Bomb in shoe joke lands AF pilot in hot water
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Just to keep it a bit balanced, now for the other side of the [euro] coin from AFP in Paris:
A French union representing Air France pilots on Monday accused US authorities of "intimidation" after a co-pilot on a New York to Paris flight was arrested for making a comment about a bomb during a security search.
"Air France pilots suffer intimidation that is the consequence of France's foreign policy (on Iraq) and are outraged by the scandalous attitude of the US authorities, in particular the body tasked with security checks," Philippe Raffin, the secretary general of the Syndicat des Personnels de l'Aviation Civile (SPAC), told AFP.
"This intimidation consists of a strip-tease in front of all the passengers that is unworthy of a country like the United States. It's unacceptable because it does not resemble security measures but rather score-settling in relation to French foreign policy," he said.
The United States was enraged when France opposed waging war on Iraq in March, and has vowed to make its displeasure felt.
Raffin said that the arrest at New York's John F. Kennedy airport last Friday of Philippe Riviere, the 51-year-old co-pilot on the flight to Paris, was "a second serious incident" after another "last June when an Air France pilot and crew suffered intimidation from US immigration authorities when they arrived in New York."
Riviere was released on 5,000-dollar (4,500-euro) bail Sunday after being charged with falsely reporting an incident in the first and second degree -- charges that carry respective prison sentences of up to seven and four years.
US law enforcement officials say that he had become frustrated with a security screening and was alleged to have joked "I have a bomb in my shoe," leading to his arrest.
But the New York Times newspaper quoted a passenger who witnessed the scene and who told a television channel that "one of the co-pilots got testy at the security and didn't like getting searched so much, and said: 'Well, what do you think, I have a bomb on me?'"
A French union representing Air France pilots on Monday accused US authorities of "intimidation" after a co-pilot on a New York to Paris flight was arrested for making a comment about a bomb during a security search.
"Air France pilots suffer intimidation that is the consequence of France's foreign policy (on Iraq) and are outraged by the scandalous attitude of the US authorities, in particular the body tasked with security checks," Philippe Raffin, the secretary general of the Syndicat des Personnels de l'Aviation Civile (SPAC), told AFP.
"This intimidation consists of a strip-tease in front of all the passengers that is unworthy of a country like the United States. It's unacceptable because it does not resemble security measures but rather score-settling in relation to French foreign policy," he said.
The United States was enraged when France opposed waging war on Iraq in March, and has vowed to make its displeasure felt.
Raffin said that the arrest at New York's John F. Kennedy airport last Friday of Philippe Riviere, the 51-year-old co-pilot on the flight to Paris, was "a second serious incident" after another "last June when an Air France pilot and crew suffered intimidation from US immigration authorities when they arrived in New York."
Riviere was released on 5,000-dollar (4,500-euro) bail Sunday after being charged with falsely reporting an incident in the first and second degree -- charges that carry respective prison sentences of up to seven and four years.
US law enforcement officials say that he had become frustrated with a security screening and was alleged to have joked "I have a bomb in my shoe," leading to his arrest.
But the New York Times newspaper quoted a passenger who witnessed the scene and who told a television channel that "one of the co-pilots got testy at the security and didn't like getting searched so much, and said: 'Well, what do you think, I have a bomb on me?'"
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I do hope the French will retalliate in kind.
If that is what it takes to prove to the US that their current actions are dumb, ineffective and an insult to the intelligence, so be it. We need proper and all out security, not just window dressing.
These clowns can make a security threat out of anybody, they can simply harass their "clients" until one snaps. And given the right (or wrong) circumstances, everybody will snap. So they score a big media victory and prove that the system works..
Meanwhile, the real terrorists are planning entirely different ops and just come to the airports to have a laugh. Heck, they have already won by the damage the US government is causing to its own economy and civil rights.
If that is what it takes to prove to the US that their current actions are dumb, ineffective and an insult to the intelligence, so be it. We need proper and all out security, not just window dressing.
