View Poll Results: At what age do you think airline pilots should forced to stop piloting?
No age limit subject to medicals and competency
752
54.22%
They should stop flying at 65
297
21.41%
They should stop flying at 60
317
22.86%
No opinion
21
1.51%
Voters: 1387. This poll is closed
The new law on "ageism" - where does it leave pilots and crew who want to carry on!?
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oh oh
In this discussion the age of 55 is not an issue. Some airlines, (a few), retire their pilots at 55 but this is usually after they have enjoyed a full career and then get, say, a 75% of final salary pension and a lump sum of, say, GBP100K. Under those conditions it would be hard to imagine the circumstances under which a pilot would choose to work beyond the age of 55, (but they do! just ask SIA!).
The age issue concerns pilots who are obliged to retire at the age of 60 when they feel perfectly able to continue for a few years and their medical state and professional performance indicates that they could. Often such pilots have not had the good fortune to remain in one company or on a steadily increasing salary scale for their flying career but more often have been made redundant a few times or put out of work due to a company going broke. Such pilots are numerous and when they started out on their flying career the retirement age was 65!.
Had I ever had the opportunity, at an early age, to join one of the few companies that has a retirement age of 55 then I would have known that I was on a 'banker' and continuing beyond 60 would not have occured to me!
The age issue concerns pilots who are obliged to retire at the age of 60 when they feel perfectly able to continue for a few years and their medical state and professional performance indicates that they could. Often such pilots have not had the good fortune to remain in one company or on a steadily increasing salary scale for their flying career but more often have been made redundant a few times or put out of work due to a company going broke. Such pilots are numerous and when they started out on their flying career the retirement age was 65!.
Had I ever had the opportunity, at an early age, to join one of the few companies that has a retirement age of 55 then I would have known that I was on a 'banker' and continuing beyond 60 would not have occured to me!
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Another thought to toss around.
When the CAA introduced the 60 year 'retirement' rule for Captains, who could continue as a CPL in the RHS if they so wished - not many did. It was said at the time that high heart incidence was the reason. As I understand it, this 'reason' has reduced somewhat in the last decade. So when the CAA hears the knock on the front door - will they answer?
Or was it just a way of 'persuading' pilots to retire? Thus giving others achance?
As I say, just a thought.
When the CAA introduced the 60 year 'retirement' rule for Captains, who could continue as a CPL in the RHS if they so wished - not many did. It was said at the time that high heart incidence was the reason. As I understand it, this 'reason' has reduced somewhat in the last decade. So when the CAA hears the knock on the front door - will they answer?
Or was it just a way of 'persuading' pilots to retire? Thus giving others achance?
As I say, just a thought.
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Age & flying
While I empathise with those of less advanced years, I for one, through the fault of various airline managements, the economy and the high cost of beer, can simply not afford to "retire" at age 60. I would much rather continue flying, as it is the only qualification I posess, and something I love doing, than end up as a door greeter at Walmart (or ASDA) for the rest of my working life. The whole argument about getting out of the way for the next generation, if valid, should be applied to doctors, lawyers, corporate CEOs, etc. When that happens, I shall shut up. Until then I shall continue to rage against the dying of the flight!!
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Ok, I've said it elsewhere on pprune, and now i'll say it again...
All of us get one shot at life, and when we reach retirement age, whatever that may work out to be,,, we should have taken time during our working years to prepare for that day.
I am a second generation flyer, my dad just recently retired after a long and colourful career as a B747 FE. He often tells me how he misses the job, the jet, the night stops, the money...
But what he also says is that he's glad he planned some projects to tackle when the cockpit door closed behind him for the last time.
Where am I going with this?? I was out of work for 8 months this year, while airlines were happy to employ guys well into their 60's, who draw both a pension and a salary while younger guys (like me)sat at home with no income, and as a result no ability to build a retirement at all.
The airlines take advantage of it too.. they only hire guys who are type-rated AND current these days,, and guess who fits the description??... all the guys who are a heartbeat from retiring anyway. This is going to take its toll on the profession(s), and then consequently on the industry.
If you want to keep on after 60 or 65,,, take that fat retirement, go buy yourself an airplane and keep yourself amused... Just please leave younger guys an opportunity to keep their jobs and so one day retire in the same fine style as is common nowadays.
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...as a low hours pilot myself, i think that i would rather be sitting in the right hand seat with an older, experienced pilot than another kid like myself. old pilots and bold pilots!!!
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We had a few guys come here from Delta that took the early retirement option.
We were told that this package was 1.2 million dollars.
Why they would want to continue is beyond any reason that I can comprehend.
One Capt. did not even draw his pay for one year, told them to hold it for him.
We had alot of good times flying with these guys.
But had I been in their shoes I would have been trying to make up for all the years of qaulity time lost with family.
