Brit Air aircraft down
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Well if we want to go deeper on the translation issue, here is this one :
If you translate "Go around" in french, word for word, it means
"va faire un tour", which means in english "have a walk"
I can imagine the situation approching the minimums :
"Captain ? Have a walk !"
Just to add a smile in this sad subject.
If you translate "Go around" in french, word for word, it means
"va faire un tour", which means in english "have a walk"
I can imagine the situation approching the minimums :
"Captain ? Have a walk !"
Just to add a smile in this sad subject.
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Crj - crash
I was in France the day of the crash over night and here the story is that the Captain had a heart attack or fainted!!! But if the weather was bad thunderstorms etc., from my professional flying, a good decision would be to divert or do a Cat 3 approach with Auto Trottle. Does the CRJ - 200 have Auto Trottle??
May the Captain RIP, and respects to the family....
May the Captain RIP, and respects to the family....
Good CRJ Survivability
This is the second survivable CRJ accident that I know of, the other being AC in Fredericton where all survived.
Canadair's doing something right
Canadair's doing something right
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PR et al, source of my confusion (not an 'argument' BTW) cleared up:
from http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...ssary/menu.htm
This is what I thought I had heard years ago.
from http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Re...ssary/menu.htm
"Pull up and go around"
An instruction given to the pilot by ATC when, in the controller's judgment,
the aircraft landing procedure cannot safely be continued to touchdown.
Fr: « Remontez et faites un circuit »
An instruction given to the pilot by ATC when, in the controller's judgment,
the aircraft landing procedure cannot safely be continued to touchdown.
Fr: « Remontez et faites un circuit »
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La manière de le dire n'est pas importante!
"Go-around" when it is used and understood, in whatever your native tongue, means precisely that.
None of us needs to re-visit CRM issues on communication, n'est pas? Therefore, the blood lessons of the past have resulted in SOPs.
Rest assured that the good folks flying RJs for Brit Air have credible and professional SOPs that were in fact, in use Sunday evening on the approach into Brest.
A plausible/possible scenario would seem to be unfolding as regards the Captaine/Captain/Kaptan/Pilot/ No. 1/ Commandante, etc. etc. etc. (insert whatever label you wish to use) who may have experienced something of an incapacitating nature, resulting in his inability to control the aeroplane and subsequently evacuate himself from a burning wreck.
So much for the F/O who's responsibility it is in the RJ during an evacuation to climb out of his seat and 'assist' with the evacuation. Are we to now assume he didn't try to help his Captain???
We simply do not know what took place from 1000' and 3nm to impact without corroborative data.
Do we now question the assertiveness of the F/O?
His experience?
His 'panic' factor as he realized things were going desperately wrong?
Folks, relax, we simply don't know yet WHAT HAPPENED!
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Just a comment on CRJ systems. Not all European RJ-100s have the CAT IIIa capability that the Rockwell-Collins (ex-Flight Dynamics) Head Up Guidance System (HGS) confers. In particular, all the original Brit Air aircraft did but, when Air France contracted with them for the Air France Express services, those later aircraft only had full provision for HGS. The system may have been installed later. Note that with this system, all approaches are manually flown without Autothrottle.
If it was Windshear, the extra warning time given by HGS (which will show WS above the usual 1500 ft agl of GPWS) could have been crucial.
All CRJs have demonstrated Autopilot or Flight Director approaches to CAT II limits but not all operators train to those standards.
If it was Windshear, the extra warning time given by HGS (which will show WS above the usual 1500 ft agl of GPWS) could have been crucial.
All CRJs have demonstrated Autopilot or Flight Director approaches to CAT II limits but not all operators train to those standards.
Last edited by ICT_SLB; 28th Jun 2003 at 11:24.
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Accident report is out.
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2003/f-...js030622a.html
They never captured either the localizer or the glideslope because APPR mode was never armed. The captain spent the rest of the approach attempting to capture both with what appears to be complete focus on one at any particular time. Eventually GPWS warnings sounded and were ignored until too late and they crashed during the attempted go-around. The go around was initiated at the decision height, however this was 100' AGL due to not being off course. The aircraft did not pitch up until 4 seconds after thrust application.
The crew were medically fit.
