Upset on AA Flight
Thread Starter
Upset on AA Flight
On 13th July a friend of mine was flying from Chicago to Albuquerque on an American airlines flight (flight number and aircraft type to be confirmed). He has stated that shortly before arrival, and at an estimated 20,000 ft, the aircraft rolled to around 90 degrees of left bank (although there was no sudden or violent motion to precipitate this), the nose dropped markedly, the roll reversed until the bank angle was an estimated 90 degrees to the right, then the aircraft rolled back to wings level and finally pulled out of the steep dive that it was now in at an estimated 2,000 ft. My friend was at the front of the cabin and heard audio alarms from the flight deck although he could not tell if there were any voice warnings. On levelling off he heard a call on the flight deck of "Get the gear down quick", and the aircraft landed (very smoothly!) about 2 minutes later. He and his colleagues thought at one stage that the aircraft was going to impact the ground. The cabin crew were very shaken but all of the passengers remained calm. At no stage prior to disembarkation was a PA made explaining the incident.
Does anyone out there have any details on this incident?
Does anyone out there have any details on this incident?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Farnham, UK
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I seem to remember a Southwest Airlines approach that ended up with the aircraft "slam dunked" against a stop sign at a gas station outside the airport fence.
Is that typical..........?
T'bug
Is that typical..........?
T'bug
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got an unexpected straight-in, had to make some steepturns to lose some height, pulled the GPWS cb just a second too late (P18-1 3rd row right side), so probably had no time to do PA and was doing his ASR instead.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: maas
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds more like an ex Fed Ex crew (or similar) forgetting they had pax instead of boxes. Watching them land in a similar fashion at Memphis is impressive.
" dorked it up" sounds like he nailed it.
Sorry for the pax though
" dorked it up" sounds like he nailed it.
Sorry for the pax though
How does one tell the difference between a serious Saturday night posting and the first off-the-cuff replies? Lomcevak's post is pretty blood-curdling. There must be lots of antennae raised for more info, particularly on a/c type.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Estados Unidos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It only sounds blood-curdling if it's true...but to be honest, this "story" sounds like a load of 
I'm wondering if the post is a poor attempt at trolling.
Arrivals and departures in and out of Albuquerque in the summer time are very bumpy to begin with, so an approach is never very comfortable (from a passenger standpoint) this time of year. Also, the airport sits at about 5300' and there is higher terrain to the east and north. It's possible that the aircraft in question was kept at altitude a bit longer than normal. Then when it came time to descend, they may have had to do a fairly expeditious descent.
However, I would bet cold hard cash that it was not a 90-degree bank, nor a 20000 to 2000 foot drop, nor anything else that could be classified as dangerous. They might have simply made a descending turn, and made an "S-turn" out of it, and they may have put the gear down early to help expedite their descent. It's possible that one pilot saw the need to do so before the other pilot did, which would explain the "get the gear down quick" remark. No big deal at all.
I'm inclined to think that the "witness" might not have his facts straight. Either that or my 2nd paragraph is true.
Think about it ... 20,000 to 2000 feet? As estimated by whom? 90 degrees of bank? As estimated by whom? Steep dive? (Same question...) Was anyone injured? Was this event mentioned in any industry news or public news?
I've heard pax say things like "Wow, we went right through that thunderstorm," when in fact we didn't get closer than 30 miles (we were simply in adjacent clouds). I've heard pax say an aircraft was "turned fully on its side" when in fact it was about 25 degrees of bank. I've heard pax say "we went over those mountains at only a few hundred feet" when in fact we went over them with at least 5000' clearance.
Warning sirens are often heard on aircraft when autopilots and/or autothrottles are disconnected. Or horns can be heard if approaching a given altitude.
I'm not insinuating that passengers aren't aware. Many of them are very astute, and are very much in tune with what is happening on an aircraft. However, other pax have limited knowledge of what is really happening on an aircraft, or they have limited experience, so when something "out of the ordinary" occurs (i.e. an expedited descent in an unfamiliar area), their perceptions get distorted.
It's just my opinion, but I think it makes more sense than the originally described scenario.
I'm wondering if the post is a poor attempt at trolling.
