Just for a minute, let's assume the U.S. finally manages to p*ss off more airlines (and pax) than they are keeping happy. Pax who might normally being thinking about a trip to "the land of the free" :yuk: suddenly elect to go elsewhere. Seeing load factors plummet on their routes to the States, enough airlines have no choice but to suspend said routes due low loads.

Now imagine this happening on a LARGE scale, something we've never seen before, ever. Is anyone going to sit there and tell me this wouldn't have an adverse impact on the American economy? Of course it would, full stop.

Being from just north of the yank border, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see the rest of the world (in particular Europe) do whatever it would take to stick the bat so far up the U.S.'s backside that they'd sit up straight even while sleeping.

Until the rest of the globe finally figures out that the White House doesn't give a rat's ass about the rest of us, things are only gonna get worse. I've had it with yanks dictating what the rest of us can and cannot do. They are screwed the day everyone else decides the U.S. is no longer worth doing business with.

End of rant.

What is the impact of all this on UK airlines I wonder? in particular BA, the stumbling giant must surely now fall to it's knees. As an aside - whoever decided to depict a BA 747 plunging to the ground with an F16 trying to shoot it down in the Sunday Times should have their heads examined.

I am SLF, I have flown regularly and often throughout the period since 911. I can deal with increased security in an airport, even on the plane, but a combination of aircraft sitting on the ground for prolonged periods at both ends of their journey, delays, increased security and (my own perception) increased risk, this has all gone too far. My US trade partners stopped travelling to see me a long time ago.

If the US authorities can't trust the UK to load a plane without allowing some nut to board (or fly it) then why are we trusted to send our guys to their deaths in the Gulf? I have cancelled 4 scheduled trips to the US in the next 5 months, I have also changed my mind about a planned family vacation to the US. I despair that Osama & Co seem to have won and I'm sorry that UK industry suffers as a result, but there is only so much I and others like me will take before the inconveniences and risks outweigh the benefits. These sure are sad days for the airline industry, what a shame. Less time spent on the effects please, more effort on the cause.

Please don't boycott the U.S. I understand your frustration. Many Americans are frustrated also, and plan to deal with this in our 2004 elections. A boycott, in the end, ultimately hurts those individuals who appreciate and benefit from your business in the U.S. and who, in many cases, agree with you. (In a similar principled move, I recently bought French tires for my auto.)

I originally thought the congregation rule had something to do with keeping economy PAX from using the First Class lavatory. What do I think of it? Let the relevant security experts discuss the issue and reach consensus.

By the way, I boarded a flight at Reagan National in Washington yesterday. After pushing off, we had to park on the tarmac for about a half-hour due to Chicago weather delays. To my surprise, the pilot opened the cockpit door to visitors. Yes, just like the good old days. Parents with three-year olds, Japanese teenagers with their cameras, . . . it was great fun. I do not remember seeing pilots and passengers more happy on a flight.

I'm not going to boycott, I'm just not going to travel there, for me at least - the two are seperate issues.

I hope you are able to change some things at election time, I believe the USA is a great nation, with a great people. I just hate what seems to have happened to it. I tried to like GWB, I even tried to understand him and his 'administration', indeed on other threads I have attempted to defend them, however I believe it's become a lost cause. I hope and trust you have an open, honest and just election this time.

I'm not sure what to think about your comments Re:the flight from Reagan.

Looking past all the rhetoric of 'who's right, who's wrong', etc, I think that OPENFLY might be on to something here....

Quote,

"At the time of booking your ticket you are given a time when you will be allowed to go to the loo for a period of three minutes. The Sky Marshall escorts you there, waits and then checks that the loo has been flushed.

Unquote.

I like the 3-minute limitation bit. The upside is that the lines would move quicker.

Let's say, maximum 3 minutes, 3-5 minutes by pre-arrangement only, perhaps with escort. Anything over 5 minutes requires an extra premium on the ticket price. Between 3-5 minutes, the bog light turns caution amber, and at the 5 minute mark it turns red for 15 seconds before extinguishing and the door automatically opens.