Apparantly on the CRJ, at least this one, the PFD has an artificial horizon on top and an HSI below. The glideslope is beside the Horizon and the localizer is of course part of the HSI. Not a good design in my opinion.
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2003/f-...js030622a.html
They never captured either the localizer or the glideslope because APPR mode was never armed. The captain spent the rest of the approach attempting to capture both with what appears to be complete focus on one at any particular time. Eventually GPWS warnings sounded and were ignored until too late and they crashed during the attempted go-around. The go around was initiated at the decision height, however this was 100' AGL due to not being off course. The aircraft did not pitch up until 4 seconds after thrust application.
The crew were medically fit.
Apparantly on the CRJ, at least this one, the PFD has an artificial horizon on top and an HSI below. The glideslope is beside the Horizon and the localizer is of course part of the HSI. Not a good design in my opinion.
Same system on many other aircraft and it works fine.
Cleared = arm..... ALWAYS.
If you cleared to do something with todays modern machines you had better arm the appropriate mode.
Do that and learn to bring the flight mode annunciators into your scan EVERY time you select a mode and you are well on your way to staying ahead of the plane
In this accident the fact that the controller cleared them unexpectedly should have been negated had they armed the approach. Loc would have captured and then their only task would have been to chase the G/S using V speed. George was apparently flying for them so that should not have been overly taxing. The failure to arm was the big hole in the cheese IMO.
Cleared = arm..... ALWAYS.
If you cleared to do something with todays modern machines you had better arm the appropriate mode.
Do that and learn to bring the flight mode annunciators into your scan EVERY time you select a mode and you are well on your way to staying ahead of the plane
In this accident the fact that the controller cleared them unexpectedly should have been negated had they armed the approach. Loc would have captured and then their only task would have been to chase the G/S using V speed. George was apparently flying for them so that should not have been overly taxing. The failure to arm was the big hole in the cheese IMO.
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Usually, in Europe at least, (and I stand to be corrected because this may have changed in recent times) ATC will issue a clearance to intercept the localizer and report established. If so, the desired mode is NAV. Then once you've called LOC established (LOC 1 GREEN), they will clear you for the appropriate approach. In this case, an ILS. The approach mode gets armed with the clearance, LOC 1 / LOC 2 are captured in GREEN whilst the GS (white) is armed. Upon interception of the GS, the GS changes place in the FMA from an armed mode to a captured mode, which is GS GREEN and away you go.
As for the aircraft not pitching up for 4 seconds, that's not unusual. Pressing TOGA disconnects the AP with the aircraft attitude nose down. The PF has to rotate (3 degrees per second) from approx. 3 degrees nose down to 10 degrees nose up. Roughly 4 seconds of rotation.
As for the LOC/GS indications? It's a Collins installation and is quite similar to the B737NG, B757 and B767 and I 'm sure with other aircraft types as well.
So, it doesn't sound like anything untoward here.
As a TRI, my advise and caution to CRJ crews, once cleared for an ILS approach DO NOT ARM THE APPROACH MODE unless the intercept heading is less than 90 degrees to the final approach course as the APPR mode could capture a false localizer signal or "S" turn it's way along the Localizer. Not exactly comfortable or desired for passenger comfort.
As for the aircraft not pitching up for 4 seconds, that's not unusual. Pressing TOGA disconnects the AP with the aircraft attitude nose down. The PF has to rotate (3 degrees per second) from approx. 3 degrees nose down to 10 degrees nose up. Roughly 4 seconds of rotation.
As for the LOC/GS indications? It's a Collins installation and is quite similar to the B737NG, B757 and B767 and I 'm sure with other aircraft types as well.
So, it doesn't sound like anything untoward here.
As a TRI, my advise and caution to CRJ crews, once cleared for an ILS approach DO NOT ARM THE APPROACH MODE unless the intercept heading is less than 90 degrees to the final approach course as the APPR mode could capture a false localizer signal or "S" turn it's way along the Localizer. Not exactly comfortable or desired for passenger comfort.
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As for the aircraft not pitching up for 4 seconds, that's not unusual. Pressing TOGA disconnects the AP with the aircraft attitude nose down. The PF has to rotate (3 degrees per second) from approx. 3 degrees nose down to 10 degrees nose up. Roughly 4 seconds of rotation.
I'd say it is very unusual. Just after the GPWS announcement of 100 feet, the thrust levers went forward, 4 seconds after the announcement was, and I quote "the first significant upward elevator deflection".
