg.

And for us poor Hall monkeys, they're downsizing the canteen !!!
Have it on good authority that a rise is in the offing.....
Any guesses as to what they may offer?
Will it be enough for us to pay off Olive?...
;)

From what I remember it was about as small as possible anyway, but then they have downsized the crew meals already so I guess the canteen is next.

It is a shame really, the company really seemed to be going places about 3-4 years ago, the managment seem to have lost their nerve completely now and we seem to be going backwards. How much longer before we are just a domestic carrier again I wonder. Come on Sir Mike (and the rest of the board IMHO) it's time to sell up and move aside.

BA will be recruiting in the next few months. 4 321's to arrive in November and then one per month until ten delivered. These will need crews, especially with a type rating.

Plenty of night-stops and variation but they work hard as well!

The same is happening at Baby.

Morale rock bottom & company not listening. Rosters out late.

The really sad thing is it would cost nothing to make things right but.........!

And as for regional.....:{

Shafted -
Sounds just like BM alright! Back in 98 we BusinessAir employees found out we had been bought by BM 3 or 4 months after it had happened. I saw it all going down the ****ter at that point and broke out before they could take the p*ss any more. Get out boys before the lifeboats full.....

:{

Instead of moaning have you tried talking to the ones that matter. The pilot management started off at the same level as you so have they completely forgotten what it is like. Did they not moan about how things were?
You are some of the highest earners in the company, have allowances, etc. thrust at you at every turn and you still gripe. There are others who do their level best to ease problems for you guys and we are shown no appreciation at all not even a decent wage.
If you want things to change it has to start with someone, why not you.


moan over

Keyboard flier

Try comparing pilots with pilots. Its no good saying "you earn more than the cleaner". As for talking to the management, I cant see that working. Can you?

I don't normally get involved in these discussions but 'keyboard flyer' has finally persuaded me ..... your attitude typifies the problem:

- If pilots are highly-paid, it's because that's the going rate. The company (any company) is not a charity. If it's an issue for you, go out, spend 10's of thousands of your own money, live on bread and water for at least a year, sit a barrage of exams and then go and get a job as a pilot.

- The fact that pilots 'still moan' shows that it's everything but the pay that makes the difference to their lives: endless ******ing about by crewing (who are themselves working in unsatisfactory conditions), rosters late, reneging on agreements hard-won....the list goes on. Even overpaid pilots are entitled to a home life, old cock.

- Yes, those managers probably did whinge themselves, but the personal benefits that accrue from toeing the line once they are in senior positions, coupled with fear of what will happen if they don't turn all but the most principled (I haven't met one yet) into self-serving yes-men. The proof is all around you.

bmi 'management' has shown itself largely impervious to reasoned argument, so folk have only one vote left; their feet.


Good luck,all.


Rant ends.


:*

I was made redundant by bmi post 9/11. Up until that time I was very happy and looking forward to command. the terms and conditions were good and the salary slightly above average for an FO.

However the complete lack of information, the double talking and lack of coheseive, joined up thought regarding the business structure of the company was a disgrace. OK so it was a tough time but the true colours came out (thats if the true colours had been decided!).

Some very charming and professional people became managers with the good intention of making a difference and maintaining a happy and motivated workforce. Sadly the reality of being in an environment where the maltese breaststroke is king and a void of strategic information from SMB allied to cynical deal busting by AR has turned well meaning people into line toeing survivors.

No, I am not bitter but I do feel violated that bmi has made me cynical. I now work for another airline who communicate and act - how refreshing!

Keyboard Flyer

1. Try talking to management or anyone at Donington Hall before you say such things.

2. I studied and trained to become a pilot at my own expence and became a professional. Doctors, Lawyers, Civil Servants, etc get trained at University which we all pay for (Mostly) in taxation. Why shouldn't I earn more than a cleaner? I have an extreme amount of responsibility compared to them. I also get tested in my ability every 6 months, do Lawyers, Doctors, etc?

Please don't belittle my profession.

And as for Regional??
Last one out turn out the lights,Morale all time low,waste of time baby transfer agreement after years of carrot dangling,forced base moves looming and wet leased aircraft thats just for starters.

I am entitled to my opinion as is my right. I never compared anyone to a cleaner let alone belittle the profession, some professions are high earning but are they any more important than others. For example would anyone miss the binmen? not until the rubbish piles up then they would.

