SE England - new mega-airport required soon!!
Guest
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Maybe the solution is joint mil/civil airfields? In my time flying those VC10s that are clogging up the pans at Brize Norton I thought that the concept seemed to work well enough at places such as Honolulu Intl/Hickham AFB and Franfurt/Rheinmain.
Brize has a great 10,000ft runway and is geared up to handling big aircraft (including 747 size) and could easily fit a number of civil aircraft in alongside the 20 or so VC10s, handful of Tristars and 4 C17s.
Thye road links are good - west london is less than 1 hour by A407M40 and the airport express coaches already go to Oxford, so a link to Brize is no trouble. Rail is poor though - the branch line shut down 25 years ago and the station is now an industrial estate.
Surely this would provide cheap international airport access for the airlines and a revenue boost for the RAF.
Brize has a great 10,000ft runway and is geared up to handling big aircraft (including 747 size) and could easily fit a number of civil aircraft in alongside the 20 or so VC10s, handful of Tristars and 4 C17s.
Thye road links are good - west london is less than 1 hour by A407M40 and the airport express coaches already go to Oxford, so a link to Brize is no trouble. Rail is poor though - the branch line shut down 25 years ago and the station is now an industrial estate.
Surely this would provide cheap international airport access for the airlines and a revenue boost for the RAF.
Guest
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Shame really. Just a short walk from my house is an old playing field, a recently demolished 1960's council towerblock, a school and some new houses. All that remains is a bit of apron from what was more commonly known as Croydon airport.
I would have no problem if that place was tarmacced over again and opened to traffic.
I would have no problem if that place was tarmacced over again and opened to traffic.
Guest
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Reading so many posts lamenting the lack of new runway capacity is interesting but people don't seem to fully realize just how negative is the official UK attitude to anything concerning aviation. Everyone here seems to hate having aircraft anywhere near them, but the same people are the ones who complain if their tickets to Benidorm cost too much, or the airport is too far away-sickening!
Only this year another airport, it's 6000' runway ideal for business and GA operations and only 25 miles from London, was ripped up for ever-Hatfield.
There is a complete lack of vision from our so called planners-"low compression side-valve people" to a man, whether it be concerning road, rail, or air. With the level of incompetence allied to corrupt practices present, we can be sure that if another airport in the south East is ever built, it will cause maximum devastation of the environment, etc.etc. as in the meantime more and more existing runways are ripped up for hardcore and for housing estates.
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Only this year another airport, it's 6000' runway ideal for business and GA operations and only 25 miles from London, was ripped up for ever-Hatfield.
There is a complete lack of vision from our so called planners-"low compression side-valve people" to a man, whether it be concerning road, rail, or air. With the level of incompetence allied to corrupt practices present, we can be sure that if another airport in the south East is ever built, it will cause maximum devastation of the environment, etc.etc. as in the meantime more and more existing runways are ripped up for hardcore and for housing estates.
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Guest
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aircam, Hatfield did open as a business/GA airfield, it never made any money!.
All the mil sites are in the wrong place, even Greenham was, the development has to cater for MILLIONS of pax and TENS of thousands of flights every year. Whilst the runways might be long enough at Lyneham and Brize, are the local councils going to allow the building of new towns in those areas to house the thousands of workers required to operate a new airport?, I think it unlikely. Mixing the mil and civil traffic would be a nightmare, commercial traffic trying to make ATC slots and mil wanting to do circuits and bumps, not a very productive mix for either traffic type.
Most of the pax for the new airport/runway are originating from the southern home counties, greater London, and London itself, therefore driving/travelling past Heathrow, Gatwick, and Stansted to get to Wilts or Oxon doesn't make much sense in either Commercial or Environmental terms.
All the mil sites are in the wrong place, even Greenham was, the development has to cater for MILLIONS of pax and TENS of thousands of flights every year. Whilst the runways might be long enough at Lyneham and Brize, are the local councils going to allow the building of new towns in those areas to house the thousands of workers required to operate a new airport?, I think it unlikely. Mixing the mil and civil traffic would be a nightmare, commercial traffic trying to make ATC slots and mil wanting to do circuits and bumps, not a very productive mix for either traffic type.
Most of the pax for the new airport/runway are originating from the southern home counties, greater London, and London itself, therefore driving/travelling past Heathrow, Gatwick, and Stansted to get to Wilts or Oxon doesn't make much sense in either Commercial or Environmental terms.
Guest
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jumpseater, read this link. Paul Wesson of Caterton (Brize Norton) has access to County Planning information; he's on the council!. I don't think you should discount the military bases that easily
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/001658.html
Guest
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Am I missing something?
By making better use of your local airport you have solved the SE
congestion problem. Well over half the passengers travelling through the
two main London Airports originate from outside London and the immediate
south-east. Why must Scottish residents have to travel down to London?
What is wrong with making more use of other EXISTING airports in the UK?
Glasgow/Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester/Liverpool,
Birmingham/EMA/Coventry, Bristol/Cardiff, and yes, even Exeter, Norwich,
Bournemouth/Southampton and the like.
