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"GET A LIFE"
"think that alchohol was an essential component in sustaining human life"
Very boreing life without it.....perhaps ALL commercial pilots should become members of the Taliband, Muslim Fundamentalists etc. An international strike to enforce working hours that would allow for a reasonable social life might be the answer. Who are these failed PPL's and baggage handlers working as so called security anyway? |
The sad thing is that he's a real nice guy. I was shocked to see his picture in the Sunday Telegraph. Are they able to get away with this?
FEBA |
Just some thoughts after reading thru all this lot.
1. What ever happened to innocent before proven guilty? 2. Media sensationalsium yet again! 3. :mad: disgusting that once proven innocent sudenly the media forget all about it. 4. Dont blame the ground staff and start questioning their intelligence or how much they earn. What the hell has that got to do with it. If you suspect someone of drinking before flying then you have a duty of care to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its pax too! 5. The meaning of the word "drunk" is completely differant to the meaning of "above the legal limit". All in all I guess we just have to wait for the facts and for the the authority to make their case. Same as every other process of criminal law. BTW has anyone actually seen any documented proof that the Oslo crew member was under the limit. Has it been reported anywhere? If so I reckon letters/emails/faxes should be direct at the media to ask why the fact this man is now in the clear has not been reported in the press. Surely the inital stories have bought his character into question! |
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I do think there are a few ground staff in certain countries would only be too pleased to spill the beans on crew if they got the chance to,even though I dont drink below 10hrs I still worry about this to the extent that I dont enjoy a drink on a nightstop any more,resulting to the fact that no drinking is best and even more so for the next few months.
The reasoning of this is, when they bring in the testers in the UK you can be sure that just like the pionts system for motorists they will be out in force trying to catch out as many as possible. If they want to dictate our lifes in our periods free from duty i.e. with the limit being so low that its a risk for even one drink,then they are dictating our lifes,rest included, Compamies should bear the cost of this in flight pays and/or saleries and not the token hourly rates that are currently payed. Rgds K.I.L. |
I'm not making any comment on the current case in NY, however it may have some bearing on the previous case in Norway where the crew had a positive breath test and (according to previous posts on PPRUNE) some or all had neg blood tests.
If you do get breath tested, be it for whatever reason, dont have it done in the cockpit. The breath test machines are not shielded from electrical interferance. So there is a chance that radio transmissions be it from acars or wherever could give a false positive. My advice is insist on a private room off the aircraft. Bit of a ramble and before anyone asks no i dont have any proof of this other than anecdotal evidence from a police officer friend of mine who says his machine always goes straight to red if he transmitts on his personal radio while the suspect is doing the test. Daysleeper Bingle Jells all the way. |
Daysleeper,
Yes a Personal radio can have that effect, and I presume so could some of the wiggly amp thingies on a flight deck. However that breath test is only a screening test, certainly in the UK, and gives reasonable grounds to suspect that someone has a blood alchol limit above the prescribed limit. In the UK you would be arrested (which is not saying you are guilty) and taken to a Police Station. There you would take a further breath test on a calibrated machine which gives a print out admissable in court. That is then the evidence of having the blood alcohol concerntration above the prescribed limit. In other words even if something does interfere with the initial screening test it would not lead to an appearence before the magistrates for nothing. |
FEBA, I'm with you here, a "nice guy". But sadly in life stuff like this will always happen to the "nice guy". I also agree that it was sad to see the guy in a prison suit, is this the Americans out to show the world how they now police the air as well as everything else!!
What of the rest of the crew, it would be nice to think that the F/O would have stepped in to say something! How many crew are on a B744, over 20 in total and nobody thought to say something. Not saying it's right IF this was as reported, but it must have been able to be kept in-house. |
Step out of line and suffer the wrath of RB....noooooooo chance.
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Oh Come on Fella's
Been around the International Circuit for years, but a little closer to the ground than most.
With all the Media Photo's and Police Interviews on the International Media, surely the % of so called liquor would/should have been splattered all over the front pages. Why not then? I have a feeling there is much more to this sick story than is in the papers and news. Lets hope this guy is just sitting back, and sues to crap out of these jerks. |
Soory Moosp
You squeezed in before I could edit my previous blurd.