These clowns can make a security threat out of anybody, they can simply harass their "clients" until one snaps. And given the right (or wrong) circumstances, everybody will snap. So they score a big media victory and prove that the system works..
Meanwhile, the real terrorists are planning entirely different ops and just come to the airports to have a laugh. Heck, they have already won by the damage the US government is causing to its own economy and civil rights.
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Bomb in shoe
International politics aside, I think the French pilots union comment is absolutely from the far side. If Donald Rumsfeld was the security officer examining the pilot -- well just maybe. But, what do we have here, folks?
Just a plain security person who doesn't know his @ss from a hole in the ground, and I really don't think that he/she picked on the pilot just because he was French. Maybe his haughty attitude had something to do with it, but this $14,000 a year peon wasn't called on by Collin Powell to add one more nail to the French coffin.
The pilot made a bad mistake. Let's leave it at that. There was no conspiracy.
Just a plain security person who doesn't know his @ss from a hole in the ground, and I really don't think that he/she picked on the pilot just because he was French. Maybe his haughty attitude had something to do with it, but this $14,000 a year peon wasn't called on by Collin Powell to add one more nail to the French coffin.
The pilot made a bad mistake. Let's leave it at that. There was no conspiracy.
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pilot who made the comment is ,at the very best, dim.
what was the time scale for "the flight eventualy left after a co pilot flew in from LFPG "
one would think that figures for night stop costs would have been mentioned.
capiche???
what was the time scale for "the flight eventualy left after a co pilot flew in from LFPG "
one would think that figures for night stop costs would have been mentioned.
capiche???
Great debate. However no matter which side you are on, pilot or security, this incident is only on the periphery of the debate we should be having.
There has been a sea change in public behaviour and attitude towards authority. One of the things that was dearest to my beliefs living in both UK and Canada and frequently travelling in the USA was that, compared to most other places we had an attitude of disdain, maybe even 'rebellion' to authority that made our countries truly the most free and tolerant in the world, indeed it has been frquently and exhaustively shouted that the very attitude itself was what made our countries great.
Sadly that is disappearing. Vide: the lines of dispirited passengers ( and apparently aircrew) waiting for security checks, their cowed lack of repartee, never a smile even towards those trusted with the job of guarding our lives.
And the security staff themselves, suddenly raised from the status of menial accessories to that of gods, they are handling it so badly, like spoilt brat sportstars, and who might not? They have niether the tradition nor the training to be the deities they now have become. Worse, all that and still no one likes them, our acknowledgement of their power is resentful and grudging, we are unwilling subjects so they lay about themselves spitefully, visitng their anger on those nearest, sudden power is so corrupting.
The terrorists won that last round on so many levels, but sadly, largely because we let them. Our reaction is their victory and perhaps the most pernicious was the loss of the attitude toward personal freedom that so differentiated our society from theirs, and which they hated so much.
There has been a sea change in public behaviour and attitude towards authority. One of the things that was dearest to my beliefs living in both UK and Canada and frequently travelling in the USA was that, compared to most other places we had an attitude of disdain, maybe even 'rebellion' to authority that made our countries truly the most free and tolerant in the world, indeed it has been frquently and exhaustively shouted that the very attitude itself was what made our countries great.
Sadly that is disappearing. Vide: the lines of dispirited passengers ( and apparently aircrew) waiting for security checks, their cowed lack of repartee, never a smile even towards those trusted with the job of guarding our lives.
And the security staff themselves, suddenly raised from the status of menial accessories to that of gods, they are handling it so badly, like spoilt brat sportstars, and who might not? They have niether the tradition nor the training to be the deities they now have become. Worse, all that and still no one likes them, our acknowledgement of their power is resentful and grudging, we are unwilling subjects so they lay about themselves spitefully, visitng their anger on those nearest, sudden power is so corrupting.