By making better use of your local airport you have solved the SE
congestion problem. Well over half the passengers travelling through the
two main London Airports originate from outside London and the immediate
south-east. Why must Scottish residents have to travel down to London?
What is wrong with making more use of other EXISTING airports in the UK?
Glasgow/Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester/Liverpool,
Birmingham/EMA/Coventry, Bristol/Cardiff, and yes, even Exeter, Norwich,
Bournemouth/Southampton and the like.
Guest
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I know most people on this site hate bunny-huggers/Swampy and their ilk, but does it ever occur to those who want rapid expansion of our mass transport systems that we are taking our species down the trash chute to extinction if we go on like this?
You can flame away at me as much as you like, but it wont change the fact that the atmosphere is deteriorating rapidly. Global warming is real. It is accelerating faster than we had anticipated. Recent events in Texas (37 inches in 4 days) are a hint of what is waiting for us.
People now fly for the most fatuous reasons. My sister and brother-in-law have flown to New York three times in the last year to go shopping. They stay for 24 hours, and usually buy the same sort of cr*p you can get at Brent Cross. Also during the past year, the 4 secretaries in my office have holidayed in Vietnam, China, Kenya, Thailand, Florida, and California. Yesterday we had a visiting scientist fly over from Wisconsin to give a 45 minute talk which was attended by 6 people, one of whom fell asleep.
Does anyone on Pprune ever think of the tons of combustion products that they are injecting into the upper atmosphere every day of their working week? Why are you all so keen to increase this activity? Can't any of you think beyond the end of the month? We are almost certainly the last humans who will get to enjoy the earth as it now is.
Guest
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Ah there is one your all forgetting, the old RAE Thurleigh site, 2 runways inc. 1 11,000 footer. Postioned convieniently between the M1, & A1 and only about the a mile from the Midland Mainline with direct connections to LTN LGW, and "The City". Just perfect for the job present use - a car park.
So here we are with too many cars that can't be sold, sat blocking one of the most valuable resourses in the SE (a decent runway) meanwhile we spend our time making pretty circles in the sky above Biggin, Lambourn and Brookmans Park, ah you know it makes sense!
Flat Cap
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Hear all - say nowt
Sup all - pay nowt
Never do owt for nowt
So here we are with too many cars that can't be sold, sat blocking one of the most valuable resourses in the SE (a decent runway) meanwhile we spend our time making pretty circles in the sky above Biggin, Lambourn and Brookmans Park, ah you know it makes sense!
Flat Cap
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Hear all - say nowt
Sup all - pay nowt
Never do owt for nowt
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think that Rockwell has got it right.
If only the airports at the various parts of the UK were properly utilised the nightmare of the South East would be solved.
As it is, people travelling from anywhere apart from the South East on long haul flights generally have to go to the South East first. Increasingly and understandably they are choosing to make their connections elsewhere in Europe.
British aviation beware, there is no quick fix for the South East's problems, if you don't start to look after the customers elsewhere in Britain the future will be bleak as their business goes to airlines in other parts of Europe.
If only the airports at the various parts of the UK were properly utilised the nightmare of the South East would be solved.
As it is, people travelling from anywhere apart from the South East on long haul flights generally have to go to the South East first. Increasingly and understandably they are choosing to make their connections elsewhere in Europe.
British aviation beware, there is no quick fix for the South East's problems, if you don't start to look after the customers elsewhere in Britain the future will be bleak as their business goes to airlines in other parts of Europe.
Guest
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I don't know if this has been covered yet but in 1970 we started building one near southend on Maplin
Sands
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/C...3587%2C00.html
This article talks about the politics surrounding Stansted and Maplin latter to be known as Rising Bung Island to the Yotties.
Or Birdsh!t Island to the locals...
Sands
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/C...3587%2C00.html
This article talks about the politics surrounding Stansted and Maplin latter to be known as Rising Bung Island to the Yotties.
Or Birdsh!t Island to the locals...
Guest
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Seems we are avoiding the main question here - why do we need to build the biggest/busiest/funkiest airport in the Uk? We have one of the highest population densities in europe (especially if you take into account the fact that to be viable it would have to be in the overcrowded SE), so surely it makes sense to simply build the facilities where the room is. So what if we fly our long haul out of CDG or FRA?
We dont make ships any more cos others can do it cheaper, we dont mine coal cos open casts in Aussie and S America are far cheaper, we shouldnt be trying to compete with the world grain price cos we will destry our countryside by turning it into those dreadful prairies, so why should we blight our lives even more with a huge new airport? We should compete in areas where we can compete - services, finance, etc etc and not waste time and money in areas where we cant.
Schipol can build into the sea, CDG can expand cos they dont have the planning processes we (rightly) have in this country, so let them. Given the choice as a pax, would you want to transfer at LHR? We have to learn that you dont have to have the biggest product to compete, after all, every single other country in the world has a less busy international airport than LHR and it doesnt seem to do them any harm to concentrate on customer service rather than just size.
