<<BTW, the 742 is a hard one to touch and hold level on finals in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else.>> :confused: :confused:

Never a good idea to line up departing traffic with an emergency on finals.

So with the Lear at say 120 kts at 2 nm you clear a 737 to line up and take off. The 737 has exactly 60 secs to do so.

Impossible.

Topman, you have been standing in the sun without a hat for too many years.

Could you not actually understand what I had written?

Cease to pontificate B. S!

Please can anyone provide more accurate information on this disastrous Nigerian situation.

alexb757 - You're quite right about security at Lagos, my experences include:
a/ arriving at the gate, one time, about 2 hours after the advertised departure time, due to a delay caused by aircraft serviceability, for an 11 hour flight. We found the entire load of passengers had boarded themselves, and were settled down aboard, with the kids running everywhere, waiting and shouting out to us that we should go now!
We had to offload the entire passenger cabin, do a really good security check, get the cabin reorganized, and reboard, which meant an extra delay on the delay!
b/ each and every bus trip to and from the airport to the hotel, about 20 minutes each way, had to be escorted by armed guards.They had loaded automatic weapons in each car, one in front and one behind, and would not stop for any traffic holdups.
Anytime there was a traffic blockage on the 'road' the front car would simply drive up between the lanes and bang on the side of the cars blocking the road, with the butts of the weapons - that usually got them moving out of the way! Not a pleasant way to travel to/from work.

I was there with AAI for several months, the best part was the layovers in NewYork, London and Dubai, otherwise I could not have lasted even that long.

Cheers:yuk:

And this is, how it looks like now :
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg

Hm, the line is ´IMG]http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg[/IMG´, don´t know why it shows an Jetphoto.net banner ? The Preview worked well yesterday. Sorry

Errr, looks like a 757 and some shameless advertising to me :E

Tony em, I want some of what you are smoking!

That is no 757, Volume more info please!:ok:

What the hell, it just changed to an advert for some photo data base!

That photodata base has no crash pics only various shots of the a/c in new livery at places like BRU & OST.

GB .... you beat me to posting that link by one (1) minute !!!! ... lol

what a sad end for an "Old lady of the Sky" ......

hobie .....

Lemsip! Its a bu@@er to roll and almost impossible to light.

I guessed that was an attempt to link to that photo on AirDisaster.com and saw it this morning. Both wings look attached to me, well, at least at the roots.

Edit; can't believe that word was censored

Nigerian airport botch-up costs SA cargo carrier millions

Aviation - By Roger Makings

Incompetence at a Nigerian airport will cost a South African cargo carrier millions of dollars in lost business over the peak Christmas season.

Pretoria-based Hydro Air Cargo's only Boeing 747 was wrecked last week at a Lagos Airport when it ran into a shallow trench on a runway that was being repaired.

Captain Vere Webb, Hydro Air's chief of flight operations, said this week that the Boeing had been cleared to land at Lagos's Murtala Muhammed Airport in the early hours of last Saturday morning.

The Hydro Air pilot twice told the air traffic controller that according to his notes the runway onto which he had been directed to land was under reconstruction. The controller denied this.


The runway appeared to be functioning normally. Its lights were on, navigation aids were working and there were no markings to indicate that it was unserviceable. However, shortly after touchdown the jumbo ran at high speed onto the unsurfaced section of runway, ripping out the left side
undercarriage and severely damaging a wing and two engines of the multimillion-dollar jet.


Reports said the air traffic controller ran away, but was arrested the next morning.

"That, of course, does not solve our problem," said Webb this week. "The jumbo was our only aircraft and we are in the middle of the peak season."

He said it was not clear if assessors would write off the 747 or deem it worth fixing. "Whichever way they go, it's going to take a couple of months, so we are trying frantically to source aircraft to meet our commitments to customers."

Hydro Air Cargo's chief executive, Frik Knoetze, said this week the accident was a severe blow to the company.
"We are looking to lease aircraft and crews that are going to cost far more than what it costs to run our own jumbo. "But, more importantly, we need to protect our markets. Other carriers will
be happy to take our business away from us."

Knoetze said Hydro, with a turnover of more than $30-million a year, flew almost a million kilograms of mainly perishables and dry goods to Europe from South Africa every month. Out of Europe it transported 1.1-million kilograms of freight to Nigeria, Spain and South Africa.

"We are operating in a highly competitive market, and in peak season aircraft and crews are not easy to come by. We are the only South African-based cargo carrier competing in Europe and you can bet the opposition are more than ready to move in on our markets. This will have a major effect on our business."

with "ATC and Crew" conversation recordings being available I presume financial responsibility can be quickly established, allowing a replacement aircraft to be sourced at no cost penalty to the company??? but just how easy would it be to get a replacement Aircraft? .......