Arrivals and departures in and out of Albuquerque in the summer time are very bumpy to begin with, so an approach is never very comfortable (from a passenger standpoint) this time of year. Also, the airport sits at about 5300' and there is higher terrain to the east and north. It's possible that the aircraft in question was kept at altitude a bit longer than normal. Then when it came time to descend, they may have had to do a fairly expeditious descent.
However, I would bet cold hard cash that it was not a 90-degree bank, nor a 20000 to 2000 foot drop, nor anything else that could be classified as dangerous. They might have simply made a descending turn, and made an "S-turn" out of it, and they may have put the gear down early to help expedite their descent. It's possible that one pilot saw the need to do so before the other pilot did, which would explain the "get the gear down quick" remark. No big deal at all.
I'm inclined to think that the "witness" might not have his facts straight. Either that or my 2nd paragraph is true.
Think about it ... 20,000 to 2000 feet? As estimated by whom? 90 degrees of bank? As estimated by whom? Steep dive? (Same question...) Was anyone injured? Was this event mentioned in any industry news or public news?
I've heard pax say things like "Wow, we went right through that thunderstorm," when in fact we didn't get closer than 30 miles (we were simply in adjacent clouds). I've heard pax say an aircraft was "turned fully on its side" when in fact it was about 25 degrees of bank. I've heard pax say "we went over those mountains at only a few hundred feet" when in fact we went over them with at least 5000' clearance.
Warning sirens are often heard on aircraft when autopilots and/or autothrottles are disconnected. Or horns can be heard if approaching a given altitude.
I'm not insinuating that passengers aren't aware. Many of them are very astute, and are very much in tune with what is happening on an aircraft. However, other pax have limited knowledge of what is really happening on an aircraft, or they have limited experience, so when something "out of the ordinary" occurs (i.e. an expedited descent in an unfamiliar area), their perceptions get distorted.
It's just my opinion, but I think it makes more sense than the originally described scenario.
Crotalo: Well-put. Without a doubt, this would have quickly made CNN and many newspapers' 2nd or 3rd pages. Even large chunks of blue ice from the fuselage have made a much bigger media splash than this "reported" incident.
Many passengers spend many years flying without attempting to learn the difference between a small bumpy cumulus cloud and a thunderstorm, or showing the initiative to find out if gusty winds are the same as windshear (i.e. microburst).
Careful: you might let the air out of the media's "balloons", that is, the constant attempts to capture the local yokels' attention by spreading dis-information and choosing NOT to enlighten the flying public. The fact that many airline tickets cost not much more than a US Greyhound bus ticket will allow the media's half-truths and innuendos to be even easier to propagate.
Many passengers spend many years flying without attempting to learn the difference between a small bumpy cumulus cloud and a thunderstorm, or showing the initiative to find out if gusty winds are the same as windshear (i.e. microburst).
Careful: you might let the air out of the media's "balloons", that is, the constant attempts to capture the local yokels' attention by spreading dis-information and choosing NOT to enlighten the flying public. The fact that many airline tickets cost not much more than a US Greyhound bus ticket will allow the media's half-truths and innuendos to be even easier to propagate.
So, did it happen or not ? Just because it wasn't reported in the press doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And check Lomcevak's profile - he's one of the few posters on PPRuNe whose profile is accurate and as such, he's not prone to overstatement.
And check Lomcevak's profile - he's one of the few posters on PPRuNe whose profile is accurate and as such, he's not prone to overstatement.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: EIDW
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing that strikes me as odd (besides the bank angles ofcourse), is that supposedly the aircraft quickly lost 18000 feet, but immediately after that was in a perfect position for a landing? That would mean that before this alledged incident the aircraft was 18000 feet above it's profile. Now that seems unlikely to me.
Also to have no injuries after 90' bank and reversal to 90' the other way? Suggests to me that either the injuries are underestimated or the bank overestimated.
Agree with the above posts that it may well have felt and looked a whole lot worse than it was. However, worth trying to find out though!
Also to have no injuries after 90' bank and reversal to 90' the other way? Suggests to me that either the injuries are underestimated or the bank overestimated.
Agree with the above posts that it may well have felt and looked a whole lot worse than it was. However, worth trying to find out though!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Estados Unidos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point Nr Fairy, and perhaps I should clarify that I mean no offense to LOMCEVAK, and I am not doubting his personal credibility.
