AC Pilots may be getting another big hit

[CDNAirbus]

I heard just now that the keller award will be date of hire and RCA pilots 1988 date of hire. (this is still the original CAIL/AC merger!!!)

This is absurd. I will end up flying an RJ! for 16% less then the current guys do it. Is there anything else I could possibly give up? I am voting 'NO' on the tentative contract, if this is the case.

Time to stand up for ourselves.

-Airbusboy.....for now.

[bluemic]

CDNAirbus,

You sound awfully familiar to a certain "JudgeHomer" over at:

http://www.aeforum.net/bbs/index.asp?forum=1

Rather than cutting off your nose, etc, why not wait until you see the actual goods?

mic

[CDNAirbus]

It will be a little to late then, dont ya think?

But wait, your going to win HUGE if its a DOH list.

Did you lose anything with the current list? I dont think so. (Don't give me the "I'll never fly a 747 now, or my Captain is younger than me, or even the guy one senior to me is 10 years younger".

The more I re-read these 'arguements' from ALPA, the more infuriated I get.

[Trentguy]

It's sad to see that thousands and thousands of people's lives lie in waiting for the outcome of this...

MR. ACA pilot, don't forget that many others will lose their jobs too (as a result of the seniority list megers) with most likely more time under their belts with ACA than you.

Pilots need to look at the big picture here. Its not just your job in jeapordy, its the mech that fixes your plane, the groomer who cleans, the catering guy, the fueler, the ticket agent, the taxi driver etc.....

I think if ACA goes down because of Pilot's selfish wants, the Pilot as a profession will lose the credibility and respect it has gained over many decades. I can see little old ladies slapping their captain on the face saying "shame on you!"......

TG

[ex330]

Trentguy,

"the Pilot as a profession will lose the credibility and respect it has gained over many decades"

CANADIAN AVIATION HAS BEEN THE LEADER IN MAKING THIS PROFESSION A JOKE. When will canadian pilots wake up to this fact. I am not going to take sides in this matter, however, the fact remains that the ACR pilots have seen a crack in the window to AC, something they have been trying to do for years and in the process bringing the profession down even further by low-balling their fellow pilots. I do not work for AC and have a few words for their pilots too.

ACR pilots have done what many pilots have done in the past in Canada and that is to lower their price just so they can say they now fly bigger and faster equipment. AC management have for years tried to undermine the pilots in their organisation with very little success. But they just had to let the pilot (professionals) community do that for them. In times of crisis, i agree that everyone has to pull together and work to solve the problem, but stabbing each other in the back to think it will get you ahead in your career, well, i don't think that professionals parttake in such acts.

To all AC pilots,

Welcome to the real world, Your company has never in it's history made "AN OPERATING PROFIT". Read that carefully, Your company has sold assests to show a profit at the end of several quarters in the business year. They have never managed their company well enough to show that it can be run as a business should be, making a profit by doing the job you do. Even with its attempts to undermine smaller competitors by operating companies( ZIP, TANGO.....etc) at a loss in order create a 100% monoply from a 95 % monoply.

The current restructure is nothing short of a joke!!!!. Mr. milty or should i say uncle milty, has implemented a business plan that will create further debt and make any restart impossible due to the lack confidence creditors have accumulated in the last 15 years.

Well, Ladies and Gentlemen, i finally welcome you to the real world. It's not all roses after all.

Ex330

[Mattuk]

ex330

ex330 aka "morpheus" sorry, needed to say that!

[ex330]

Mattuk,

I am afraid your wrong, But once again a pilot shows his colours. Rather than putting something intelligent you try to stab someone in the back. I guess things will never change. You guys are pathetic!!!!.

[Mattuk]

ex330

wow, easy!! 1) i'm not a pilot, I am hoping to start training soon. 2) you've got me all wrong, I'm afraid I wasn't trying to add any intelligence to this post, just saw what you said about the "real world", put it with the matrix and hey presto! Sorry if you thought otherwise, just trying to show how immature us 18 year olds are!!

Regards

Matt

[WJ700]

CDN Airbus

Why shoot yourself in the foot. Whats wrong with flying an RJ ? Whats wrong with a 16% paycut to save your sorry arse for another 6-12 mos. Get with the program.....