That should solve the problem of people going in to take a bath, or whatever they do, for extended periods during the last hour of a lengthy flight when many others are waiting in the bog line.

Just a thought.

The terrorists are winning, because everyone is terrified. Osama is laughing all the way to his grave everytime some nutjob thinks that a colour closer to the shade of red gets posted. All because terrorists are supposedly running about, and everyone should put their lives on hold.

I understand there is a need for security, but more discreet and less 'inane' measures could probably be taken that are most likely more effective. It's like fighting viruses with more and more anti-biotics. Sooner or later, the viruses will adapt, and once you run out of anti-biotics, there's nothing much you can do, is there.

I just hope that, behind the scenes, the U.S. has something up its sleeve in regards to these issues. There are only so many flights you can cancel to thwart hijackers, before there will be no international airlines that fly into the U.S. anymore...

Even more nonsense while I was away flying.

America is interfering with foreign airlines, because they are requiring a certain type of behaviour both in a foreign country (ie the point of departure) and international waters (ie the Atlantic) where the US has no jurisdiction or, in fact, any legal power.

Secondly, as far as I know a British-registered aircraft is sovereign territory wherever it goes, and can only be entered with the permission of the captain or owner. Might be wrong on that, but I don't think so.

An official on the news today put it very nicely. He said something like "A security response has to be measured and appropriate. The current measures simply create an atmosphere of fear". That fear could easily result in yet more damage to the industry on both sides of the pond...

bizflyer, you write

< As an aside - whoever decided to depict a BA 747 plunging to the ground with an F16 trying to shoot it down in the Sunday Times should have their heads examined.>

I believe the cartoonist got it right in one. It is only a matter of time before one of the chase aircraft do a "Vincennes" and ignoring rules of engagement decides to "Splash the sucker."

If I have a rowdy rugger team or a riotous punk rock band or a group of guys over-celibrating Eid down the back of a 747 I want to handle it the way that my country of registration has established. I do not want some Colonel in NORAD misinterpreting any request for assistance by shooting me and 400 other people out of the sky, "Just in case."

And you know that they would. Look at some of the redneck attitudes in the above postings...

moosp

The cartoonist maybe did get it right in one, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'm sorry to say I think you are right. I assume your profile is accurate and that you are indeed expressing a real concern as the pilot of a passenger aircraft, this only goes to confirm my thinking in terms of my own future travel plans to the US and in general the way in which the US currently treats foreign airlines and their passengers. I'm slightly taken back by your nervousness in dealing with US authorities, lets face it, if you aren't confident that the commander of the aircraft is not going to arrange his own funeral by reporting a fracas on board or requesting help from the ground then what possible confidence can someone like me have when buying a ticket.

The current security situation and the way the airports and flights are policed WILL end in disaster, some form of error is highly likley when fighter escorts are common place and I'm afraid your reference to the US shoot down of a civilian airliner underlines it very well indeed.

As others have pointed out, there are many Countries that implement just as tight security in a less overt manner and thanks to a slightly less sensationalist approach in the local media are by default safer places to travel to and be in.

The red necks are entitled to their opinions, it's just a shame they express them, especially here.

Mor,

You either follow the rules, or you don't fly into the US. You can have different security over in Europe, and that is OK with us. You seem to have been using different types of security with your BA Saudi Arabian flights, but you don't argue about those. If you want to tap into the US market for the upcoming busy summer season, then you will comply. Each country can have their own rules, and that is the way it goes. If the UK wanted five armed gaurds on each inbound flight to London wearing Austin Powers outfits, then I guess we would have to do it too. Cheers!

Yet another pprune anti-american slagfest. Yawn.

Regarding the fingerprinting and photographing, it takes all of about 15 seconds. Both index fingers are scanned electronically (no messy ink).