Remember the Poll by the Bulliten Magazine.....listing the most respected professions in order from the top? Airline Pilots #1 [Hope that included Helio Guys as well] Paramedics #2 Firemen #3 > > > Politicians #49 Drug Dealers #50 Wonder where the New Age Security Tossers fit in that? |
Law in Virginia is that by driving a motor vehicle there is an implied consent to be breathalized if required by state or local law enforcement authorities. Flinking that gets you arrested, but getting convicted requires a blood test and rules of evidence if you go to the mat with the prosecution and really choose to fight it.
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Moosp
You obviously don't like security guards? OK, who does? But that really isn't the point. If you drink before you drive/fly/drive a train or do anything else that requires concentration then you have NO ONE else to blame but yourself if you get caught. Presumably you would be quite happy for everyone to ignore a taxi driver who had been drinking and let him drive your family about? How would you feel if such a taxi driver had an accident after you smelt drink on him and you did nothing about it, and as a result someone else was killed or injured! Or perhaps you think that a pilot who drinks wouldn't have an accident? I am not prejudging this pilot, but I am sorry, some of you have to face a couple of simple facts here, one of which if he is found guilty it is totaly down to him and no one else. |
AS it has been reported that the BA captain accused of being "drunk" was later found to be clear, why did his resignation need to be "taken up" and, if it was already processed, surely BA could say "come back old chap!"
I cannot understand why he needed to resign (honourable man or not). Sadly nowadays more people appear to resign before they get the sack (especially "corrupt" police officers who manage to go on pension. FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT I am not suggesting that the Captain referred to is corrupt, but I cannot see why if he knew he had had no drinkies and that he would be exonerated, what resigning would achieve- (edits.. I see that elements of my query have already been answered). |
Moosp
Just looked at your profile.
Do you a swap, show me how to fly that tank to EGLL, and I'll show you how to get onto an Oil Plaform on a dark night after a Rig Radar Approach. MMMm, on second thoughts, I think its safer to be in London! |
i think something should be done pronto about this let's face it - confusion-
yes,yes,yes we all know the legal limit is a quarter of the drink driving limit etc,etc,etc - what the **** is that ? do i have a beer or two the night before a flight, at least if it was the old 8 hrs before report that was it, now we have this situation where it's a free for all to 'bag a pilot', maybe we should all go through security and accuse someone of not doing their jobs correctly- maybe been drinking ? or even just plain drunk ? and insist on a test. Don't mean to single out security but this just stinks, we are a self govening profesion- my peers sign my licence - my collegues on the flight deck check my performance - we make decisions every working day - we have always been trusted to do our job to the best of our ability and that includes not breaking the rules on drinking - the powers that be should have seen this situation coming as soon as a numerical limit was applied, am i not to have a beer all through the summer ? why was i supplied with a beef and ale pie as my hot meal the other day ?? - where do we stop ? And final rant - do the french still have a glass of wine with their crew food ?? |
bjcc
That is kind of my point. I'm suggesting that the problem may be that an initial positive (caused by electical interference.) may lead to arrest and a blood test under caution. I dont know how long a blood test takes to come back with the results of an alcohol test, but even if its 48 hours then thats long enough to have your flights cancelled, passengers incovenienced and your face plastered (sic) across the news of the screws. I would say I in no way condone any form of drinking and driving/train operating or flying. Nor do I have any knowlege of the specific circumstances surrounding these cases. luto If you were faced with even a nagging doubt as to the possible result of a blood test and the airline was saying if you resign you keep your pension if you fight this and create more bad publicity for the airline you get nothing, what would you do? |
Daysleeper,
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you wouldn't get a blood test. The point I was making was that there is a second breath test at a Police Station on a Calibrated machine (its the size of a kitchen unit) and that provides the evidence in the form of a print out of the amount of alchol in your blood (apparently its proportional to the amount in your breath hence the test is done on breath). There is no blood or unine test because they are not needed. The calibrated machine in the Police Station is tested to make sure there is nothing that will mess with it. So in the UK its not 48 hours, its less than 48 minutes. As I said I don't know about the US, I would assume that they are at the same level of development as us, and therefore they use the same sort of machine. Thats an assumption based on the fact that this pilot is appearing in court today. If there was no read out of his blood/alcohol level there really wouldn't be much point in him appearing in court at this stage. However I am willing to be shot down on the last point by someone who does know something about the US Judicial system. |
bjcc
fascinating, I always though there was a sort of blood/breath/urine pop quiz. I agree that in the UK a case would not make it to this stage on an initial test only and things do not look good. But it will all come out in the wash. |
Dear all,
Several points have struck me from the last 7 pages. 1) What is the problem with pilots becoming alcohol free during the working week or even better at all times? I am greatly concerned by the seeming need of many on here to have a drink during their downtime. The seeming inability to “relax” without an alcoholic beverage smacks of institutional alcoholism. 2) If pilots want an easy way to regain the respect of the public that they crave I have a simple way to achieve it. Make an announcement that all their pilots will be required to refrain from alcohol. Have the airlines and the unions appear on the same podium at the press conference. 3) Maybe the time for pilot self regulation has come to an end. The technology they are talking about introducing in cars that requires a breath test before the engine immobiliser is released would be easily applied to airliners. Fireflybob, If, as you say, you read no newspapers and refuse to catch TV or radio news programmes how do have any clue as to what is going on in the world? As good as it is Pprune is not a suitable substitute. Cheers BHR |
WHERE'S THE INDUSTRY'S VOICE?
