I'm sorry, but I must admit, El Grifo has summed up at least the public face of this. An airline (and its captains) should be free to set up the right security procedures to suit them. We fight pretty hard for PIC authority over here.

El Al passengers eat with steel knives, because El Al has confidence in its preflight screening procedures. Provide the intel, give all the warnings you want, but leave implementation to the carriers.

And I'm sorry but cancelling suspect flights before the pax have boarded is crazy. If you knew a bank was to be robbed, would you just close it that day? Why not set up an ambush?

Perhaps some great justification may one day be made known, but this is one redneck who is scratching his head over all this....

Okay, I'm a "one number" I only read mainly. But I will say I have seldom seen so much B***S**t.
Fact is with all this crazy stuff from G.W. not so many people will be travelling to The US

Bubba,

You are one of the most well-informed members of this site and I always pay attention to your posts.

But on this subject you might do well to reflect a bit on the cumulative impact this small diktat, as Danny calls it, is having on the rest of the world. Without which the United States would not survive.

That impact is totally negative. To some extent that may have been inevitable because the US has had to move from a totally open to, say, a "less open" society in the space of a few years. Whereas European countries have done so (assisted by Algeria, Ireland Libya etc) more subtly and over a longer period of time.

To give you only a tiny example of the impact, the country I live in, Brazil, has just retaliated by mug-shotting and fingerprinting all arriving Americans. A knee-jerk reaction, yes, but one that's supported, from what I can see, by well over half the population. It's pure, senseless retaliation, nothing else, and nobody knows what's going to be done with the mugshots and fingerprints. But it does go to show something of the sense of outrage people from this country - a traditional US ally as well as, yes, a traditional exporter of illegal immigrants - feel.

So, before you knee-jerk yourself by responding to the anti-Yank postings, take a minute to think. Please. When you do, you might well come to the conclusion that the way the present US govenment are conducting world policy is offensive to most of the country's friends and that there are a lot of more subtle ways to go about screening; what's happening now smells, if not of paranoia, inefficient intelligence and, finally, if not of that, electoral athletics.

Wino

It isn't difficult to set up an email account that is essentially untraceable- so no, I'm not deluding myself, I know exactly how secure my username is- as well as the others I use here.

You still haven't answered the question. You obviously aren't going to. Good luck with your devotion to the nonsense coming from your government- I'm afraid your justifications to date are both illogical and badly thought out. For example, why not define a law that pax may not remove their seatbelt unless authorised by a cabin crew member? You don't have to use the rule, do you? It can just sit in your quiver. Why not make a rule that pax can't get on the aircraft unless they sign a document promising not to kill anyone? That is about as intelligent as "not congregating around toilets".

Some rules are sensible, well thought out and more to the point, can be applied. This one satisfies none of those criteria. Now why not argue the issue on its merits?

Untraceable,

That's really funny,,, Lots of people paying money to the record companies from email accounts they thought were untraceable... Danny logs all IPs. As mine is static, I am so rediculously traceable...

Seatbelt law, Ummm On the UK side I think that is already on the books. When we went to crown court against one of my pax from when I was a JMC capt, one of the things he was charged with was disobeying an aircrew or something along those lines, which was constituted by ignoring the fasten seatbelt sign to break into the cockpit. (He was convicted of an "affray" and other crimes in a plea bargain in Nov. 2000).

So got it MOR, We disagree, you don't want to alert the flight attendants and do anything that might focus their attention on a problem and give them a recourse should that alert discover a problem. As I have seen this in action for over month now, I can think of much bigger things to get aggrieved over... Do I think it will win the war on terrorism? Nope, not by a long shot. Can it HURT? Nope. Might it help? Maybe in a narrow capacity, but as it can't hurt and might possibly help, I see no reason to fight it. Most of what we do is for statistical longshots... When was the last time a jet aircraft actually blew an engine at v1? Yet we do balanced field takeoffs.... Really we could get in and out of much shorter runways, what could happen?

Cheers
Wino

A loyal lemming to the end, eh.

Just been looking at BBC ONLINE. States that US is to photograph and fingerprint all people arriving at USA on visas and that latter this year it will be extended to include all people on Visa Waver as well!

The paranoia's growing.

Note Brazil is retaliating and treating all American likewise.:ok: :ouch:

Thought it was NOT on a Visa (presumeably already printed on photod for the visa...)

As to Brazil. I think it is a good thing. In this dangerous day and age the totally free movement of people is probably not a good thing and everyone should be printed and photographed at every border, and the technology is there to handle it in an expeditious and not too inconvienient manner... You can photo and print without really restricting movement, AND possibly catch some people who need catching...

Nah techman, just not worth the fight more than anything else. Like I said much bigger things to get angry about as far as security is concerned including the glacial pace of the ffdo program

Cheers
Wino

So, defending ourselves is "not on"?
 

Lest we forget, there used to be two really tall buildings in lower Manhattan.

It is the position of the United States to prevent that sort of event from happening again.

If some of the procedures or policies that the Government of the United States implements to protect the people of the United States bothers you, I say: Go jump in a lake.

Leave it to the citizens of the United States to decide the Constitutionality of these edicts. We will. In the mean time, if it is your desire to fly to the good old U.S.A., I would suggest you play by the new rules.

The bad guys are most certainly not and that is what has probably got all the "experts" in a lather. Does it really hurt you to tell pax not to congregate? Does it really hurt you if a Sky Marshall may be on board?

Appeasement doesn't work. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

A reminder folks: There's a group out there that wants to kill us and see our way of life in the dustbin. Quit bickering about the details and be proactive, or we will play right into their hands.

We must hang together or we will surely hang apart.

