FTL, Discretion and JAR regulations
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FTL, Discretion and JAR regulations
Well, how to start?
JAR-OPS 1.020 Laws, Regulations and Procedures - Operator's Responsibilities states:-
(a) An operator must ensure that:
(2) All crew members are familiar with the laws, regulations and
procedures pertinent to the performance of their duties.
JAR-OPS 1.085 Crew responsibilities states:-
(d) A crew member shall not perform duties on an aeroplane:
(5) If he knows or suspects that he is suffering from fatigue or
feels unfit to the extent that the flight might be endangered.
I read this that if the company, working within the JAR-OPS regulations, has made the crews fully aware that they must not fly when fatigued.
My problem is that crew members are being told by the Ops Director that if they refuse to fly into discretion, sometimes by up to two hours, they will be suspended on the spot. Threats are also made from other quarters. Threats of this nature are a regular feature within this company.
Crew members are afraid to talk to CHIRPS as they feel that the complaints will get traced back to them, despite my reassurances.
Does the crew member fly and break the regulations or run the risk of ultimately being dismissed for refusing to break the regulations?
A VERY sorry state of affairs!!
BTM
JAR-OPS 1.020 Laws, Regulations and Procedures - Operator's Responsibilities states:-
(a) An operator must ensure that:
(2) All crew members are familiar with the laws, regulations and
procedures pertinent to the performance of their duties.
JAR-OPS 1.085 Crew responsibilities states:-
(d) A crew member shall not perform duties on an aeroplane:
(5) If he knows or suspects that he is suffering from fatigue or
feels unfit to the extent that the flight might be endangered.
I read this that if the company, working within the JAR-OPS regulations, has made the crews fully aware that they must not fly when fatigued.
My problem is that crew members are being told by the Ops Director that if they refuse to fly into discretion, sometimes by up to two hours, they will be suspended on the spot. Threats are also made from other quarters. Threats of this nature are a regular feature within this company.
Crew members are afraid to talk to CHIRPS as they feel that the complaints will get traced back to them, despite my reassurances.
Does the crew member fly and break the regulations or run the risk of ultimately being dismissed for refusing to break the regulations?
A VERY sorry state of affairs!!
BTM
All I could contribute is as someone who's submitted a CHIRP before, to reassure those who worry it's impartial and confidential that it is.
My incident wasn't in the same league - a light helicopter overspeed where I felt the circumstances warranted broader circulation, no fear of job loss, and so on - but my details on the top of the submission form were returned to me shortly after receipt.
CHIRP depends on maintaining absolute confidentiality - if your colleagues have any queries or concerns I recommend they talk to Peter Tait or his colleagues on 0800 214645.
My incident wasn't in the same league - a light helicopter overspeed where I felt the circumstances warranted broader circulation, no fear of job loss, and so on - but my details on the top of the submission form were returned to me shortly after receipt.
CHIRP depends on maintaining absolute confidentiality - if your colleagues have any queries or concerns I recommend they talk to Peter Tait or his colleagues on 0800 214645.
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The problem is that pressure can be brought to bear on organisations to reveal their sources. A classic example is the UK government putting severe pressure on the BBC to reveal their source. We now all know that it was Dr. David Kelly. So much for protecting sources!
Pressure has also been brought to bear on pprune to reveal the identity of posters. Despite reassurances we can not be sure if this was successful or not. It is the doubt that stops people, especially where powerful organisations like the government get involved.
Pressure has also been brought to bear on pprune to reveal the identity of posters. Despite reassurances we can not be sure if this was successful or not. It is the doubt that stops people, especially where powerful organisations like the government get involved.
Man of the Marsh
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I can assure everyone that comparing the BBC with CHIRP (or indeed PPRuNe) is like the proverbial chalk and cheese. CHIRP employs the very highest level of integrity in preserving the anonymity of those who submit reports. It is without doubt the most effective honest broker in the field of UK flight safety. There is absolutely no way it would divulge the identity of a report's author.
PPRuNe operates along similar lines of anonymity --- unless you happen to be a self-publicising, scum-bag paedophile, of course.
PPRuNe operates along similar lines of anonymity --- unless you happen to be a self-publicising, scum-bag paedophile, of course.
Uncle Pete
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DrSyn,
I have personal experience of CHIRPs and entirely agree with your comments.
Peter Tait is a man of the highest integrity.
The crew members involved are understandably reluctant to put pen to paper but until they take that step this issue looks set to rumble on until there are tears.
Please TRUST CHIRPs
MP
I have personal experience of CHIRPs and entirely agree with your comments.