Why, oh why, don't you highly intelligent, skilled people that command so much respect, admiration (and personally speaking, envy,) for the job you do, appreciate that, in the eyes of the media, you have allowed yourselves to become a sitting target for stories that boost circulation figures. One of your own - and I am referring to the BA Oslo incident in this case - gets hung out to fry and then dry, but nowhere, either pre- or post-judgement, is the alternative to the 'guilty, guilty, drunk, drunk' media hype put forward in a professionally presented and argued way. You're letting the media set the agenda - which will always be the sensationalist, and which will only get worse - and until BALPA or PPRuNe or whoever, gets real to the need to put together a media relations function that is prepared to put forward reasoned arguments in support of aviation issues, then you're simply giving the media an open, unopposed field which will always result in bloody defeat. If the media - particularly here in the UK - had their way, they'd destroy companies and industries in the interests of sensationaism, journalists' egos and media magnates' bank balances. For goodness sake, get together and work out a way of protecting your reputations as an industry rather than having to vent your spleens on forums such as this!
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bjcc
"But that really isn't the point" and "..... some of you have to face a couple of simple facts here, one of which if he is found guilty it is totally down to him and no one else." I don't think anyone's said the buck doesn't stop with a pilot if he's guilty. In most cases, that's the bottom line. Does that mean others aren't open to criticism? Does that mean people shouldn't be interested in other points as well as what you call "the point"? eg (In no particular order, and raised by various people): How did the police become involved? Why didn't the security man raise his concerns with the pilot or other member of the Flight Crew at the time? Or with the company? Who tipped off the Press? Isn't it disgraceful his name was given to the Press before he was even charged? (He might not have been, but the damage is done.) Isn't it disgusting that, regardless of whether he was charged, and regardless of whether he's guilty or innocent, the police (or someone else in authority) gave the Press a photograph taken for official purposes whilst he's in custody? Isn't it terrible that someone gave his home address to the Press? Isn't it outrageous that UK journos and photographers surrounded his home when he's (absurdly) locked up in jail in America? What do they hope to achieve? A photograph of his distressed family? To ask his family how they 'feel'? Isn't it outrageous that he's been pilloried in the press/media as a 'drunk' pilot? Isn't it hypocritical of the Press/media to make melodramatic comments about passengers' confidence being shaken when it's the media which is stirring things up? And for the media to go on about crashes and 400 people being put at risk etc etc when, even if he is proved to be guilty, we don't know whether he was way over the limit or fractionally? Come to think of it, isn't that what you were doing with your analogy with people being killed or injured in a taxi driven by a driver who'd been drinking? |
From my No1 son [a Copper, GMP]
The local police prosecute above 39mg/100. betweem 41-50mg you have the "option" to take a blood test [It's more accurate apparently] we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy |
WHERE'S THE INDUSTRY'S VOICE? Many professions with a lot less responsibility than flight crew are subject to random testing - what sort of message does this send out to Joe Public? Link |
BillHicksRules
"1) What is the problem with pilots becoming alcohol free during the working week or even better at all times? I am greatly concerned by the seeming need of many on here to have a drink during their downtime. The seeming inability to “relax” without an alcoholic beverage smacks of institutional alcoholism. 2) If pilots want an easy way to regain the respect of the public that they crave I have a simple way to achieve it. Make an announcement that all their pilots will be required to refrain from alcohol. Have the airlines and the unions appear on the same podium at the press conference. " fool ! |
JET 11
OK, BALPA are doing a c**p job on your behalf. Reinforces the point that someone should be speaking up collectively for the views of those at the sharp end (no pun intended). I earned my living from protecting corporate reputations, and can't quite believe what I read, see and hear about such a high profile and emotive (when things go wrong) industry as commercial aviation. Don't leave it all to RB's offer of free flights and his e-mail address. If journalists and media owners get it wrong, tell 'em and tell 'em again. But they'll only listen if you do it in a language they understand - and that's what you're not doing at the moment. Because silence isn't heard. And don't think, please, that I'm touting for business - golf has replaced PR. I'm just so frustrated at the lack of a corporate voice for your profession.