Why is the US doing this? Simply because we've completely lost control of our borders. We have a huge problem with illegal immigration. This step is being taken to try to keep track of who is coming into the US and when they are leaving, and also to try to ensure that the people coming in are who they say the are.

Don't get me wrong, as the grandson of immigrants, I have nothing against immigrants. Legal ones, that is. Illegals, on the other hand...

More on the US-Visit program
 

What a load of s.hit. They have gone absolutely nuts.

Now all visa holders regardless of citizenship will be required to give fingerprints and have their photos taken upon entry to US of A, regardless of citizenship.

Now that means all non US flight crews. Such a splendid idea.

Citizens from visa waiver countries without a visa in their passports will not be required to participate.

If not all persons entering or leaving are required to participate it beats the purpose of the system. It is like asking some to have ID's to eneter airside and not requiring it from others. System will just not work. It will not stop illegal immigrants nor will it work against other unwanted elements, these will just circumvent the system and enter elsewhere.

Me thinks it is time other nations follow Brasilian example and extend the courtesy to US citizens and have their fingerprints and photos taken. Perhaps internal pressure will force current "Regime" to rethink their so called security procedures.

Wonderful country turning into a third world type banana republic just makes me sad.

JJ

This is going to get interesting when ARMED Saudi Air Marshals start arriving in New York..........

I'm also wondering how their national airline is going to keep people from using the Mosque at the back of the cabin.......

Mutt.

Congregating: Read CS-DNA's post. Absolutely right.

Fingerprints and photos: It would not have stopped 9/11, in fact I can see this making no improvement in overall security, depite what Tom Ridge claimed this morning on US TV (he said it was being instituted only to improve security). Imagine if the fingerprinting rules had been implemented by the EU and were applied to US citizens; can you picture the outrage? Yet many Americans see no problem with the issue, being convinced it will help to control illegal immigration (even though some in the US govt admit they have no resources to handle the huge amount of data) and are unconcerned with the rights and freedoms of the rest of the world. They feel isolated, and believe everything their leaders tell them. The more the rest of the world tries to point out where they are going wrong, the more stubborn they become. I hope that this does not lead to an implosion.

'Fingerprints and photos: It would not have stopped 9/11'.
Actually the existing system if implemented and co-ordinated would have either stopped 9/11 or severely disrupted it, as several of the hijackers were on watchlists.
As SLF I have absolutely no problem with having my finger prints and picture taken. It doesn't put me going off to the US one little bit.
I expect a lot of those Americans who work illegally in Brazil are wondering what they are going to do now though.
You know, I can't help thinking if those BA flights hadn't been grounded and if one had blown up over London we wouldn't be hearing a lot of the anti-US rhetoric. Or maybe we would - criticism of the lack of US intelligence and action.
A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't?

Maybe an ATC.FA would help things out...
Not my original text, got it off a mailling list:

"Flight Attendant, 47Alfa with you requesting clearance for toilette 4Bravo"
"47Alfa, Roger, eye contact, please advise estimate time to piss"
"FA, ahh... estimating 10 minutes, I think I can hold 5 minutes more, 47Alfa."
"Copy, please stand-bye"
"37Delta, please confirm vacate toilette 4Bravo."
"Affirm, vacating via-right aisle to seat as cleared"
"49Hotel, you are cleared to piss at 4Bravo, please expedite I have traffic almost overflowing"
"Roger, cleared for 4B, will do it swiftly, no solids foreseen, 49Hotel"
"47Alfa, you cleared to line-up right aisle, facing toilette 4Bravo, maintain visual with traffic passing heading row 37"
"Roger, line-up right aisle facing 4Bravo, I have traffic on sight, seems much relieved, 47Alfa"
"Mayday, mayday, mayday, this is 33Echo with solids turning into liquid, request immediate toilette"
"33Echo, got your mayday, cleared direct toilette 4Bravo, please advise passing row 45 break break 49Hotel, please expedite and confirm status break break 47Alfa, sorry I have to put you on hold, please turn right 1-8-0 degrees and walk to the front of the plane, when reaching the galley turn left and execute a left circuit between galley and wall, beware of traffc on hold 2 rows below"
"FA, 49Hotel has vacated the toilette 4Bravo"
"Roger, 49Hotel cleared for seat and thank you"
"33Echo you are cleared direct to toilette 4Bravo, if you require further assistance please contact regular FAs by ringing the toilette chime. Good luck, sir"
"Roger,... dir.. to....bravo, oh my god"
"33Echo, comm broken, any problem, sir? Please confirm status."
"Well, let's just say the **** already hit my props, and yes, I will need further assistance now, 33Echo" (with a final sigh)