The terrorists won that last round on so many levels, but sadly, largely because we let them. Our reaction is their victory and perhaps the most pernicious was the loss of the attitude toward personal freedom that so differentiated our society from theirs, and which they hated so much.
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ChrisVJ
A great post and one that I agree with. On another note I had a chat with my parents a while back and their opinion of this whole security fiasco was that it reminded them of the power that the Governments assumed during WW2.
The politicians are going to be very reluctant to give up this new power trip that they are on unless the masses demand it.
A good start woud be throwing the politicians out of office, they'll understand that..
A great post and one that I agree with. On another note I had a chat with my parents a while back and their opinion of this whole security fiasco was that it reminded them of the power that the Governments assumed during WW2.
The politicians are going to be very reluctant to give up this new power trip that they are on unless the masses demand it.
A good start woud be throwing the politicians out of office, they'll understand that..
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I think that there is a political angle to this incident. I have heard that Air France pilots, arriving at US airports, are routinely being subjected to extensive delays ie. 2 - 2 1/2 hours just to get through immigration.
Recently, at JFK, an Air France Captain complained that he was feeling unwell (having waited for over 2 hours to "enter" the US). Immigration officers displayed no interest in helping him. When he passed out and collapsed, US officials still refused to help - telling the crew that they should take him back to the aircraft and radio for the paramedics from there!
It is of no surprise to me that flight crew are showing signs of getting fed up with these officials. Bid to avoid the US if you can!
Recently, at JFK, an Air France Captain complained that he was feeling unwell (having waited for over 2 hours to "enter" the US). Immigration officers displayed no interest in helping him. When he passed out and collapsed, US officials still refused to help - telling the crew that they should take him back to the aircraft and radio for the paramedics from there!
It is of no surprise to me that flight crew are showing signs of getting fed up with these officials. Bid to avoid the US if you can!
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US safety checks
1- I know personnally the french 1st Officer who was harassed by US personnel in JFK.
He is not the kind of guy to come with a stupid joke in front of any official in any country.
I just suppose there is a gap between his way of speaking english and what the "official" understood.
2- I had the occasion to go through US airports before and after Sep-11 : it went from perfect laxism to a high degree of paranoïa.
3- Since the Iraq invasion, I have collected a number of stories which prove that US "officials" (immigration, custom, safety) are too often glad enough to use a special degree of accuracy when they come to check french crews.
You can call it "nationalim", "racism".............. I just use the word "stupidity".
4- "Officials", as I call them, are only the low level personnel, who have been hastily recruited to ensure that a minimum level of safety is established in US airports.
This is maybe the cause why selection and training were not so efficient, and if you consider the salary level, it's another reason why this personnel is not as good as it could be, working in difficult conditions, whith a high responsability on their shoulders.
5- When you add to that the "french bashing" campaign which has been launched in USA by the highest authorities and relayed by the majority of popular media, it is not a surprise that the personnel cited above follows the attitude of the big chiefs.
6-Another consideration: in USA, after Sep-11, a number of laws have been passed which free the police authorities from the usual controls from democratic bodies in our so-called "civilised" countries. That means "officials" are now free to act as did their brothers in KGB, STASI................
7-Don't forget also that the foreign policy motto in USA is now "Who is not with us is against us", and the fact that US authorities feel free to act everywhere in the world whithout any consideration for local sovereignity.
Conclusion: is it exagerated to wait for the next step "God is on our side" engraved on the belt buckkle of these so polite "officials"?
Poor America!
He is not the kind of guy to come with a stupid joke in front of any official in any country.
I just suppose there is a gap between his way of speaking english and what the "official" understood.
2- I had the occasion to go through US airports before and after Sep-11 : it went from perfect laxism to a high degree of paranoïa.
3- Since the Iraq invasion, I have collected a number of stories which prove that US "officials" (immigration, custom, safety) are too often glad enough to use a special degree of accuracy when they come to check french crews.
You can call it "nationalim", "racism".............. I just use the word "stupidity".