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Jet II
That's what the Independent says. Quote from Balpa web site (not included in the newspaper of course!) ‘BALPA’s policy is well known – zero tolerance of any misuse of alcohol or drugs. In fact we have urged the Government to do more. We are advocating a system used in the United States called ‘peer intervention’ so that any pilot who has any suspicion about a colleague’s behaviour can have that colleague entered into a programme which is managed by, and supported by, both the union and the company. ‘ |
bjcc
What exactly do you want people who smell alcohol on a pilots breath to do? Ignore it because they are flight deck crew? Hand me the Polo Mints! :ugh: JetII "Not excusing drinking before flying" So what are you doing? - either the guy was drinking and over the limit or he was not. Its not rocket science. Pass me the TicTacs. :ugh: |
MMM..Interesting points Flying lawyer.
Some of which are well made. My analogy with a Taxi driver who had been drinking was used to make the author of the comment think what he would do in similar circumstances, rather than to jump to the conculution the guard was wrong. It seems to me grossly unfair to slate a security guard for doing what in the UK should have been a Public duty ( If my recollection of Judges Rules is correct, albeit they have been replaced by PACE, 'Every Citizen has a Duty to Assist Police). Of course had he not done anything, and it later come to light he had not reported anything, I wonder what the reaction of everyone would have been? I agree with many of your other points regarding the way this has been treated, and especialy the non granting of bail. But then perhaps you and I are viewing that with regard to the UK system which sometimes goes to the other extreem, which is of course a different argument. Idonno... I may have missed your point, but it seems to me you are saying that your mythical person has been convicted on the evidence of the security guard and nothing else. I think you will find that there is a bit more required before anyone is sacked and definatly before any court would convict. By the way, tic tacs, polos or any other mints arn't very good at hiding the smell of drink! |
Idunno
You can tell that just by sense of smell? This is what we pay the cops for - if someone is over the limit, then it is for them, and them alone to take action. I assume that the guy was over the limit as he has been arrested and charged? Flaps One I note that the BALPA web-site does not talk about 'random testing' - only 'peer intervention'. |
If this really is BALPA's stated policy I am very surprised.
They need to get real and realise that it is in the interests of all concerned to embrace random testing. If it's good for the railway industry then why not aviation? |
In the Oslo incident it now appears he was not 'over' any limit!