I am curious though regarding the experience level of his friend who was on the flight, since it is the friend's account which we are reading. I, like most pilots, have had friends who have related perceived flight conditions, only to find out that in reality, it was simply a matter of misinterpretation of their sensory inputs.
Edited to add: I've just completed a fairly exhaustive search of databases, to include FAA, NTSB, and ASRS/NASA. This last agency collects reports of irregular activity from Pilots, Cabin Attendants, and Air Traffic Controllers, and I've turned up nothing. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the databases, but I am reasonably familiar with how the reporting system works, and I believe that at least one of these three groups of people would have reported such an event.
I am curious though regarding the experience level of his friend who was on the flight, since it is the friend's account which we are reading. I, like most pilots, have had friends who have related perceived flight conditions, only to find out that in reality, it was simply a matter of misinterpretation of their sensory inputs.
Edited to add: I've just completed a fairly exhaustive search of databases, to include FAA, NTSB, and ASRS/NASA. This last agency collects reports of irregular activity from Pilots, Cabin Attendants, and Air Traffic Controllers, and I've turned up nothing. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the databases, but I am reasonably familiar with how the reporting system works, and I believe that at least one of these three groups of people would have reported such an event.
Last edited by Crótalo; 27th Jul 2003 at 22:10.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crótalo,
EXCELLENT posts!
Without knowing what type A/C it is hard to decipher. I know the 737 could go from 20,000 to 5,350 in about 4-5 minutes (Gear/Boards and 250KTS with room to slow and configure) but that is an unusual maneuver. I diverted into ABQ a few months back in a heavy 700 with a medical emergency and it seemingly took forever to get down.
Thunderbug,
"Is that typical..........?"
Thanks for offering the chance to educate you. My airline flies about 2000 flights a day throughout it's system, in all kinds of weather and at all times of day. Some of the approaches involve high finals as a matter of course. Example: The approach across DFW into Love Field landing 13R puts you at 9,000 feet about 15 miles out. That is by controler vector and approach procedure. We are told about this approach in class as newhires and when we see it on the line the first time, it is always an eye opener. From early on, we have established a historical reputation for doing the "near impossible" as viewed through the eyes of the controller within the context of what other airlines offer to do. If you ask any ATC controller what his favorite airline to work is, invariably SWA is amongst that small group.
True story: Continental held up for VFR traffic finally gets cleared to DFW tower. As they ship to tower, the Continental Captain tells DFW approach, "You need to come up to Chicago and learn how to control!" to which the DFW Approach controller says, "You need to go to Southwest and learn how to fly."
Without going into the BUR incident (which is detailed in the NTSB final report for your reading pleasure) anyone who would continue an approach as botched up as that one was clearly not thinking right. Aircraft are piloted by humans who occassionally make mistakes but I'll put our record up against anyone's. Make no mistake: We can do better and we constantly strive in that aim.
PT
EXCELLENT posts!
Without knowing what type A/C it is hard to decipher. I know the 737 could go from 20,000 to 5,350 in about 4-5 minutes (Gear/Boards and 250KTS with room to slow and configure) but that is an unusual maneuver. I diverted into ABQ a few months back in a heavy 700 with a medical emergency and it seemingly took forever to get down.
Thunderbug,
"Is that typical..........?"
Thanks for offering the chance to educate you. My airline flies about 2000 flights a day throughout it's system, in all kinds of weather and at all times of day. Some of the approaches involve high finals as a matter of course. Example: The approach across DFW into Love Field landing 13R puts you at 9,000 feet about 15 miles out. That is by controler vector and approach procedure. We are told about this approach in class as newhires and when we see it on the line the first time, it is always an eye opener. From early on, we have established a historical reputation for doing the "near impossible" as viewed through the eyes of the controller within the context of what other airlines offer to do. If you ask any ATC controller what his favorite airline to work is, invariably SWA is amongst that small group.
True story: Continental held up for VFR traffic finally gets cleared to DFW tower. As they ship to tower, the Continental Captain tells DFW approach, "You need to come up to Chicago and learn how to control!" to which the DFW Approach controller says, "You need to go to Southwest and learn how to fly."
Without going into the BUR incident (which is detailed in the NTSB final report for your reading pleasure) anyone who would continue an approach as botched up as that one was clearly not thinking right. Aircraft are piloted by humans who occassionally make mistakes but I'll put our record up against anyone's. Make no mistake: We can do better and we constantly strive in that aim.