Peter Tait is a man of the highest integrity.
The crew members involved are understandably reluctant to put pen to paper but until they take that step this issue looks set to rumble on until there are tears.
Please TRUST CHIRPs
MP
Uncle Pete
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GEENY,
We may all be in the JAA region but it's a bit like the EU, only as good as the will of the individual states to enforce the rules.
My experience of Italian aviation is resticted to operating into the usual sunshine spots on the coast. Incidentally it's the only country in Europe that I have asked to provide aircraft documentation and personal licences on a turnround to the local inspector.
The issue of entering into flight time discretion will rumble on for as long as it takes people, both on the ground and in the air, to appreciate that only one person can authorise a discretion, the Aircraft Commander.
Look up in your Operations Manual to see who has the authority.
MP
PS It's not the Ops Manager
We may all be in the JAA region but it's a bit like the EU, only as good as the will of the individual states to enforce the rules.
My experience of Italian aviation is resticted to operating into the usual sunshine spots on the coast. Incidentally it's the only country in Europe that I have asked to provide aircraft documentation and personal licences on a turnround to the local inspector.
The issue of entering into flight time discretion will rumble on for as long as it takes people, both on the ground and in the air, to appreciate that only one person can authorise a discretion, the Aircraft Commander.
Look up in your Operations Manual to see who has the authority.
MP
PS It's not the Ops Manager
Last edited by MaximumPete; 21st Aug 2003 at 17:01.
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BTM
I think you will find that Peter Tait will personally speak to the DFO in question and then follow it up with a letter. If that fails to work, then direct to SRG in confidence is the other route.
Do persuade the crew members to speak to Peter. The process certainly works well. I have seen it in action.
I think you will find that Peter Tait will personally speak to the DFO in question and then follow it up with a letter. If that fails to work, then direct to SRG in confidence is the other route.
Do persuade the crew members to speak to Peter. The process certainly works well. I have seen it in action.
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BTM -
Who is to judge when a crew member is fatigued? Ops staff or the crew member themselves?
The regulations are in no doubt.
I also suspect that you will find that it is not called Ops Director's discretion either, and it should be amply unambiguously covered in the Company's own operating manuals.
The only stance to be taken here is a robust one; try quoting the company's own regulations back at them.
Who is to judge when a crew member is fatigued? Ops staff or the crew member themselves?
The regulations are in no doubt.
I also suspect that you will find that it is not called Ops Director's discretion either, and it should be amply unambiguously covered in the Company's own operating manuals.
The only stance to be taken here is a robust one; try quoting the company's own regulations back at them.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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BTM
Try faxing the Ops Director with a note stating that you are fatigued but prepared to operate if instructed by him. I doubt if you will get a reply, or operate the flight.
BTW what airline is it?
Try faxing the Ops Director with a note stating that you are fatigued but prepared to operate if instructed by him. I doubt if you will get a reply, or operate the flight.
BTW what airline is it?
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Best not to say as long as the message gets through to the people concerned. Let's hope they can sleep at night with this on their conscience.
Suffice it to say it is a low-cost airline.
BTM
Suffice it to say it is a low-cost airline.
BTM
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Well I can imagine that this company is threatening this, but can they see it through?
Company sacks someone for refusing to fly whilst fatigued.
Pilot takes company to Industrial Tribunal for unfair dismissal. What is the company going to say?
Admittedly it might prefer just to pay you off, but if the papers got hold of the story then it wouldn't make for good publicity would it? An airline that sacks its pilots if they refuse to fly when fatigued would not be my airline of choice.
Company sacks someone for refusing to fly whilst fatigued.
Pilot takes company to Industrial Tribunal for unfair dismissal. What is the company going to say?
Admittedly it might prefer just to pay you off, but if the papers got hold of the story then it wouldn't make for good publicity would it? An airline that sacks its pilots if they refuse to fly when fatigued would not be my airline of choice.
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You are protected from graduates of the Mill Owner’s School of Management by the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. The industry is full of basket case managers who think they can flout the law with impunity. They will discover the truth to their cost.
If you are tired, you must not fly.
If you are tired, you must not fly.
For what it's worth, I've also filed a CHIRP report. The report in question actually got quite a lot of publicity, and caused some appropriate embarrassement for somebody called to account for dangerous practices. Despite that, I am absolutely certain that nobody has ever suggested that I was the reporter. It is the way ahead, it does work.