I have dealings with all levels of the company I work for and as with most companies there are ones who have the attitude of "look at me and take heed, I am management and am more important than you", or "I am a pilot and you are not."
I do feel that talking with management is a waste of time as the ones that would know and can do something sit in their air conned office and care little for the minnions.
I do deal with pilots and some are great, some are ok and some are full of their own importance, it is their attitude which gets my back up and it is mainly the one described as pilot management, senior pilots that look down on the rest. And yet when something goes wrong it is to others they turn to sort things out.

As I said at the start it is my opinion.

Has anybody, in the history of whinging, ever written 'Morale is at an all time high'?

Well, actually, I would quite like no nightstops. I was a bit miffed when I had to do three nights away after New Year for a total of 7 hours flying.

That's the rub, isn't it? Really preferences ought to work by now - and yet somehow they don't seem to make it from the computer onto the rosters at times .....

Incidentally, nightstops are expensive. If a company is to learn lessons from LoCo's, it needs to see how to avoid them where possible. Airlines don't run so that pilots can have fun - they run to make money. If you made hay while the sun shone in WAW and MUN - bully for you! - but as with any flying job, the nature changes over time. Don't think it is much better anywhere else - I'm sure you could collect a fair number of whinges from other airlines if you bothered to ask .....

young paul,

Points noted. How long have we been asking for some sort of bid line?? but no, they don't care if it makes our life better. I think you missed the jist of my original post, I am suggesting that the job has changed for those of us that liked to finish the day somewhere else and as a reult, lots of people are looking to leave. Very glad that no nightstopping is improving your lifestyle.

Also IMHO killing the nightstop has also killed the prospect of a return in our business class passengers (which is why we had them).

Enjoy your small LOCO carrier.

Mm, I suspect that the shorthaul business-class traveller is not going to return - there's been too much of a change in the industry. The number of people in front of the curtain isn't just a bmi phenomenon - and frankly, in economic terms, can you really justify the sort of price that people were paying to travel in club shorthaul in this day and age? £500+ return to Scotland from London?

Ironically, the top fare for the "frilly" airlines is probably competitive with that of the LoCo's now - which may be the way forward - when people realise that if they travel with a day's notice, they will probably be better off going with bmi or BA than with the LoCo's. I hear that the LoCo's have seen falling yield, with rising load factors for the frillies - I suspect that this is the effect of people looking again at frillies to get ticket prices.

I know that for people who like NS's, things aren't as nice. However, let's suggest some hypothetical figures for a route - these are made up, they aren't based on any documented numbers. Nightstop cost is £70 in hotel bill and allowances per person (note that these are not BA figures, by any means!). Six crew in hotel for lates; six crew in hotel for earlies. Probably additional costs associated with additional engineering and handling contract. You need an extra £420 income over expenditure on the first and last flights just to pay for the nightstop! You can see from this (I hope) why LoCo's regarded having aircraft away from base for the night as a "frill" - how many extra seats sold would that constitute for a LoCo? 10, maybe?

As shafted@work mentions, the business passenger has been killed off by getting rid of the nightstops. I'm sure £420 is a very small price to pay to get some of those passengers back. You wouldn't need to sell many more tickets to cover that cost. Plus, I'd bet my Granny that bmi don't spend anything like £70 on a hotel room. Certainly not the hotels I've ever had to stay in.

Keyboard Flier:
Yes, I have and (surprise, surprise) it got me nowhere. Talking to management gets you a bad name and a note in your training file to have your chops busted next time you go in the sim. That is the problem with bmi - you can't talk to anyone. I had a serious issue to raise recently & e-mailed several managers about it. Not one replied. Sadly, most (if not all) the pilot management are puppets on Bishop's string - they just do what they're told for the least amount of money. If they don't, he'll find someone else who will.

The line of communication is appaling in both directions. Before ARs attempt at a morale-booster a couple of weeks ago, I can't remember the last time we heard from ANY manager with an update of what's going on in the company, what the plans are, how we're doing, etc. That's half the problem in bmi - it's like working blindfolded. "Just keep working and we'll tell you when you can stop. In the meantime, you won't hear from us."

Computer rostering - another joke. At least AR has admitted wasting £5m on it. A good mate of mine works for one of the biggest IT companies around and, having spoken to him about the rostering system in bmi, (once he stopped laughing) I asked how much his company would charge to go to Donington, throw out all the computers they've got up there and implement a rostering system to the point that it's fully functional. He reckoned about £1m!