[winston the 11]

To CDN AIRBUS
So let's see here, you would rather see the company
go down the drain, and you and 3000 pilots out of
a job rather than take a pay cut?
How does NO PAY, SOUND?!!!!
Live to fight another day!!!! People will retire, die
or whatever and you will climb back up that pole.
If not, then just quit, but don't encourage everyone
to take the company down because you are ticked
off.
Winston

[Rollingthunder]

Some of you have the right idea, especially a couple of the new members including a bloke from Westjet. Something is always better than nothing. Get it sorted for survival and work on restructuring (slash and burn, slice and dice) management, if necessary, later on. Too many jobs, too many Canadians depend on the carrier. Perhaps in the future some other carrier(s) will be able to carry the system load but there isn't one now.

[Trentguy]

Yes, in Canada the aviation scene is sad, where one guy would sell his own mother to get your job, but things aren't gonna change anytime soon.

With the average joe who frequents Costco, big outlet malls, online shopping and Dollarama, its all about getting the best price. That trickles up the revenue stream to companies like ACA where overhead (like Pilots) is too high priced to support the new average joe price-mind-set.

Your WJ jockies are not making even close to what you guys at ACA are making. Like everyone else is saying, some is better than none....And the rest of the WJ team aren't doing much better. But for them money isn't everything. People I've talked to at WJ are generally happier with their job than people at ACA. Its a team effort over there, devoid of the 'holier than thou' attitude.

Bottom line if ACA tanks because of the pilots rejecting the conditions negotiated by their union leadership, then ALL PILOTS IN CANADA risk to be permanently stereo typed as greedy and self serving...

[Flytdeck]

Where is this rejecting the Tentative Agreement because of the seniority arbitration come from???? The two are not connected, and most pilots are intelligent enough to realise that:

• The seniority arbitration, like Mitchnik, Lorden, and other court decisions, mean absolutely nothing until the process is finished. There is no reason to take this piece of legal custard into consideration as it only means something if there is no longer an airline (though there will be nothing to apply it to). The seniority issue will live on as long as the Airline lives on. Eventually, the process will terminate with a list that we will have to adopt. At THAT point we can have our tantrum(s).
• Sometimes, in life, you have to take two steps back before forward progress can continue. This is not unusual, nor is it embarrassing. This is life; get on with it. We have a TA that removes a portion of our remuneration and impacts on our lifestyle. We retain the safety items we have negotiated over the years with little deterioration. If you absolutely can’t live with this TA, you should probably seek employment elsewhere.
• Primary concern should be targeted toward the lads being laid off. Every effort should be made to assist with the company’s health to shorten the period to their recall. This includes vigorous defence of the Scope agreement in court and through arbitration otherwise; this could be an extended period of unemployment for our junior members.
• Positive attitude. There are those taking pot-shots at the AC pilots. Who really gives a finger? They have their lives, we have ours and we have every right to mess it up if we really want to. I hope we don’t. I applaud the employees working at those establishments that are doing well and wish them every success. They work hard and should be rightfully proud of their accomplishments. On the other hand, don’t let those few sad souls, those little people who feel bigger by regurgitating our misfortune have any impact on your focus on our objectives.

Personally, I have been very happy working for Air Canada for over 28 years and feel more sad than mad, more determined than frustrated. I have been through bad times before (though admittedly, this is the worst yet), but have always found that shortly after the darkest of periods, we find ourselves short of pilots and the Company screaming for the absolute necessity for us to extend our Designated Monthly Maximum times. Focus on survival, ignore the jabbering nabobs of negativism, and keep in mind as a previous poster said; “We shall live to fight another day”.

[skidcanuck]

Air Canada plans to lay off 317 pilots
Most aircraft types to be cut, 747s grounded.


CP


Saturday, June 14, 2003
ADVERTISEMENT


Air Canada said yesterday it plans to lay off 317 pilots, reduce almost all of its aircraft types and ground its six Boeing 747s starting Aug. 1.

Of the pilots who will get pink slips over the next six months, 184 are based in Toronto. Sixty-one are in Vancouver, 45 in Montreal and 27 in Winnipeg.

The layoffs are to take place at a rate of 40 to 60 a month under a tentative agreement providing for $250 million a year worth of layoffs, work rule changes and other concessions the 3,100

pilots will vote on starting Friday.

"This becomes just like musical chairs now, with people getting bumped all the way down," said a senior pilot who could face a downgrade.

Now that all the 747s are being grounded, most of those pilots will probably be bumped down to Airbus A340s - requiring more than two months of costly retraining.