4- "Officials", as I call them, are only the low level personnel, who have been hastily recruited to ensure that a minimum level of safety is established in US airports.
This is maybe the cause why selection and training were not so efficient, and if you consider the salary level, it's another reason why this personnel is not as good as it could be, working in difficult conditions, whith a high responsability on their shoulders.
5- When you add to that the "french bashing" campaign which has been launched in USA by the highest authorities and relayed by the majority of popular media, it is not a surprise that the personnel cited above follows the attitude of the big chiefs.
6-Another consideration: in USA, after Sep-11, a number of laws have been passed which free the police authorities from the usual controls from democratic bodies in our so-called "civilised" countries. That means "officials" are now free to act as did their brothers in KGB, STASI................
7-Don't forget also that the foreign policy motto in USA is now "Who is not with us is against us", and the fact that US authorities feel free to act everywhere in the world whithout any consideration for local sovereignity.
Conclusion: is it exagerated to wait for the next step "God is on our side" engraved on the belt buckkle of these so polite "officials"?
Poor America!
knives and forks
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Grandpa,
I really think that you're a little bit over the edge in your post that American security personnel are looking for the French. The crisis after Iraq is over and the latest signs are that relations between the countries are on the up and up.
The sad fact is, however, that the security attendant probably didn't know that this individual was an Air France pilot. The even sadder fact is that this security attendant probably didn't even know where France was.
(Latest U.S. survey shows that high school seniors had heard of Paris, but 66% didn't know where to locate it. Twenty percent didn't know that Washington, D.C. was the capital of the U.S.)
So what do you expect in this case. Do you suppose this person was a super IQ genius who was really after the "frogs" because they'd done him wrong in Iraq? I don't think so. He was probably thinking about putting new see-through plastic slip covers on his sofa in his apartment in Queens when some idiot came up to him with a bomb in the shoe prank.
I really think that you're a little bit over the edge in your post that American security personnel are looking for the French. The crisis after Iraq is over and the latest signs are that relations between the countries are on the up and up.
The sad fact is, however, that the security attendant probably didn't know that this individual was an Air France pilot. The even sadder fact is that this security attendant probably didn't even know where France was.
(Latest U.S. survey shows that high school seniors had heard of Paris, but 66% didn't know where to locate it. Twenty percent didn't know that Washington, D.C. was the capital of the U.S.)
So what do you expect in this case. Do you suppose this person was a super IQ genius who was really after the "frogs" because they'd done him wrong in Iraq? I don't think so. He was probably thinking about putting new see-through plastic slip covers on his sofa in his apartment in Queens when some idiot came up to him with a bomb in the shoe prank.
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Facts! No supposition at all
My dear latvia.
I'm affraid you didn't read my post.
So I have to repeat: french crews are not treated the same way as others in some US Airports (including JFK).
The security checks are longer, they have to wait when there is no other crew, and often when another crew is coming after them this crew is free long before them, not to speak about the attitude of the "officials".
If you speak french you could check what I say on Radiocockpit.com , there is a lot of topics about this discrimination.
I'm affraid you didn't read my post.
So I have to repeat: french crews are not treated the same way as others in some US Airports (including JFK).
The security checks are longer, they have to wait when there is no other crew, and often when another crew is coming after them this crew is free long before them, not to speak about the attitude of the "officials".
If you speak french you could check what I say on Radiocockpit.com , there is a lot of topics about this discrimination.
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I firmly think that, in the interest of civilization, the US need another Vietnam from time to time (every 30 years ?)
They have recently been successful all around (Balkans, Irak mk1, Afghanistan...) so a little bit too much went through their brains.
As I'm not american, there is no reason that I should celebrate any victory from their side. One of the terrorists goals was surely to block the air transport system as it is now through all those security stories (especially in US) and they are probably laughing a lot now.