It didn't help that they were 17 knots below Vref at the time.
I would say what is usual is a simultaneous increase in thrust and upward elevator deflection.
I'd say it is very unusual. Just after the GPWS announcement of 100 feet, the thrust levers went forward, 4 seconds after the announcement was, and I quote "the first significant upward elevator deflection".
It didn't help that they were 17 knots below Vref at the time.
I would say what is usual is a simultaneous increase in thrust and upward elevator deflection.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Willie Everlearn,
In the UK, that appears to be standard practise - but in the rest of Europe (or should I say: ...in Europe?) you are cleared the approach, end of story.
Cuts down on the radio talk & keeps it nice & simple.
But yes - the lack of armed APCH or VOR/LOC mode does seem to be the first hole in the cheese
Empty
In the UK, that appears to be standard practise - but in the rest of Europe (or should I say: ...in Europe?) you are cleared the approach, end of story.
Cuts down on the radio talk & keeps it nice & simple.
But yes - the lack of armed APCH or VOR/LOC mode does seem to be the first hole in the cheese
Empty
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In the UK, that appears to be standard practise - but in the rest of Europe (or should I say: ...in Europe?) you are cleared the approach, end of story.
Can be very frustrating, especially at LHR when you are vectored for a quasi simultaneous intercept, and then cannot get a word in egdeways on the R/T in time to arm G/S mode before glide comes in.
The subtle danger here is the mixture of automatics and manual flying that occurs when you have a sophisticated autopilot and FD but lack of autothrottle. Of course many aircraft are like that - the 737-200 for example. But as we have seen in this accident it is all too easy to concentrate on monitoring the flight instruments (PFD if you will) and inadvertently allowing speed excursions to go unnoticed until too late.
Boeing make a valid point in their NG FCTM that to simplify thrust setting procedures, autothrottle use is recommended during take off and climb in either automatic or manual flight. During all other phases of flight, autothrottle use is recommended only when the autopilot is engaged.
In the CRJ accident it is clear that the pilot's scan fell down and he paid insufficient attention to the thrust settings required for a stable approach. In this case, it might have been better to hand fly the ILS using FD info (nothing wrong with that providing you are competent at hand flying). Scan rate will increase if hand flying and speed excursions more quickly corrected.
Combining manual (thrust levers) with autopilot is not a good idea. Funnily enough only the other day I saw a barrel roll for fun in the simulator where the pilot left the autothrottle engaged throughout the manoeuvre in. As he dived to pick up speed (250 knots MCP) the throttles reduced to idle to maintain 250 knots then upside down the throttles went up to maintain speed then came back again to idle in the final roll out from the dive. It was a classic case of half manual - half automatics, and didn't look pretty.
Boeing make a valid point in their NG FCTM that to simplify thrust setting procedures, autothrottle use is recommended during take off and climb in either automatic or manual flight. During all other phases of flight, autothrottle use is recommended only when the autopilot is engaged.
In the CRJ accident it is clear that the pilot's scan fell down and he paid insufficient attention to the thrust settings required for a stable approach. In this case, it might have been better to hand fly the ILS using FD info (nothing wrong with that providing you are competent at hand flying). Scan rate will increase if hand flying and speed excursions more quickly corrected.
Combining manual (thrust levers) with autopilot is not a good idea. Funnily enough only the other day I saw a barrel roll for fun in the simulator where the pilot left the autothrottle engaged throughout the manoeuvre in. As he dived to pick up speed (250 knots MCP) the throttles reduced to idle to maintain 250 knots then upside down the throttles went up to maintain speed then came back again to idle in the final roll out from the dive. It was a classic case of half manual - half automatics, and didn't look pretty.
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there have been many times in which I have been instructed by ATC to intercept the localizer yet not been cleared for the ILS approach.
There are lots of seperation standards which may have been the cause of this. But tis not uncommon here in the states.
in this situation you maintain the last assigned altitude. AS that damn gs needle comes alive you have to bug the controller because he may have forgotten!
j
There are lots of seperation standards which may have been the cause of this. But tis not uncommon here in the states.
in this situation you maintain the last assigned altitude. AS that damn gs needle comes alive you have to bug the controller because he may have forgotten!
j