With ref to departing taffic infront of emerg traffic Although it was probably done cause the RWY would have been blocked by the Lear and the ATC didn't want to hassle with taking the B737 on a taxi tour but still this is something I would not have done personally. ACFT on final with emerg don't want to cause more trouble to them

There was a picture in the Buisiness section of the SA Sunday Times Yesterday.

pic

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2003/12/07.../1-bt07air.jpg

As someone who works at a busy twin runway airfield somewhere to the west of London, I would like to point out that lining a 732 up with an aircraft at 2 miles on an engine out is quite definitely career suicide!! :rolleyes:

I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally. I refer you to the BMA Airbus and the BA 744 a few years ago if you want evidence of how tight 2 miles is!!

"I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally"

Am I the only one who regularly sees and indeed is granted permission to line up and expect immediate rolling departure with aircraft on 1 or 2 miles final ?? This is a very common practice folks.

topman do they do that on the moon, where you're from?

kano, abuja, PH, yola etc will make you wait if they've got a *turbine* aircraft on am 8 mile final, they're that sharp:E

lagos is different, they will only hand you over to tower when you are established on the glide and often you can't get a word in on the frequency because the tower freq is also the ground and the delivery freq, too. so you can get right down to 2 miles in IMC and only then manage to make contact with a tower controller who has just lined something up in front of you....this after doing the dance with all the other arriving and departing aircraft in and thru the hold at LAG.

and the most important thing then?

"report souls on board":suspect:

but its not normal procedure to knowingly line up something with something else at 1 mile... :ugh: 30 seconds out?

Saw the hectic line up a few weeks ago at MAN ... clearance given to a 74 to line up with a 73 on about 2 miles final with a previously landing turboprop still to vacate.

I was lucky to bet on the go-around (which was inevitable really)...

Topman, you are good value.

You have raised your head above the parapet again only to have it shot off.

Where is this place that you speak of:confused: The moon and beyond.... sounds interesting.

Thanks Dogma ! I aim to please. Where/what/who is "man" ? Manchester ??? Who knows. Anyway, the funny thing is I probably have 10 times the experience you have. Keep taking the tablets :ok:

Oh dear struck a nerve there!:ouch: :ugh:

Anyway... any one got the latest on the Hydro / Nigerian situation?

Just to clarify your position then Topman.

You are saying that the action by ATC Lagos in giving permission for an aircraft to line up, when a crippled aircraft was on short finals, was completely OK.
And therefore the subsequent go around on one engine that the Learjet was forced to execute, which resulted in a loss of control and the destruction of the aircraft, and the loss of all lives on board, was entirely normal and represented good industry practice.

Correct?

For the last time,

It is not ideal to line up any aircraft while another aircraft is on 2 mile finals, but the alternative in lagos was to have a 732 holding short of the runway and a potential obstacle to the learjet on finals. Remember folks, the learjet was on an emergancy approach and infact ended up losing control in the end. Thus it could so easily have slammed into the 732. Only chance prevented this. ATC cleared the 732 for take off to facilitate the learjet on finals. The learjet lost control according to this article, which further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ? Wake up :rolleyes:

Actually I've got a better solution.

Why didn't they just tell the Learjet to ****** off and crash someplace else?
Perhaps a local scrapyard could have used the bits.

Would've saved a lot of messing about, wouldn't it.

I cannot believe the total and utter crap posted by so-called topman999.

If you were completing a OEI approach in a twin jet ac at 600 ft on final, what possible excuse could you imagine for some dumb idiot moving onto the RW and blocking it - even if a highly dubious air trafficker cleared the movement.....

A late-notice go-around at a critical phase of an emergency is an extremely tricky manoeuvre. I'm not surprised that the Lear had an accident as a result.

Any pilot who thinks that lining up in front of an aeroplane carrying out an emergency approach is in any way acceptable simply doesn't deserve to hold a pilot'slicence of any sort.

Please NOTAM any flights in which you may be involved, topman999, so that the rest of the civilised world can arrange to be elsewhere at the time.

"for the last time"

Lets bl@@dy hope so!

When you have a concept (experience) of heavy metal operations give us a call.

999
have to agree with the rest mate, you are a twit!
you dont suppose that the LJ crash was the result of... GA power on 1 engine!! and the subsequent loss of control, due assymmetry??
Hold short is just that, hold short, an aircraft is not a factor there,
perhaps you can tell me just how many aircraft on engine out approaches, have missed the runway altogether, and wandered through the hold line??

"further proves that ATC was correct to clear the 732 away. Would you like to be told to hold short of the runway knowing that the aircraft approaching you is going to crash ?"

that is an unbelievable statement!!! and just how did you know it was going to crash?? oh yeah, cause you were going to try and make it by shoving off directly in front of it!!
I think I, along with everyone else who has read the complete crap you have written, do not for a minute believe you have ever been in control of any aircraft, let alone a transport cat a/c.
You do however, seem perfectly qualified to be a controller at Lagos!
I have flown into Lagos many many times, it is without a doubt the worst controlling I have ever seen, Hyrdo is just their latest victim.
so please do me a favor, 999, shut up!