The lack of productivity is becoming ridiculous. I spoke to an Airbus F/O the other day who reckoned that he did so much sitting around in the crew room last week that, in between sectors, he could have taken the Paddington Express into town, seen a West End show, and returned to LHR in time to do his next flight. Every day.

There will be a mass exodus. As soon as Virgin get the nod from the EU for their Sydney route, that'll be it. I know of a lot of F/Os who have applied to them & they'll all get in. Several will go to Easy and when BA start recruiting again, well.......

It is such a shame because the people in bmi are fantastic and know how to have a really good time despite the company's best efforts to stop them. bmi could really stand out if the management wasn't based around penny-pinching, secret-keeping, back-stabbing and brown-nosing.

I wouldnt normally pass comment in a thread like this, especially on an airline i dont work for, but as a bog standard line captain working for one of the low cost boys I do think bmi has got an identity problem.

Its certainly not a British Airways and its definately not a LoCo and unfortunately ay the mo there doesnt seem a market for something in the middle. BMI Baby is obviously an attempt to tap into the latter but is that an indication the rest isnt working.

It reads to me that until your management decides what it wants the business to be, there eye is definately not where you guys want it to be ie everything in this thread.

Its just my opinion as an outsider looking in

could have seen a couple of shows myself this week. Pehaps we should make the effort to go and then send the programs to the hall with a letter of thanks!! was thinking of getting a part time job in the terminal myself!!

Remember the 1500 jobs to be lost from ground staff??? There is an advert in Skyport looking for more?!?!
Probably would loose about that many if we merged though.

how odd...

There will be no 'merger' with Virgin. All Virgin is interested in from BMI is your slots at Heathrow; Virgin is not even remotely interested in taking on a full-service shorthaul airline. Any talk of it being 'a good fit' is wishful thinking; as BA's experience has consistently shown, it's difficult to make money out of shorthaul but longhaul is a great deal easier (though not without its moments!). Virgin gets its connecting passengers quite successfully already, without owning the airlines they connect on.

The suggestions of the Virgin/BMI get-together being a merger of equals were smoke-and-mirrors from the BMI side. In reality, it would have been a takeover by Virgin with the sole aim of realising slots for longhaul expansion. The rest of the airline (baby excepted) would probably have been sacrificed at the altar of full-service shorthaul and left to die an agonisingly slow death.

All your problems notwithstanding, you're better off as you are. At least your future is in your own hands. I hope you manage to make it work.

You think so, scroggs ?

That statement raises the most interesting possibility for the future.............takeover, sellout, merger, whatever.

The stark fact is that bmi would'nt be anything more than the tin-pot tiddler it was twenty years ago without one Golden Egg ---- Heathrow slots.

Any predator lucky enough to achieve the kill will strip the tasty flesh of Heathrow slots from the carcass and leave the remainder to rot.

Forget nightstops, rostering, "mushroom" culture, appalling management, appalling man management.

Instead, ask if you should be getting out before you become just another dead part of a dismembered, rotting, discarded carcass.

Merger
 

Scroggs - you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. The guys (& girls) at bmi are being led a merry dance by the Chairman and his cohorts. After the problems BA have had with its short-haul, why on Earth would a long-haul carrier want to take on a short-haul carrier & all it's associated problems other than to strip it of its assets?

Any idea when the pool at VS is going to start being emptied? Can't wait!!! :}

Anthony, I can't make any predictions about what will happen to the company without Virgin! All I can say is that Virgin would not have been the saviour so many were hoping for - Virgin would have done exactly what you suggest: asset strip BMI.

I don't see anyone else lining up to take on BMI at the moment (though BMI Baby must be ripe for a sale), so I would hope that you have some time to try and sort the company out. Otherwise the future must be somewhat clouded, IMHO.

baby in black?
 

bmibaby bookings in January reached record levels with almost half a million people booking to travel on its services.
January sales on bmibaby.com and via the airline's call centre smashed all records when more seats were sold than any other month in the airline's two year history.
Bookings increased by a massive 25 per cent on January 2003 with the entire network performing better.
Over 90 per cent of bookings were made using the airline's website.

bmibaby announced its summer schedule from Teesside Airport, featuring over 40 flights a week to Alicante, Belfast (International), Jersey, Malaga, Nice, Palma and Prague. Ten per cent of the summer capacity was sold in a single weekend.

bmibaby announced the launch of a new service between Manchester and Knock on 28 March, taking the number of routes from Manchester to 12.