Just my £0.02
We dont make ships any more cos others can do it cheaper, we dont mine coal cos open casts in Aussie and S America are far cheaper, we shouldnt be trying to compete with the world grain price cos we will destry our countryside by turning it into those dreadful prairies, so why should we blight our lives even more with a huge new airport? We should compete in areas where we can compete - services, finance, etc etc and not waste time and money in areas where we cant.
Schipol can build into the sea, CDG can expand cos they dont have the planning processes we (rightly) have in this country, so let them. Given the choice as a pax, would you want to transfer at LHR? We have to learn that you dont have to have the biggest product to compete, after all, every single other country in the world has a less busy international airport than LHR and it doesnt seem to do them any harm to concentrate on customer service rather than just size.
Just my £0.02
Guest
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Satco, I'd previously seen Paul Wesson's comments re Brize, and I don't doubt that the military airfields could handle some traffic, but I feel it would always be a relatively small amount. The proposed growth does mean literally Millions of pax, and having lived in Oxfordshire for a while, I seriously doubt whether the good people of oxfordshire (Sting included?), are prepared to accept the environmental consequences of that size of development.
Flat cap I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Thurleigh, and again the environmental and economic cost of generating the infrastructure to meet the demand at that location, is in my opinion too high. I believe in the Beds county structure plan that all civil airport development should be concentrated on Luton and Stansted, and the Bedford ring road passes to the south of the town.
Someone has already asked the first question that the politicians and our industry, need to answer, and that is should GBPLC meet this proposed demand? If so why? and if not why?.
Answers in crayon and no joined up writing to Mr J. Prescott, Hull.
Flat cap I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Thurleigh, and again the environmental and economic cost of generating the infrastructure to meet the demand at that location, is in my opinion too high. I believe in the Beds county structure plan that all civil airport development should be concentrated on Luton and Stansted, and the Bedford ring road passes to the south of the town.
Someone has already asked the first question that the politicians and our industry, need to answer, and that is should GBPLC meet this proposed demand? If so why? and if not why?.
Answers in crayon and no joined up writing to Mr J. Prescott, Hull.
Guest
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re jumpseaters earlier post in which you said that Hatfield never made any money as a bizjet airport-that can be easily explained-the rent charged for the executive jet Centre by the lands owners was astronomic,(so I have been told by someone who worked there) making any commercial aviation activity unviable. Given owners more sympathetic to aviation development, Hatfield would have prospered as a Biz and GA airfield, plus industrial park (not warehousing, as is the new use)in the process relieving Luton and Stansted of that type of traffic. Look at the tarmac of Luton now and you see a LOT of bizjets-so the demand is there.Hatfield sic transit gloria!
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Guest
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If there is so much opposition to extra runways, try this one. Dig a large ditch at LGW and fill it full of water. Then use it to launch flying boats.(It doesn't count in the definition of a runway). Then you fill it full of concrete , coat it with tarmac, problem solved.
Alternatively you tell the protestors that you will close LGW at night, but you need another runway to cope with the traffic during the day.
Pigs fuelled and ready to fly!
Alternatively you tell the protestors that you will close LGW at night, but you need another runway to cope with the traffic during the day.
Pigs fuelled and ready to fly!
Guest
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Everyone...you are missing the point here.BAA has under invested in the OPERATION of their airports since they lost the duty free revenue. I'm a Tory through and through but question that BAA in hind sight should have been privatised.They put their money into RETAIL which is where they get the biggest return for their investment.They are always playing catchup with the operational areas because they can earn more from retail.And what are we the airlines left with? Dark,dingy,overcrowded filthy shopping centres that are a DISGRACE to this country.Again the travelling public are playing second fiddle to those on the continent. Then they have the audacity to publish high jetway usage.The airlines pay a lot of money to tow aircraft on and off gates so that BAA can stand up and proudly admit 96% pier service in terminal A,B or C.Its either a tow or a two mile bus ride. Disgraceful.Three years ago Janis Kong the current MD of GAL told the airlines three years ago to start bringing in bigger airplanes. Has GAL caught up with them.NO they havent and any future development is heavy on smaller stands not larger.
So come on TWO JAGS and the rest of you, pull your finger out before we become the laughing stock of the aviation world.
EVERY airport I go to is cleaner,has more light and is a nice experience. A BAA airport is sheer bloody hassle from start to finish.
Feel better now..............and being Indiana Jones, I've been to a few airports around the world I can tell you!
So come on TWO JAGS and the rest of you, pull your finger out before we become the laughing stock of the aviation world.
EVERY airport I go to is cleaner,has more light and is a nice experience. A BAA airport is sheer bloody hassle from start to finish.
Feel better now..............and being Indiana Jones, I've been to a few airports around the world I can tell you!
Guest
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Manston has been briefly metioned here. Manston was a large military base which has been sold to 'Wiggins Group' and is now officially named LONDON MANSTON. Large developments are already underway. It is intended that it will be the airport to serve UK and the continent. I am surpised that Manston's developments and proposed future is not alrady a featured on Pprune !