PB

Got to make one more post (see page-2) on this rediculous thread. Well put - Plastic Bug - , you write far better than I do.

My quals to post - almost 3 million air miles in silver tubes in the past 20 yrs on American Airlines. Documented by my Aadvantage statement!

America is NOT - repeat - NOT - "interferring with foreign airlines !!!!!! We are setting rules about how airlines will operate on American soil. This includes American airlines !!! Airlines are free to choose whether they wish to agree to follow these rules or not!! NO ONE IS FORCING FOREIGN AIRLINES TO DO ANYTHING !!!!!!!!

Why do all the "anti Yank" folks think that we (America) have absolutely no right to set laws of behavior here in the United States?? That is all this is about - nothing else !!!!!!!!

Here , you will drive in left-drive vehicals; on the right side of the road, and drinks driving can see your arrest. In the Uk, we Yanks will drive right-drive vehicals; on the left side of the road, and drinks driving may see us in goal (warm beer - God forbid :) ).

Whatever is the damn problem with THAT, I ask????

Or is it that non-Americans are the only people that can set the rules of behavior in the USA?? Smacks of colonialism - that.

Have a Good Day - y'all ....... :cool:

It is now time for the foreign airlines to "step up to the plate" and provide adequate security. Air marshals are a good first step, but obviously it would be better if the terrorist type people were stopped before boarding the plane. I can't believe there is such a protest by BALPA and others, when British Airways planes have been the ones that have mostly been cancelled. Can they not see that someone may want to use their planes because they know that their position is weak? Take a look at your passengers closely and provide some armed protection onboard if you want to fly to the States and make some big COIN.

......or, if BALPA wants to get all in a lather and have a hissy fit, don't comply with the new FAA/TSA requirements when flying to America, and have the US carriers lap up the gravy, by carrying all the pax.

Foreign aircarriers have really NO other choice.

Like it or not.:{

So our 'US' friends dont want us to congregate at the loo door. ....I have the obvious answer.
At the time of booking your ticket you are given a time when you will be allowed to go to the loo for a period of three minutes. The Sky Marshall escorts you there, waits and then checks that the loo has been flushed.
I am so surprised that the American government hasn't thought of this..its so simple!!!!!

For some reason this posting has popped up hours after posting the original. Not sure why. Didn't know whether deleting it would delete the original, so I have left it !! - - - - - -

Airbubba,

Whilst I accept that a lot of the postings here constitute nothing more than ugly rhetoric and contribute little to the debate, they are indictive of a creeping unease with the "big brother" attitude which is seeping slowly, but surely from your side of the pond.

The USA has been without a doubt, a great nation.

We are not witnessing its finest hour.

Hey AA SLF ...looks like we Brits have hit a raw nerve with you!

But, there also seems to be a language problem in your latest post. What do the words ''rediculous'', ''interferring'' and ''vehicals'' mean? Also the statement ''drinks driving may see us in goal'' does not make sense.

Very strange...........

We do have a choice which the US seems to forget ('bout time they remembered) the Russians as example are already fed up with the Visa situation and like Brasil have retaliated requiring similar of US citizens that they themselves impose on the Russians...and we'll wait 18 months to see how many European holidaymakers dont choose to take their family back to the USA in 2005 after grief in 2004.

Not that I believe it would come to it but if a country will be forced to stop running to the USA then clearly the retaliatary action will be bilateral and US carriers would be blocked vice versa...and this would no doubt also trigger a blocking of both parties carriers from each others airspace which as example wouldnt hurt the UK too much but would cause chaos if US carriers are stopped transiting UK airspace...so US carriers wont 'lap up the gravy' and the Chicago Convention would not be supportive of such action by the US (in actual fact it would probably be a contravention)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthyism.jpg
Daniel Fitzpatrick, St Louis Post-Dispatch (23rd February, 1947)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/roobarb/images/32/01.gif

Donkey Duke

Dont wanna be personal, but some statements are highly questionable

"It is now time for the foreign airlines to "step up to the plate" and provide adequate security."
It`s not the place to discuss that, but we`ve seen in the recent years, which country obviously has the least security...

"I can't believe there is such a protest by BALPA and others, when British Airways planes have been the ones that have mostly been cancelled."
I`m not british, but what we know about the cancellations from AF to LAX was, that it was en error. A US-called suspect was a 5-year-old child, which was found out later. So the amount of cancelled flight does not necessarily show the danger implied.

"Take a look at your passengers closely and provide some armed protection onboard if you want to fly to the States and make some big COIN."
You might be informed, that some airlines already use armed forces onboard. If guns in an aircraft is the right way has yet to be found out.

Seems like the States strike back in this forum...

After all, measures like this do not increase trust in this business. As the US is the biggest airline market, non-US airlines are dependant on flying into the US. The measures taken do not prevent terrorists from hijacking planes (why they do that is another topic...), and that should be our - us and non-us - highest concern.

Hope that 2004 will turn out to be a good year for aviation

Openfly: Seems to me too... really. And by the way: American english sometimes is really strange... (mine probably too, but I`m not english speaking...)

A correct statement!

It was like catching a bus...

I don't suppose the US economy will go into recession because I've cancelled a couple of work trips there. But, I'll miss seeing some good friends and the chance for some really good food.

As a couple of posters have said, if we don't like the US enforced rules, we don't have to go there - fine. I won't.

This isn't anti-Americanism, it's about personal comfort and convenience. As a gent of a certain age, I need to go to the lav fairly often (don't laugh - it may happen to you!). Rules that make me feel guilty for standing in a line by the loo door are more than I'm prepared to live with! Travelling to the US is becoming more and more of a pain and I don't want to take hassle just for the sake of it. I'll take my business elsewhere, where security is just as tight, but much less obnoxious.