In my 29 years in military ATC, any aircraft in emergency was given absolute priority. The rwy was 'sterilized' well before the emergency aircraft was on finals, and other traffic was told to b*gger off until everything was sorted. To line up an aircraft with an emergency at 2 miles beggers belief.

topman!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually folks, just to clarify this further, the Lear had his engine failure about 90NMS OUTBOUND from Lagos on DEPARTURE, so the controllers had probably (at least) 30mins from his turnback to prepare for an emergency landing.

Carry on as usual though, eh.

SNAFU.

Where's 411A when you need him. He would sort this mess out quick smart!

Anyhoo... Ref Hobies comment on a previous page where he refers to financial compensation.......no financial loss to airline.....!
I am sorry matey, but there are two Hope's of Hydro getting a cent from The Nigerian authority, and Bob aint here!
They dont pay for standard airline operations as has been the near or actual demise of several airlines to get sucked into working in Africa.
Even the big boys have been bitten, with carriers like BA and VA getting cash up front in US dollars for any "guaranteed business"!
Not wishing to be the harbinger etc, but I would have to say that that might be the last we see of Hydro for a while.

One last word. Just hope all the crew are well and good and at home! I know a few of them. For the most part total professionals ! I wish them all the best over this (if not so) Merry season.

Glad to hear that all aboard are safe at home now...

Wonder if Paul T. can wangle this one into an insurance claim as a "mugging"?

I have the dubious pleasure of operating into LOS very soon, and having never been there before I would be most grateful for a succinct summary of the pitfalls that await.

I get the general idea from postings in this thread, but any and all specifics will be gratefully received.

Make sure you arrive with LOTS of FUEL!

They have the charming habit of closing an airport without notice for a full hour around the time of a 'VIP' departure. This VIP could anything from el presidente down to some rural chief, or his wife.

Besides that the approach aids (such as they are) go off with regularity, as do the lights!

Be prepared for the worst...as Ernie Gann said...'Always have an out in your back pocket'.

Just back on a sector through Japan. Well, what can I say ! Differing opinions out there in aviation I guess. One can only devise their own conclusions on this. Convenient though how Maxalt changes the particulars of the situation after the debate.:rolleyes:

The name Walter Mitty springs to mind... This week I am an experienced controller - next week on a "sector" through Japan...

He ain't going to go away folks - ignore.

The persistance in sticking to a dodgy statement/opinion/judgement would seem to indicate the hide of a Rhino, the common sense of a four year old, and the testicals of a bull elephant, unfortunately this combination is generaly considered dangerous in a cockpit or a control tower.
Sorry 999 the opinion you have valiently stuck to does not seem to be the one chosen by the majority here. Perhaps you are in the Nigerian ATC, in which case be advised that it was not thought to be a wise decision and probably only succeeded in excacerbating an already dangerous situation. It piled extra pressure on an already loaded pilot, at a time when he least needed it, and may well have contributed to his death and that of those on board. In short a right pigs ear.

Or is 999 an industrious TROLL??? Positioning a bit outside "reasonableness", yet near enough as to not be instantly recognized as a troll.... T'would be an odd sense of humour since we're talking of life-or-death situations.

twat
 

topman, you are a :mad: wit. I have been reading your ignorant tripe here and had to reply. Any sane (real) pilot would know not to line up in front of an inbound OEI emergency, especially one at 2 miles and 600 feet. The subsequent asymetric go around no doubt contributed heavily, if not completely, to the accident.

The aircraft holding short posed no obstacle whatsoever to the Lear, thats why they paint those yellow lines, they're called Holdpoints, to keep holding aircraft safely clear of the runway enviroment. Look for them when next you park your 742 on flightsim on a sector thru Japan.

Can you also, being 10 times more experienced than any of us, please explain "non standard conditions"? And what the hell is meant by your statement " the 742 hard to touch and hold level in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else"..........:hmm:

Methinks you have overstepped your very limited aviation knowledge, so time to back off, people died because of an extremely poor decision on the part of ATC and you, obviously not a pilot, are trying to defend them with experience(?) gained on flightsim and by standing in the carpark at Manchester trying to guess the separation between arriving/departing flights, probably all done in a pilots uniform to boot.:rolleyes: :suspect:

Nosey

B747 crash at Lagos
 

From todays LLoyds List...

A Hydro Air B747 freighter was cleared for a night time landing at Lagos, on a runway that had been closed for resurfacing work.

At aircraft touchdown, the landing gear was ripped off after lodging in construction holes. The jet then collided with heavy equipment and machinery, only for one wing to torn off.

All the crew escaped unhurt but the plane, Hydro’s only B747, was a write-off.

<<only for one wing to torn off>>
It wasn't.
Port wing gear off, port inbd T/E flaps severely damaged, #1 eng didn't look too clever.