PT
Last edited by PlaneTruth; 28th Jul 2003 at 03:18.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you wish to hear of an expert's opinion on such incidents, may I suggest that you contact wsherif1 from the MI185 thread. An extract from his pearls of wisdom follows:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...windshear across the pitot tubes..."
If you would read excerpts from NWA Capt. Paul Soderlind's Flight Standards Bulletin 3-65 regarding erroneous flight instrument indications, (on this forum), and also Boeing Publication "Aero 08", which covers the same subject, it should be enlightning.
Because of my unique experience, encountering a strong updraft
induced pitch-up, in the clear, above thunderstorm activity, I am aware of what actually happens in a pitch-up. I am trying to pass along some information to those who have not had this happen to them, yet!
As the NTSB says, "Piot reaction to turbulence can be more of a problem then the jolt of turbulence itself."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...windshear across the pitot tubes..."
If you would read excerpts from NWA Capt. Paul Soderlind's Flight Standards Bulletin 3-65 regarding erroneous flight instrument indications, (on this forum), and also Boeing Publication "Aero 08", which covers the same subject, it should be enlightning.
Because of my unique experience, encountering a strong updraft
induced pitch-up, in the clear, above thunderstorm activity, I am aware of what actually happens in a pitch-up. I am trying to pass along some information to those who have not had this happen to them, yet!
As the NTSB says, "Piot reaction to turbulence can be more of a problem then the jolt of turbulence itself."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thread Starter
I have just reported data as described to me by my friend. His estimates probably do include large errors, but the event was startling to him and the 4 colleagues with whom he was travelling. The cabin crew were alarmed by the event, saying that they had never experienced anything like it, and the FO looked "white" as the passengers disembarked.
My friend is going to let me know the flight number so that hopefully we can ascertain the aircraft type. He travels frequently by air, but is not an enthusiast so does not recall the type. He is a very capable scientist by profession and not prone to exaggeration; he has also flown with me in a fast jet aircraft so has experienced aerobatic manoeuvres and extreme attitudes. One of the colleagues travelling with him has been rear crew on the Nimrod fleet and had never experienced such an event which, having frequently experienced 60 degree banked turns at low level, gives an indication of the magnitude of this incident.
This is a genuine post. If anyone wishes to discuss this further by private e-mail, I will obviously respect their confidence. Finally, Crotalo, no offence taken; I understand your scepticism.
My friend is going to let me know the flight number so that hopefully we can ascertain the aircraft type. He travels frequently by air, but is not an enthusiast so does not recall the type. He is a very capable scientist by profession and not prone to exaggeration; he has also flown with me in a fast jet aircraft so has experienced aerobatic manoeuvres and extreme attitudes. One of the colleagues travelling with him has been rear crew on the Nimrod fleet and had never experienced such an event which, having frequently experienced 60 degree banked turns at low level, gives an indication of the magnitude of this incident.
This is a genuine post. If anyone wishes to discuss this further by private e-mail, I will obviously respect their confidence. Finally, Crotalo, no offence taken; I understand your scepticism.
"Shortly before arrival, and at an estimated 20,000 ft"
My detector went off at that point.
As an aside, you can always tell who the private pilots are as they get off the plane. Little remarks, "that windsock showed us landing downwind" "ATC sure kept us high" "Did you see that traffic for the parallel?"
My detector went off at that point.
As an aside, you can always tell who the private pilots are as they get off the plane. Little remarks, "that windsock showed us landing downwind" "ATC sure kept us high" "Did you see that traffic for the parallel?"
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 74
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do Not believe it
LIke West Coast, my detector also went off.
If Lomcevak is as steely-eyed & square-jawed a superhero as his profile claims - well his post resembles a FlightSimmers first real flight.
Remember the pic of the incredibly fat baldy guy at the PC typing "My name is Shirley and I'm only 18 etc"
Methinks that someone with the experience claimed by Lomcevak
"RAF test pilot (mainly fast jet), a couple of years flying commercial long haul, currently flying military aircraft (sharp, pointy and largish ones) as a civilian. Many years display flying (military jets and Warbirds). " would not dream of posting it on a bulletin board. Real testpilots do not brag.
To me its a load of ballcocks.
If Lomcevak is as steely-eyed & square-jawed a superhero as his profile claims - well his post resembles a FlightSimmers first real flight.