Most of these guys were well off an did not need to do this.
Still I can recognise the need to continue in a job an lifestyle that you relate too.
To each his own, both sides of the fence are right.
We were told that this package was 1.2 million dollars.
Why they would want to continue is beyond any reason that I can comprehend.
One Capt. did not even draw his pay for one year, told them to hold it for him.
We had alot of good times flying with these guys.
But had I been in their shoes I would have been trying to make up for all the years of qaulity time lost with family.
Most of these guys were well off an did not need to do this.
Still I can recognise the need to continue in a job an lifestyle that you relate too.
To each his own, both sides of the fence are right.
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I can assure one and all that if I had a retirement package worth 1.2 million (or even half that), I would be spending the rest of my life polishing a super cub by a grass strip. It is economic necessity alone that forces the requirement to continue employment past the age of 60. The problem is that many of us, especially those of us in the contract pilot community, have not been too fortunate in the pension race. Many of my compatriots, as well as my humble self, have seen whatever gains we made wiped out by unscrupulous agents, the vagaries of the stock market, the high cost of private medical insurance, loss of licence insurance and other amenities NOT provided by our employers. I chose this career because of my love of flying, and ended up as a contract pilot because I was deemed too old (32) to be hired by a US carrier when I left the USAF. (Remember those days, when they wouldn't even grant you an interview if you were over 30?) I have thoroughly enjoyed the kind of flying I have done, and have had the opportunity to live in some intriguing (and unstable) places. While I don't relish the thought of living out of a suitcase for the foreseeable future, I have no other economic choice if I am to see my kids through college. If one of you young sprats out there would like to sign your multi million dollar pension rights over to me, I shall vacate the flight deck of my 747 via the escape hatch faster than the ink dries on the check. Until then, I shall continue to search for post 60 flying jobs so that my family can continue to enjoy a roof over their heads and three meals a day.
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Why I want to fly age 60+:
Fit/healthy commercial helo pilot UK. Age 53. £38000/yr. No other qualifications, Single income household.
Luckier than some, I also have mil pension (£9500/yr)
Company pension estimate at 60 = £1500/yr. (Yes, ONE thousand, five hundred !)
Savings: nil. (3 Children just finished college.)
Mortgage= interest only. So will sell on retirement. (or pay off £160,000 in 7 years!)
Fit/healthy commercial helo pilot UK. Age 53. £38000/yr. No other qualifications, Single income household.
Luckier than some, I also have mil pension (£9500/yr)
Company pension estimate at 60 = £1500/yr. (Yes, ONE thousand, five hundred !)
Savings: nil. (3 Children just finished college.)
Mortgage= interest only. So will sell on retirement. (or pay off £160,000 in 7 years!)
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I heard somewhere that at least one UK charter airline has a dispensation from the DGAC in France to allow pilots in command to operate over France when above age 60.
If this is the case does anyone have any info?
Also where would one write to apply for a personal dispensation from the French age 60 rule?
If this is the case does anyone have any info?
Also where would one write to apply for a personal dispensation from the French age 60 rule?
Stage Coach Driver,
I am for age 60 retirements right now. I do however have issues with your comments about multiple vacation houses and ex wives.
I have been flying for about 20 years and so far I have not aquired any vacation homes or ex wives. I have however collected a fairly sizeable collection of pilot wings from airlines that went out of business or have laid me off.
After 16 years of trying I finally landed a dream job at a major US airline,TWA. then along came AA and it took one year for them to screw all the TWA folks out of that job. Now I am looking at starting over at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else with bottom of the list pay. This is with 18 years to go until age 60 retirement.
So don't go thinking all airline pilots have gold lined pockets from years of top tier pay. In reality most pilot make meager to fair pay for most of their careers and then if they are lucky will make the widebody captain pay for just a few years before they are forced to retire.
Sincerely, Stearperson
I am for age 60 retirements right now. I do however have issues with your comments about multiple vacation houses and ex wives.
I have been flying for about 20 years and so far I have not aquired any vacation homes or ex wives. I have however collected a fairly sizeable collection of pilot wings from airlines that went out of business or have laid me off.
After 16 years of trying I finally landed a dream job at a major US airline,TWA. then along came AA and it took one year for them to screw all the TWA folks out of that job. Now I am looking at starting over at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else with bottom of the list pay. This is with 18 years to go until age 60 retirement.
So don't go thinking all airline pilots have gold lined pockets from years of top tier pay. In reality most pilot make meager to fair pay for most of their careers and then if they are lucky will make the widebody captain pay for just a few years before they are forced to retire.
Sincerely, Stearperson
Last edited by Stearperson; 14th Aug 2003 at 13:53.
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Well this: Clearly this rule is unpleasant and unfair, hence the term 'forced'! Perhaps yet another old rule from the old days enforced due to tradition and habit, not logic or science-certainly not today's as humans live with more longevity than ever before!
