FTL, Discretion and JAR regulations
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Of course is the whole crew a factor when it comes to the discretion and the Captain will judge whether it should be applied or not.
The Captains discretion is however a valuable tool to provide the crew with some extra flexibility in case of unforeseen circumstances. Now, JAR actually regulates the usage of unforeseen circumstances. The Captain is required to file a report whenever he exceeds flight time limitations by more than one hour and the airline is required to keep track of all extensons of flight time limitations. If flight time limitation is busted on more than 25% of the flights on any given route during a certain timeframe (3 months if I remember correctly) the company is required to revisit the route/crew scheduling. Therefore your argument that this practice is nothing else than compulsory overtime does not hold water.
The Captains discretion is however a valuable tool to provide the crew with some extra flexibility in case of unforeseen circumstances. Now, JAR actually regulates the usage of unforeseen circumstances. The Captain is required to file a report whenever he exceeds flight time limitations by more than one hour and the airline is required to keep track of all extensons of flight time limitations. If flight time limitation is busted on more than 25% of the flights on any given route during a certain timeframe (3 months if I remember correctly) the company is required to revisit the route/crew scheduling. Therefore your argument that this practice is nothing else than compulsory overtime does not hold water.
Uncle Pete
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The flexibility available through applying discretion is a vital tool for the safe operation of any airline on any given day.
It is NOT acceptable that crew are intimidated into operating when they are fatigued. That, my friends, is the law.
"It would be in your own best interest to extend your duty day".
Doesn't sound too strong...or does it?
Off to the pub!
MP
It is NOT acceptable that crew are intimidated into operating when they are fatigued. That, my friends, is the law.
"It would be in your own best interest to extend your duty day".
Doesn't sound too strong...or does it?
Off to the pub!
MP
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What responsibility do we have to the non flying general public?
By that I mean those that we potentially endanger by driving home after extending our FDP. Never let us forget the Selby train crash. Fatigue on the way home is as important as fatigue on the flight.
0600hrs report 4x sectors (10hr 45 min fdp) + 3hrs discretion + 1/2 hr for paperwork + drive home,oh forgot to mention time spent getting to work.
Thats a long day in anyones book,if pushed to the limits then something will break. Its probably by good fortune that an incident like Selby has not happend to one of us and I pray it never does.
lets hope sanity prevails
By that I mean those that we potentially endanger by driving home after extending our FDP. Never let us forget the Selby train crash. Fatigue on the way home is as important as fatigue on the flight.
0600hrs report 4x sectors (10hr 45 min fdp) + 3hrs discretion + 1/2 hr for paperwork + drive home,oh forgot to mention time spent getting to work.
Thats a long day in anyones book,if pushed to the limits then something will break. Its probably by good fortune that an incident like Selby has not happend to one of us and I pray it never does.
lets hope sanity prevails
Uncle Pete
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A few years ago I was told in no uncertain terms by the crewing department that a discretion in excess of three hours was acceptable as there was nobody else available to operate the flight.
I declined their kind offer and was told that the duty manager would be telephoning me.
I'm still waiting for the call.
MP
PS I was also reported for refusing to fly when my medical certificate had been suspended. I got an apology for this one.
I declined their kind offer and was told that the duty manager would be telephoning me.
I'm still waiting for the call.
MP
PS I was also reported for refusing to fly when my medical certificate had been suspended. I got an apology for this one.
Last edited by MaximumPete; 24th Aug 2003 at 17:51.
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Sky9 Excellent post.Faxing the Ops Director or Ops Supervisor and asking for authorisation to operate into discretion despite in your opinion (as commander) that the crew are too fatigued to operate safely usually does the trick. State you are happy to proceed but just need to receive his confirmation before you set off, as you are a little unsure as to the wording in the company operations manual, Section X.Y.Z on page NNN.
Including the phrase : "Please can you sign to confirm that you are personally giving me permission to operate in direct contravention to the company operations manual" usually suffices.
Donīt get me wrong, I donīt mind the odd occasion and am as willing as others are to excercise discretion. However the law is quite clear - If you are fatigued, you are legally obliged not to operate the flight. The point about driving home after a long serries of duties (made above) is also a valid point, although totally outside the scope of the legislation.
On the subject of CHIRP - it is secure. If you are still worried about filing a report, do not put your name on it, set up an anonymous Hotmail or Yahoo account and put it on the CHIRP form for a point of contact for more information. More importantly, donīt send it in straight after the event, leave it a couple of weeks (especially if itīs a scheduled route), as that minimises the possibility of the company trying to guess who the reporter is. Oh, and for the really paranoid post it from Inverness (unless of course you live there, then you could post it from Bristol.)
Cheers, and Safe flying everyone.
Thread Starter
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A friend of mine has a recording facility for his telephone calls from the company. He was getting concerned that calls containing disputed items were mysteriously being "mislaid" by his company. He also records all calls from his company mobile phone using a pocket recorder.
He advised the company that all calls pertaining to company business would be recorded.
Surprise, surprise, he doesn't get any threatening phone calls and everyone is sweetness itself when talking to him.
You can always advise that calls MAY be recorded and enjoy the attitude change.
It works!
BTM
He advised the company that all calls pertaining to company business would be recorded.
Surprise, surprise, he doesn't get any threatening phone calls and everyone is sweetness itself when talking to him.
You can always advise that calls MAY be recorded and enjoy the attitude change.
It works!
BTM
Last edited by BigTellyMan; 27th Aug 2003 at 00:43.
Uncle Pete
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argonaut36
You've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Perhaps the "bully-boy" tactics employed by certain individuals are being condoned by the higher echelon to keep the show on the road. This reflects the scant regard held for a very dedicated bunch of employees.
One solution would be to abolish discretion. You've used it,abused it, and now you lose it. Fair enough?
MP
You've hit the nail squarely on the head.
Perhaps the "bully-boy" tactics employed by certain individuals are being condoned by the higher echelon to keep the show on the road. This reflects the scant regard held for a very dedicated bunch of employees.
One solution would be to abolish discretion. You've used it,abused it, and now you lose it. Fair enough?
MP
Last edited by MaximumPete; 30th Aug 2003 at 18:16.
Discretion is at the 'discretion' of the Captain to exercise in unforseen cicumstances.
Unfortunately, if you are rostered to within 10-20 minutes of the maximum on a regular basis, and are frequently if not normally subject to delays, the exercise of discretion can become a regular decision to be made.
It can, therefore, come as no surprise to certain managements that Captains are less than willing to exercise their discretion.
Unfortunately, if you are rostered to within 10-20 minutes of the maximum on a regular basis, and are frequently if not normally subject to delays, the exercise of discretion can become a regular decision to be made.
It can, therefore, come as no surprise to certain managements that Captains are less than willing to exercise their discretion.