Remember the pic of the incredibly fat baldy guy at the PC typing "My name is Shirley and I'm only 18 etc"
Methinks that someone with the experience claimed by Lomcevak
"RAF test pilot (mainly fast jet), a couple of years flying commercial long haul, currently flying military aircraft (sharp, pointy and largish ones) as a civilian. Many years display flying (military jets and Warbirds). " would not dream of posting it on a bulletin board. Real testpilots do not brag.
To me its a load of ballcocks.
N4790P
<<As an aside, you can always tell who the private pilots are as they get off the plane. Little remarks, "that windsock showed us landing downwind" "ATC sure kept us high" "Did you see that traffic for the parallel?">>
A little unkind. You held just a PPL once.
A little unkind. You held just a PPL once.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WideBodiedEng and any others who may doubt LOMCEVAK's credentials... don't! I and many other PPRuNer's have met the gentleman and can vouch for him. There is no 'bragging' as you are assuming. Just the mans credentials in his profile!
Now, back to the topic.
Now, back to the topic.
Union Goon
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AA had 3 flights that day.
507,709 and 607
They were all MD80s, ship numbers 593, 594, 590
There are no maintenance items (log book entries) relavent to that sort of thing on that day or any time in the last 20 days against those 3 ships. The ships went out on the next leg on time without a substitution of equiptment.
A 90 degree right bank followed by a 90 degree immediate left bank would generate at the minimum a write up for cabin service to reinstall everything in the galley. and generally clean up the aircraft (including the LAVs, the MD80s have the tank type lavs I think, not the new suction ones), not to mention a structural check would be required...
It is possible that maybe this was an Eagle flight (one of those Jungle jets or canadair jets) in which case I can't see it in our partition of the computer, infact I can't even see if they fly between the two cities (management wouldn't want the old rank and file knowing how bad we are getting raped on scope after all ) unless I go into a whole different computer system (res vs decs...).
The view from the small porthole windows has very little in common with the view from a big bubble canopy in a fast mover. Things may look more exciting than they were...
As for pale crew members, have you seen our pay checks lately? (most of us are down around 40 percent or more, and the F/O listed on 2 of the 3 flights are due to be laid off soon, I would look pale too)
Cheers
Wino (AA A300 F/O)
507,709 and 607
They were all MD80s, ship numbers 593, 594, 590
There are no maintenance items (log book entries) relavent to that sort of thing on that day or any time in the last 20 days against those 3 ships. The ships went out on the next leg on time without a substitution of equiptment.
A 90 degree right bank followed by a 90 degree immediate left bank would generate at the minimum a write up for cabin service to reinstall everything in the galley. and generally clean up the aircraft (including the LAVs, the MD80s have the tank type lavs I think, not the new suction ones), not to mention a structural check would be required...
It is possible that maybe this was an Eagle flight (one of those Jungle jets or canadair jets) in which case I can't see it in our partition of the computer, infact I can't even see if they fly between the two cities (management wouldn't want the old rank and file knowing how bad we are getting raped on scope after all
) unless I go into a whole different computer system (res vs decs...).The view from the small porthole windows has very little in common with the view from a big bubble canopy in a fast mover. Things may look more exciting than they were...
As for pale crew members, have you seen our pay checks lately? (most of us are down around 40 percent or more, and the F/O listed on 2 of the 3 flights are due to be laid off soon, I would look pale too)
Cheers
Wino (AA A300 F/O)
Guest
Posts: n/a
West Coast
Sorry to disappoint you, but you can't spot all the PPLs mate.
Some of us who fly as pax a lot for our day jobs will probably give you not much more than 'thanks and bye', since your skills in getting us there are appreciated, but assumed and our focus is on getting to our next meeting, which is rather more important than discussing recent history.
Having said that, it is somewhat rare that the 'skygods' show themselves to the great unwashed these days
Sorry to disappoint you, but you can't spot all the PPLs mate.
Some of us who fly as pax a lot for our day jobs will probably give you not much more than 'thanks and bye', since your skills in getting us there are appreciated, but assumed and our focus is on getting to our next meeting, which is rather more important than discussing recent history.
Having said that, it is somewhat rare that the 'skygods' show themselves to the great unwashed these days
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 28th Jul 2003 at 17:25.