However, one must acknowledge the social and political aspects of the issue. Senior pilots, often in command capacity, hold a very important job responsible for many lives/voters, whereas doctors for instance are only responsible for one at a time, hence no recurrent test is required due to lack of political importance. Doctors losing their patients on the operating table don't make the 6 o'clock news since they can be investigated and stopped if need be, but an airplane crash will certainly be on the news across the globe. This may explain, not necessarily justify, some of the inequities in recurrency requirements among various professions mentioned above.
To which argument one might say, true, but as long as one passes the medicals, recurrents, emrgency procedures, etc., why not let one continue. God knows there's enough obstacles, why not let the poor pilots be for once!
One can only hope, that this, among other out of date rules, will soon be abolished and the 'one size fit all' approach be replaced with a more sensible one which treats individuals as individuals.
However, one must acknowledge the social and political aspects of the issue. Senior pilots, often in command capacity, hold a very important job responsible for many lives/voters, whereas doctors for instance are only responsible for one at a time, hence no recurrent test is required due to lack of political importance. Doctors losing their patients on the operating table don't make the 6 o'clock news since they can be investigated and stopped if need be, but an airplane crash will certainly be on the news across the globe. This may explain, not necessarily justify, some of the inequities in recurrency requirements among various professions mentioned above.
To which argument one might say, true, but as long as one passes the medicals, recurrents, emrgency procedures, etc., why not let one continue. God knows there's enough obstacles, why not let the poor pilots be for once!
One can only hope, that this, among other out of date rules, will soon be abolished and the 'one size fit all' approach be replaced with a more sensible one which treats individuals as individuals.
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We think the topic is on the right forum. The subject is news and affects each and every Professional pilot. If not now, certainly in the very near future.
PPRuNe has a policy of not plastering the board with repeat topics so we reckon this forum is the best place for it.
The poll consistently shows that over 54% of our fraternity would like to continue flying after 55-60. We will have to wait and see if the EU will make it happen. It will then be interesting to see if the FAA and countries OUTSIDE the EU will then follow.
We think the topic is on the right forum. The subject is news and affects each and every Professional pilot. If not now, certainly in the very near future.
PPRuNe has a policy of not plastering the board with repeat topics so we reckon this forum is the best place for it.
The poll consistently shows that over 54% of our fraternity would like to continue flying after 55-60. We will have to wait and see if the EU will make it happen. It will then be interesting to see if the FAA and countries OUTSIDE the EU will then follow.
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When, and If, the EU fix this issue to the will of the majority of the participants, then the next step will be to force individual unions like the Dutch VNV to recind the rule that requires their pilots to leave at age 56 !
Even the pilots in their regional division with restrictions on their careers and salaries half of what the heavies are getting are forced out at that age.
Cant have any precedents that might have implications on their retirement plans , can we now !
Even the pilots in their regional division with restrictions on their careers and salaries half of what the heavies are getting are forced out at that age.
Cant have any precedents that might have implications on their retirement plans , can we now !
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Most of the youngins I fly with would like the retirement age
raised just before they retire, strange that!
But they definitely don't want it changed until then.
Problem is flying is not a job, it's a way of life.
Few dedicated pilots have much of a life outside flying, in fact
most expat types end up disconnected from their home counties
completely.
So at retirement the dilemma arrives, time to go home!
But, home is where my flying job has been for x years.
Sadly, job = home = life as they know it.
It does'nt matter what age you retire at. Just make some
sensible plans for your future.
Then the transition to leaving flying becomes less painful.
Age gracefully, fly carefully, and walk away from it all when
the time comes.
Personally, I intend to give my last sector to the FO, after all
he might be flying me home as a civilian.
Oh my God, better get that application in for 411A' s outfit.
raised just before they retire, strange that!
But they definitely don't want it changed until then.
Problem is flying is not a job, it's a way of life.
Few dedicated pilots have much of a life outside flying, in fact
most expat types end up disconnected from their home counties
completely.
So at retirement the dilemma arrives, time to go home!
But, home is where my flying job has been for x years.
Sadly, job = home = life as they know it.
It does'nt matter what age you retire at. Just make some
sensible plans for your future.
Then the transition to leaving flying becomes less painful.
Age gracefully, fly carefully, and walk away from it all when
the time comes.
Personally, I intend to give my last sector to the FO, after all
he might be flying me home as a civilian.
Oh my God, better get that application in for 411A' s outfit.
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do pilots fly?