Cheers

It is maybe symbolic that pax travelling to the US won't be allowed congregate near the lav because that is the ultimate destination of their freedoms, the lav.

These decisions are made by the same people that were responsible for the security if the US on 9/11/2001.

Since then they have amassed a huge data base of info on their own citizens and have put pressure on other governments to retain data on their respective citizens. They can now monitor the comings and goings of every person travelling to/from the US and challenge any person guilty of such terrorist activities as overstaying a student visa over ten years ago. ( This person was jailed overnight and deported despite being in the states legally many times since ).

They now want the unprecedented right to insist on armed guards on board foreign carriers and it is just a short step to insisting on their own guards doing the job or banning foreign carriers . They arrest prisoners/soldiers/military/combatants/greengrocers without trial and repeatedly interrogate without representation or intention to release the detainees.

The media tows the official line like some of the detested former enemies of the States ( Tas ) and the national psyche has never been as united ( World war's aside ) which is astonishing since the focus of this is a man living in a cave on dialysis that can't be found despite fingerprinting everyone under the sun.

They have annexed two countries, one on a personal whim of the leader.

Surely the sane US posters here can a least see a risk that this is running out of control. Where will it end. Security travelling state to state to match international travel? Armed guards at every little league game?

Plastic Bug wrote:

Indeed Mr. Blair appeasing Mr. Bush isn't working.

I'm begining to think that both Bin Laden and Bush have won. They are both the most powerful men on earth and if that sounds a like nobrainer for Bush understand that he is now far more powerful than any of his predecessors.

Fear is indeed a powerful tool.

Consider the mentality of the public servant/s in the USA at present. Is he/she trying to prevent another 9/11? obviously. Is he/she trying to ensure that nothing h/s could have done, acted upon or ignored leads to a repeat ? Of course.
Has he/she the real power and clout to implement an effective solution against an industry already concerned about cost ie total and complete isolation of the cockpit from the rest of the aircraft(Seprte entrance, toilet facilities ensuite to cockpit, self service catering for the cockpit crew, (With a third pilot on all flight decks as provision for medical emergencies)and no access to the flight deck from the cabin? No he has not.
Every cash truck in the world has the vunerable end timelocked en route! Until commercial aircraft are the same they will always be subject to hijack. If the would be terrorist knew there was no way he/she could access the cockpit in flight the use of aircraft as surrogate bombs would cease.

Faced with this reality expect more C.Y.A. rules & regulations until the penny finally drops. But do not blame the guys trying to do their jobs.Some of the rules might be inane or stupid or even unworkable but if they raise awareness to a point were a single repeat of any of the 9/11 incidents is avoided then they are worth all the grief.

Plastic Bug should have said:
'Appeasement doesn't work. Ask Bill Clinton.'

'The focus of this is a man living in a cave on dialysis '

If only it was that simple. It's a lot bigger than that. It has to do with failed economies, unemployment and populations expanding faster than the economies. The MENA region will see an explosion in the workforce in the next 10 years. It won't see an explosion in the job market. There's going to be an awfull lot of angry young men out there.... Look at KSA......
You're right. It is out of control. There's a lot more of this to come.