That, in turn, means some A340 pilots will be bumped down, also needing new training, with the bumping continuing through to pilots of small regional jets.

The so-called bid list unveiled yesterday details which pilots are now surplus. But many of those names could change in the coming weeks when federal labour arbitrator Brian Keller is expected to release a ruling on the controversial issue of how the seniority lists of Air Canada and the former Canadian Airlines should be merged.

Keller's ruling was delayed last week after union officials representing Air Canada pilots walked out of meetings with him over concerns his award would favour pilots from the former Canadian Airlines, which was taken over by Air Canada in 2000.

In the meantime, the airline is declaring which pilots are surplus based on a contentious earlier ruling by arbitrator Morton Mitchnick the Canadian pilots claim cost them an average of 9.5 years of seniority and left them severely disadvantaged.

© Copyright 2003 Montreal Gazette

A useful link for many, possibly......


http://careers.homedepot.com/

[Flytdeck]

The layoffs have been announced, and earlier today the Keller decision was released. It appears the original Air Canada pilots will be taking a double hit as both events have a negative effect on individual seniority. This is a tough pill to swallow, but as I mentioned previously, this piece of judicial Jello will be put to further tests in court and with the Canadian Industrial Relation Board to see if it passes the “wriggle” test (will it stay cohesive under stress?) Initial perception says it does not does NOT fill up the requirements and there is always room for more legal elocution.

A novel concept in the award is the “virtual” reinstatement rights. Though the document contains a “no bump, no flush” clause due to the realignment of seniority generated by the list, it does not appear to prevent the pilots who fall to a lower position due to the current bid reduction any opportunity to regain their status. But, this is just one, small blemish in an otherwise gelatinous document.

Possibly the Air Canada pilot group is getting their just desserts, but I suspect this decision will provide a main course feast for further tracks of á la carte courtroom drama.

[B767300ER]

It is completely unfair to disadvantage one group and reward another, especially in this case. CP pilots deserved SOMETHING for what their company brought to AC, and being stapled below new-hire AC RJ pilots is'nt right.

I'm sorry for the current AC troubles, and hope they do recall soon.

Now, if only TWA pilots could get the same fair treatment in the US after AA pilots stole their seniority/seats/jobs!!!

[ex330]

B767300er,

I am sorry to say this, but once again another pilot shows his lack of professionalism. In both cases, ie TWA and Canadian airlines, the companies were on the verge of shutting their doors. This would then mean that employees at those companies, regardless of their experience, would have to look for new jobs. So that would mean, a 767 300 captain, who accepted at Air Canada or American Airlines would have to fly the smallest aircraft in that airlines fleet in the right hand seat.

So in the case of these poorly run airlines being bought by their competitors, logic would indicate that someone who was on the verge of being unemployed would be grateful of having a job. But alas we are pilots and common sence will never prevail.

Air Canada has no one else to blame but themselves for the financial problems that they face. However, when they were forced to acquire Canadian Airlines by the Canadian Government, they absorbed the debt that Canadian Airlines had accumulated over it's mismanaged years. So did they or TWA for that matter bring more good then bad???. In the curent financial papers at American and Air Canada it would indicate more harm has come about from aquiring the troubled airlines.

Human nature is to get everything that you possibly can from any situation, but the award handed out by Mr. Keller lacks intelligent thinking. In fact, i believe it is more politics then logical decision making.

The Canadian Airlines employees were allowed to keep working and retain very good seniority considering the postition they were in before Air Canada acquired them. However, the lack of professionalism by the Canadian Airlines pilot group, may lead to both group of pilots looking for work.

As i have said before, This industry lacks professionalism. People think more with their egos then there brains. Pilots keep showing how they should not be treated like professionals but just as a ramp handler. And before you all start replying to my last statement. I believe sitting in the front of a multi million dollar machine requires a little bit more effort than in becoming a ramp handler.

Pilots have always stabbed each other in the back and management relys on that to acquire more consessions from the group as a whole. I wish all Air Canada pilots the best of luck in the matter of their sniority. As for the companies troubles, well they have no one to blame but themselves.

EX330

[Tan]

Air Canada Pilots Ask CIRB Chair Lordon For Emergency Hearing
Citing the "harsh and punitive impacts" of a just-released arbitration award, the Air Canada Pilots Association is making an urgent appeal for an emergency Canadian Industrial Relations Board hearing.