And if all-else fails, threaten Industrial Tribunal for unfair dismissal but be aware that you only have that route open if you have been employed for more than 12 months (used to be 24 but changing that was one of Tony Blair's few good ideas just after he got elected).
Of course, you should also be in a position to prove that you have personally acted in a way that ensures that you have every reasonable expectation of not being too tired to fly also.
G
And if all-else fails, threaten Industrial Tribunal for unfair dismissal but be aware that you only have that route open if you have been employed for more than 12 months (used to be 24 but changing that was one of Tony Blair's few good ideas just after he got elected).
Of course, you should also be in a position to prove that you have personally acted in a way that ensures that you have every reasonable expectation of not being too tired to fly also.
G
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The management of this low cost airline are indulging in bullying tactics. As with all bullies they are relying on you being weak minded. In the company I work for pressure was put on a Captain (and amazingly the Purser, through Cabin Crew Manager) to go into discretion whilst down route. This particular Captain was made of sterner stuff. They refused and nightstopped. BALPA were awaiting the crew on their return and it was stated in no un-certain terms that the CAA would be informed if this happened again. I understand letters of apology were duly written.
These managers should know they cannot get away with behaving in this manner, but it might be up to the Captain to remind them.
Remember that you are GOING OUT OF HOURS, first and foremost. You then decide if "Discretion" is appropriate.
These managers should know they cannot get away with behaving in this manner, but it might be up to the Captain to remind them.
Remember that you are GOING OUT OF HOURS, first and foremost. You then decide if "Discretion" is appropriate.
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You are absolutely right! You must not fly if you are tired.
However, in most cases where the Captain has to decide whether a discretion is appropriate or not, fatigue is rarely a factor.
He would be first and foremost concerned whether the flight is still operating within FTL limits (Rightly so).
As you can well imagine a CPT decision not to use discretion, without any plausible reason, is not going to go well with management (Rightly so).
However, in most cases where the Captain has to decide whether a discretion is appropriate or not, fatigue is rarely a factor.
He would be first and foremost concerned whether the flight is still operating within FTL limits (Rightly so).
As you can well imagine a CPT decision not to use discretion, without any plausible reason, is not going to go well with management (Rightly so).
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I. I submitted a generalised statement to CHIRP with regard to bullying and discretion. I suggested alterations to the regulations. It was published in the CHIRP circular.
The bullying continued. The regulations are unchanged. More than a decade has passed.
2. It would seem, from reading through this thread and thinking of my own experiences, that there is a vast range in the degree of bullying being used from one company to another. There is evidently a similarly vast difference in the BALPA support one can expect.
A certain airline with which I'm, shall we say, familiar, dealt with a certain Capt. who refused to violate the "early start" rule in a way which has been very well published in PPRuNe. He was never offered his job back, despite the enquiry recommendation. He received enough compensation to cover a small number of years of lost salary and was left to rot (potentially).
Still feeling brave ?
The bullying continued. The regulations are unchanged. More than a decade has passed.
2. It would seem, from reading through this thread and thinking of my own experiences, that there is a vast range in the degree of bullying being used from one company to another. There is evidently a similarly vast difference in the BALPA support one can expect.
A certain airline with which I'm, shall we say, familiar, dealt with a certain Capt. who refused to violate the "early start" rule in a way which has been very well published in PPRuNe. He was never offered his job back, despite the enquiry recommendation. He received enough compensation to cover a small number of years of lost salary and was left to rot (potentially).
Still feeling brave ?
Uncle Pete
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flydonkey
The level of fatigue of the ENTIRE crew is very much a factor in the safe operation of a flight extending into a discretionary period. CAP371 limitations were not designed with discretionary extensions on a regular basis in mind.
What other plausible reasons would there be for deciding to extend one's duty day?
This sounds very much like mandatory or compulsory overtime depending which way you look at it.
MP
fatigue is rarely a factor
What other plausible reasons would there be for deciding to extend one's duty day?
This sounds very much like mandatory or compulsory overtime depending which way you look at it.
MP
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AC
It's great to see that you wrote to CHIRPS.
The bully-boy tactics that are now being used in my organisation, not too far removed from yourselves, are quite frankly appalling.
How long will it be before a scapegoat is found to keep the rest of us in line. Perish the thought!
Carrot and stick, No, just the stick??
BTM
It's great to see that you wrote to CHIRPS.
The bully-boy tactics that are now being used in my organisation, not too far removed from yourselves, are quite frankly appalling.
How long will it be before a scapegoat is found to keep the rest of us in line. Perish the thought!
Carrot and stick, No, just the stick??
BTM