Arrested and charged = Guilty! You assume too much perhaps! |
Ahh..Now you make sense Idunno....But the question remains,
What would you want the person smelling what they think is drink to do? Ignore it? Would you ignore it on the breath of a Taxi driver? As for the Arrested+Charged = Guilty .. No not at all, I would arrest someone because I had sufficent evidence to do so, in your example a positive breath test. The calibrated breath test would give sufficent evidence to charge someone and its the courts buiness if they convict, not mine. If my memory is correct the Oslo BA Pilot wasn't charged. |
BHR,
There are many problems with Aviation that are not being discussed here that are actually VERY relavent. The circadian rythm disruptions are BRUTAL. To try and force their bodies into the new rythm in short order one of the few "LEGAL" things available to a pilot on layover may be alchohol. The most brutal layovers are not the short 8-12 hour ones. by far the most brutal layovers are in the 24-32 hour range. This may sound odd to you, but what happens is you arrive at the hotel after having already been awake for 24 hours (16 hours of duty, plus travel time to work and travel time to the hotel is usually in this range.) hit the hotel and crash out for 8 to 10 hours. Sounds great. So you are 10 hours into you 24 hour layover and now wide awake. Its not possible to go back to sleep easily. The most likely result is you will be awake for 14 hours strait (feeling pretty good) right up till show time for your next 16 hour duty period leading to fatigue right as you show up to work for your next duty period, continuing on to truly crushing fatigue. So by the time you set the brakes back in your home base you have been up for 30 plus hours. NOW you get to drive home... Its a regulation problem as much as a money problem. A long over water flight cannot usually be followed up by a 10-12 hour layover which might actually be ideal for circadian rythm problems (and even if they were possible legally, commercial pressures as in what time the aircraft leaves might make it impossible)because of rest requirements that forbid flying x number of hours in x period of time. (rules that are sensible and VERY necesary for short haul, that are vicious and harmfull in this situation) In the golden days of aviation this was less of a problem because long haul frequencies were often only one or two flights per week. so the layover lengths would usually be well on the far side of 48 hours (enough time to acclimate to your next reporting period) because another aircraft wouldn't arrive at the station till several days later. Or, the other thing that might happen is the aircraft might simply park till the crew was rested, so a SHORT layover would result. The commericial pressures were also much less (not as much competition in the idustry). Now with high frequency flying and a strict eye on the bottom line combined with deteriorating employment contracts the pressure is on to make crews more "productive". What happens in a large number of 24-32 hour layovers. In desperation the crews will try anything to go to sleep. A beer or two or 3 might seam like the solution, but its a slippery slope frought with peril, but there is often no other alternative left to the crew member. So 12 hours before departure you try and have a drink to go to sleep... maybe it works, maybe it won't, maybe that 2nd one will do the trick... But Pilots are being ground up by the modern scheduling practices and this is just one of the symptoms. Cheers Wino |
Airbubba
You can believe what you like about Oslo however I repeat. Captain McAuliffe's blood test was negative. Not rumour not urban legend. Fact. This is still an ongoing open case as other crew members have to answer to other authorities so any more detail of why Willie resigned would be inappropriate and may prejudice any case. Both pilots have had and still have the support of BALPA to help them deal with whatever the future holds and they couldn't have a better rep from BA and Principal Negiator looking after them. |
"and have a drink to go to sleep"
What happened to Melanomin etc. |
fireflybob
If this really is BALPA's stated policy I am very surprised. There is no reference whatsoever to stopping anyone from taking a test. From the literature I can find, it seems the Independent made this one up to satisfy a headline. Very glad to hear the the BA guys are getting all the support they deserve from Balpa- that's what the fees are for. The same will apply, I'm sure, to our colleague from Virgin. |
Some aviation agencies have not approved melatonin.
Generally all medications even over the counter ones, when used for flying the guide line is not to be taken within DOUBLE the effective period. So if you want to use an 8 hour lasting cough suppressant, you can't do it less than 16 hours before flying. Just because something is over the counter does not mean you can take it and go fly a jet. Furthermore, the results on melatonin vary from person to person and doesn't seam to last even if it did work for you initially... (hope I didn't just destroy a placebo effect for you) Cheers Wino |
Captain McAuliffe's blood test was negative. Not rumour not urban legend. Fact. So why resign? It seems no-one can say just now. Wasn't there a first officer & cabin crew involved in the Oslo case also? What were their blood test results? Is it just barely concievable that it's a case of knowingly turning a blind eye to other crew members drinking? It's an old dilema, best answered (in the short term) by the old answer: 'call in sick NOW... (unstated: or else)'. R1 |
bjcc
I'm not sure which of my points you think wasn't well made. I can't pretend I'm too young to have been at the Bar when the 'Judges Rules' applied but, not having had reason to look at them for almost 20 years, I don't remember them in any detail. However, assuming your recollection is correct, a "Duty to Assist Police" doesn't mean there is a duty in law to report all suspected offences to the police. There may in certain circumstances be a moral or civic obligation to do so, but that's a different matter. Even if the pilot is guilty, that doesn't mean many others involved aren't deserving of criticism. I'm curious. Your profile says your occupation is 'air traffic' but you seem to have a 'police constable' approach. :confused: |
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