A little suggestion : when being harassed by those security monkeys, just articulate clearly some specific comments in your own language - they will not understand ( an american speaking a foreign laguage ? he would already be a high-level industry executive) and at least the rest of your crew will have something to smile about.
They have recently been successful all around (Balkans, Irak mk1, Afghanistan...) so a little bit too much went through their brains.
As I'm not american, there is no reason that I should celebrate any victory from their side. One of the terrorists goals was surely to block the air transport system as it is now through all those security stories (especially in US) and they are probably laughing a lot now.
A little suggestion : when being harassed by those security monkeys, just articulate clearly some specific comments in your own language - they will not understand ( an american speaking a foreign laguage ? he would already be a high-level industry executive) and at least the rest of your crew will have something to smile about.
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recceguy,
I don't see that the Vietnam War has anything to do with today's aviation security measures at airports and I was wrong to insinuate that harassment takes place only at American airports.
At Heathrow I saw a British security official order an Indian seikh to remove his wound up turban which I imagine was very demeaning for him, I guess because of cast and religion. He protested, but finally did it. Nothing was found, but at least 100 people oogled him. It was like what do they wear under a Scottish kilt.
Going back to Vietnam, wasn't it the French who lost the great battle of Dien Bien Phu and then pulled all their troops out of the country. I believe it was in the mid-1950s.
So, Vietnam, my friend, has nothing to do with airport security, no matter how much we dislike the security personnel. Most of them don't even remember Vietnam.
I don't see that the Vietnam War has anything to do with today's aviation security measures at airports and I was wrong to insinuate that harassment takes place only at American airports.
At Heathrow I saw a British security official order an Indian seikh to remove his wound up turban which I imagine was very demeaning for him, I guess because of cast and religion. He protested, but finally did it. Nothing was found, but at least 100 people oogled him. It was like what do they wear under a Scottish kilt.
Going back to Vietnam, wasn't it the French who lost the great battle of Dien Bien Phu and then pulled all their troops out of the country. I believe it was in the mid-1950s.
So, Vietnam, my friend, has nothing to do with airport security, no matter how much we dislike the security personnel. Most of them don't even remember Vietnam.
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>>At Heathrow I saw a British security official order an Indian seikh to remove his wound up turban which I imagine was very demeaning for him, I guess because of cast and religion. He protested, but finally did it. Nothing was found, but at least 100 people oogled him. It was like what do they wear under a Scottish kilt.<<
Well, by tradition Sikhs carry daggers but at LHR they have received a politically correct special exemption that does not apply to members of other religions.
See:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=59697
Well, by tradition Sikhs carry daggers but at LHR they have received a politically correct special exemption that does not apply to members of other religions.
See:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=59697
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This is obviously a very emotive subject but I would like to make one observation.
Nearly all of the criticism has been directed at US security screening, yet for many years US pilots have had to subject themselves to security screening throughout Europe and don't appear to have found that too onerous. Whilst it is true that there have been notable lapses, such as Richard Reid and his explosive shoes getting past security in Paris, in general, aviation security is still pretty good.
The problem would seem to be that post 9/11, the US in typical fashion, decided re-invent the the wheel and the result is the rather OTT and ham-fisted approach that is currently empoyed. If true, I find it quite unbelieveable that ground staff are not subjected to the same level of security screeing as everyone else requiring airside access.
There's been a lot of sniping at the intelligence of TSA security screeners, but in my personal experience they are far superior to those employed by the private companies that provided security checking prior to the TSA. Give these people a break, they're doing an unpopular but very necessary job.
Nearly all of the criticism has been directed at US security screening, yet for many years US pilots have had to subject themselves to security screening throughout Europe and don't appear to have found that too onerous. Whilst it is true that there have been notable lapses, such as Richard Reid and his explosive shoes getting past security in Paris, in general, aviation security is still pretty good.
The problem would seem to be that post 9/11, the US in typical fashion, decided re-invent the the wheel and the result is the rather OTT and ham-fisted approach that is currently empoyed. If true, I find it quite unbelieveable that ground staff are not subjected to the same level of security screeing as everyone else requiring airside access.