I thought the whole idea of airline flying was to sit and drink coffee thats why the old guys get all the airline jobs because they have drank the coffee for longer thus being able to better predict possible spill scenarios and avoid burns and stains on the white shirts. If there is an emergency situation these days the computer might not let u fly the plane anyway eg Airbus as the Gimli Glider so you might as well have some oldies up front who have enjoyed life and are ready to move on instead of some young cadet who spent all of mummy and daddies money to get into the airlines before 50 scaring everyone on the way to a now enevitable computer controlled unsuccesful landing. 
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I'm not an airline pilot but I am 60. I am a PPL and I still fly. I do not think that my judgement and ability has been in any way impaired by my age.
When I learned to fly my Instructor was in his late 60's and continued to instruct and fly for several years after that. The man oozed practicality and experience.
It is not true to say that a person is incapable of doing a job properly just because they have reached a certain age. Provided you have the real-time experience you are probably all the better for being an older person.
However, as aircraft design and development progresses, automation takes on greater involvement in the operation of commercial aircraft. In the past a pilot was more involved with the minute by minute operation of his aircraft. There was a great deal more "hands on" experience around.
Today, many aircraft fly on auto-pilot from "gear up" to decision height and sometimes touchdown. Computers dictate what one can or cannot do and in some cases (God help us all) over-ride pilot input.
In the event of sudden and catastrophic systems failure, a pilot in his 60's now would probably be able to deal with the emergency. In years to come, when todays younger pilots reach their 60's they may not be able to deal with emergencies with the same gut feeling and real experience because they have spent their lives letting computers do all the work.
So what am I trying to say? I believe that age is not the point here. What matters is "EXPERIENCE" and if you don't have that then join the ever-increasing ranks of inexperienced PHD's that infest our business and industrial world.
When I was in the Royal Navy, real sailors spoke of University Graduate Officers as "being able to give you the cube root of a jam jar but unable to get the top off".
That maxim is more true today than ever.
When I learned to fly my Instructor was in his late 60's and continued to instruct and fly for several years after that. The man oozed practicality and experience.
It is not true to say that a person is incapable of doing a job properly just because they have reached a certain age. Provided you have the real-time experience you are probably all the better for being an older person.
However, as aircraft design and development progresses, automation takes on greater involvement in the operation of commercial aircraft. In the past a pilot was more involved with the minute by minute operation of his aircraft. There was a great deal more "hands on" experience around.
Today, many aircraft fly on auto-pilot from "gear up" to decision height and sometimes touchdown. Computers dictate what one can or cannot do and in some cases (God help us all) over-ride pilot input.
In the event of sudden and catastrophic systems failure, a pilot in his 60's now would probably be able to deal with the emergency. In years to come, when todays younger pilots reach their 60's they may not be able to deal with emergencies with the same gut feeling and real experience because they have spent their lives letting computers do all the work.
So what am I trying to say? I believe that age is not the point here. What matters is "EXPERIENCE" and if you don't have that then join the ever-increasing ranks of inexperienced PHD's that infest our business and industrial world.
When I was in the Royal Navy, real sailors spoke of University Graduate Officers as "being able to give you the cube root of a jam jar but unable to get the top off".
That maxim is more true today than ever.
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This age 60 thing just does not seam to want to go away. With close to 7000 pilots on furlough in the States, airlines with no growth prospects, and the only way to advance up the list is through attrition now is not the time to change the rule. Most pilots that are advocating changing the rule are very senior and have benefitted their whole career from the mandatory retirement rule. Now they want to hang on to that cushy 777 or 747 job just a little longer. Although there is medical evidance to support an increase in the retirement age, one of the great aspects of this job is that you can leave with ful retirement at a reasonable age and go out out and enjoy life before you start falling a part.
From a purely selfish standpoint I have 21 years to go at my airline and the only way for me to advance is through retirement so get out of my seat you old fart! If you still want to fly, rent a Cessna.
From a purely selfish standpoint I have 21 years to go at my airline and the only way for me to advance is through retirement so get out of my seat you old fart! If you still want to fly, rent a Cessna.
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The point that you are missing here Raas767 is that those 'Old Farts", as you choose to call them, started their careers when the retirement age was 65! and well before it was arbitrarily reduced to 60. From your post I get the impression you are talking about pilots who are fortunate to have only one or two employers throughout their career? What about the majority of pilots world wide that have not been so lucky and had to move among several employers just to stay working, often crashing to the bottom of yet another pay scale and having to use accrued pension monies to live on during periods of unemployment?
You young guys in the majors are a really lucky minority, enjoy it while you can!
You young guys in the majors are a really lucky minority, enjoy it while you can!
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RAAS 767
Why don't you go and fly a Cessna..with that attitude, I doubt you'll make left seat! And, if you do, I would like to read your opinion in 21 years time, after maybe having worked for 2 or 3 different company's?
Why don't you go and fly a Cessna..with that attitude, I doubt you'll make left seat! And, if you do, I would like to read your opinion in 21 years time, after maybe having worked for 2 or 3 different company's?