Why do you think that bmi pilots would have a problem with LHR slots being used for longhaul? Think for a minute: 5 crews needed per shorthaul aircraft; 10 crews needed per longhaul aircraft. Shorthaul aircraft uses about 10 slots per day; longhaul uses 2. So if bmi LHR supports 20 shorthaul aircraft (let's say 200 pilots), it could support 100 longhaul aircraft. That's about 2000 pilots. Yes, that's right - multiply the number of pilots required by 10!

Almost regardless of the seniority deal that is achieved, anybody in the combined airline will do incredibly well out of it. An "asset strip" would not be the nasty sort of thing you see in shorthaul takeovers - it would be fantastic! Most bmi pilots would love to see this happen - in the interim you get the best of both worlds (cos the 100 longhaul aircraft ain't going to happen overnight - or even in a decade, I would think!) - and people will be sufficiently senior to bid for what they want within a few years.

Of course the slots at LHR are the most valuable asset - of course they would be used as such in the event of a merger/takeover. However, you are stupid if you think that the pilots would lose out as a result. bmi gets unrestricted longhaul with its slots. Virgin gets control of 19% of LHR slots. The only thing that would lose out would be .... BA! - who would find themselves with a competitor who has the ability to take them on in any longhaul market they care to.

At BA Rod has said at board level that bmi/Virgin merger would be devastating.

It is possible to conclude how bad morale is: most people think that a merger/buyout is likely, but they still are looking to leave 'cause they just can't handle it anymore.

BMI pilots would have a problem with a Virgin takeover because there wouldn't be jobs for most of them! Virgin would not suddenly buy tens of longhaul aircraft to absorb the BMI crews while reducing the shorthaul fleet. There would be some who would be absorbed, but not many I fear.

I think the scenario would be far more like this: take as many LHR slots as Virgin needs to effect its near-term plans. Sell those slots that can't be useful in the longhaul picture. Sell most of BMI's physical assets. Retain some shorthaul aircraft, crews and slots to cover those routes which have a large percentage of Virgin transfer passengers and are profitable - if there are any that fit this description. Examine (and probably reject) the possibility of turning the rump of BMI into a low-cost operation, possible in concert with Virgin Express (BMI Baby is unlikely to be part of any merger/takeover and will be sold off in its own right). Anything remaining would be disposed of - aircraft, leases, slots (with a caveat that they must be returned if Virgin needs them) and, most significantly, PEOPLE. Virgin is not a charity; it's a very hard-nosed commercial operation. It only wants BMI for what it can use to make a profit - and your workforce would, for the most part, be disposable.

This is a 'worst case' scenario, but I think it's not too far from what was being considered. That's why I think you should be glad it didn't happen!

Nightstops
 

Came upon your thread by accident. I'm a controller. Thought the nightstop mentality went out with flight engineers and white gloves. Anyway it's been nice talking to you...should have a few extra slots to play with this summer. I control "big sky", and my sky is full of LoCos that don't nightstop. The modern punter just logs on to his/her computer and presses "cheapest".....and Baby plus nightstops just won't compete.

The Bishop was 63 recently, he has said that he doesn't want to run his airline businesses until he dies. I believe he will divest himself of them in bits, sooner rather than later, all he wants is the money to enjoy the fruits of his labours. The continuation of business is of little concern to him, I believe that it only affects him when it affects the selling price.

Cynical? yes. His viewpoint? unfortunately, probably.

if so many are leaving, and i feel for you if you're being treated less than well, is there any chance of a job?

Well, at the end of the day, somebody will be operating those slots. And bmi crews operate more of them for less money more effectively than most other operators at LHR. So would you kill a goose to get the golden eggs?

Why would Virgin sell slots when it might want them in the future for a HUGE longhaul operation, and they are (in broad terms) covering their costs at the moment? Makes more business sense to use them as and when - change would have to be gradual - you can't start 20 longhaul routes overnight. And even if you could, to rule out the possibility of starting 20 more next year would be crazy .....

I think the general feeling in bmi is that something has to change in a pretty big way for there to be a future for the airline so lets get on with it as soon as possible. People have lost faith in the management of the company and I would for rather take my chances with new owners rather than carry on as we are.