There's been a lot of sniping at the intelligence of TSA security screeners, but in my personal experience they are far superior to those employed by the private companies that provided security checking prior to the TSA. Give these people a break, they're doing an unpopular but very necessary job.
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From Today's Irish Independent.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/
GAA star 'bomb joke' case closed
LEITRIM footballer Ciaran Murray, who joked about having a bomb in his bag at JFK International Airport, has had charges against him dismissed in New York.
The case arose when Murray, returning after beating New York in the Connacht championship, joked with security in JFK that he had a bomb in his bag.
"Search it good, now, because I have a bomb in there. It's only a small bomb, though," he said, according to court records.
The 27-year-old sales representative from Ballinamore, Co Leitrim, was promptly arrested for making a false report.
Facing that charge, which carried a seven-year jail term, Mr Murray pleaded guilty and was released on a $2,500 bond.
He was later ordered to complete 70 hours of community service and pay a $250 fine.
At the court yesterday, Mr Murray was cleared of all charges when he produced proof that he had completed his community service in New York.
It is not known what type of community service he had to carry out.
Mr Murray, who was not required to appear at court yesterday, was in Ireland when he heard the news that he was cleared.
According to his lawyer, Eugene Crowe, he is relieved to have the ordeal behind him.
Georgina Brennan
in New York
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/
GAA star 'bomb joke' case closed
LEITRIM footballer Ciaran Murray, who joked about having a bomb in his bag at JFK International Airport, has had charges against him dismissed in New York.
The case arose when Murray, returning after beating New York in the Connacht championship, joked with security in JFK that he had a bomb in his bag.
"Search it good, now, because I have a bomb in there. It's only a small bomb, though," he said, according to court records.
The 27-year-old sales representative from Ballinamore, Co Leitrim, was promptly arrested for making a false report.
Facing that charge, which carried a seven-year jail term, Mr Murray pleaded guilty and was released on a $2,500 bond.
He was later ordered to complete 70 hours of community service and pay a $250 fine.
At the court yesterday, Mr Murray was cleared of all charges when he produced proof that he had completed his community service in New York.
It is not known what type of community service he had to carry out.
Mr Murray, who was not required to appear at court yesterday, was in Ireland when he heard the news that he was cleared.
According to his lawyer, Eugene Crowe, he is relieved to have the ordeal behind him.
Georgina Brennan
in New York
#1. I believe you. Personally, I am betting on the FO's side of the story.
#2. Somewhat agree. A little paranoia is needed. Last time I looked, a few muderous bastards have stated they will keep trying to attack US aircraft. They also have millions more that tacitly approve of their methods of solving grievences.
#3. It's not just the French. I am a born in the US, caucaisan pilot on international routes and I can tell you they treat evryone like chit.
#4. The salary level isn't that bad for the brains required.
#5. The "French bashing" in the states has been fleeting and never has equaled the pompous, arrogant sustained level of bashing the French have inflicted on all things related to the USA for decades.
#6. KGB and the Stasi may be a little strong comparisons. It still bears watching to prevent abuses and concentrations of power.
#7. Not quite. It makes a nice slogan for the whining masses though
#2. Somewhat agree. A little paranoia is needed. Last time I looked, a few muderous bastards have stated they will keep trying to attack US aircraft. They also have millions more that tacitly approve of their methods of solving grievences.
#3. It's not just the French. I am a born in the US, caucaisan pilot on international routes and I can tell you they treat evryone like chit.
#4. The salary level isn't that bad for the brains required.
#5. The "French bashing" in the states has been fleeting and never has equaled the pompous, arrogant sustained level of bashing the French have inflicted on all things related to the USA for decades.
#6. KGB and the Stasi may be a little strong comparisons. It still bears watching to prevent abuses and concentrations of power.
#7. Not quite. It makes a nice slogan for the whining masses though