In a letter to Paul Lordon, Chair of the CIRB, from ACPA legal counsel Steve Waller, the Air Canada pilots detail the profound consequences of the award issued June 16, 2003, by arbitrator Brian Keller. The Keller decision deals with the Air Canada seniority lists that resulted from the merger of Air Canada and Canadian Airlines in January 2000.

Waller writes, "To a degree that is shocking, the Keller award has made all but a few original Air Canada pilots losers, and all but a few former Canadian pilots huge winners." He provides detailed examples of the impact on Air Canada pilots who will face pay cuts of thousands of dollars and have their careers stalled because of inequities resulting from the Keller award.

Waller points out that in a previous CIRB decision (#183) on the merged seniority lists, Mr. Lordon said that the Keller arbitration must "be consistent with the principles set out" in that decision, and that "any settlement will be subject to Board review." It is ACPA's position that the Keller decision ignores or violates the principles of Decision 183.

ACPA is asking Mr. Lordon for an urgent hearing because of upcoming events related to the financial situation of Air Canada.

[B767300ER]

Ex330, I must say, if you want to talk of 'lack of professionalism', you need not look past your own mirror. If you call what AC did to CP and what AA did to TWA professional, fair, equitable or even CIVIL, then you are due a reality check when it comes to professionalism.

The financial condition of a company has NOTHING to do with integrating its employees, according to dozens of arbitrator rulings. If AC management (and AA's) wanted to avoid this seniority integration problem, they could have waited until CP or TWA shut down, THEN bought the assets with no regard to employee obligations. Butm for whatever reason, AC and AA decided to buy WHOLE AIRLINES, employees and all, and so, they must be integrated. The method used both by ACPA and APA were NOT fair, equitable or 'professional' by any means. I'll say again, to DISadvantage one pilot group and elevate another is NOT right. If you think AC pilots have a claim to all CP routes, aircraft, domiciles and seats, you're WRONG. If you think only CP pilots should be laid-off in the upcoming staff reductions, you're WRONG. And lastly, if YOU think you have a sense of entitlement because AC bought CP, and your career is more important or more deserving than theirs, you're WRONG.

Talk about 'back-stabbing', any pilot group willing to gain an unfair advantage at the expense of others' careers, certainly fits that description. Since when is it the pilot's fault when management makes poor decisions and votes to be acquired/merged? Why should pilots lose their jobs/careers when managers get golden parachutes and start over at higher pay and status elsewhere?

I'm very familiar with AC/CP and their unfortunate situation. Their dilemma, like TWA/AA's, is about one thing.......GREED.

[ex330]

B767300er,

Laughable is the only term i can use to describe your reasoning to dismiss my post. Your words were full of anger and not full of intelligent thought. Let me start off by stating, i do not work for AC or AA. So what i would have to benefit from my words, well i hope that if my company were ever in the same position then i would like sanity to prevail.

If you would have done your home work sir, you would have realised that AC had no requiement to purchase Canadian Airlines. The whole procedure was started due to statements made by the CEO of Canadian asking for help from the government and courting potential investors.

In stepped Mr Shwartz of Onxy Crop who made an offer for Canadian. If you do you home work on him, you will find that he acquires companies and sells their assets to make a profit. Having friends in the government helped him also put in an offer for AC adding that if he could not acquire both that the deal would not be worth the effort. What would that say to you about the worth of Canadian Airlines as compared to AC. He want the AC name to sell his goods to make more money. He had no use for the debt that Canadian airlines had acquired. Ii have a degree in business and had the unfurtnate pleasure o seeing the financial state of Canadian a week away from closing it's doors, YES A WEEK AWAY FROM CLOSING IT"S DOORS. In order to avoid take over from Onxy Crop AC had to counter bid the offer made on Canadian.

I am finding myself here explaining something that i should not have too. Bottom line B767300ER, AC lost more than they gained for their survival. So now going back to the employees of AC. I would be pissed off if group of individuals from another company, who were on the verge on unemployment i might add, came into my organisation and ask to be treated better than everyone else. IN FACT, in the business world that can only happen if hostle take over has been completed. With he aquiring company firing employees from the poorer company.

YOUR ARGUEMENT IS POOR MY FRIEND and as i said it is full of anger. If you were sitting at AC right now with 20 years seniority and a CA airline pilot with 20 years and one day seniority at his last company was now ahead of you after Keller's madness, you would be even more furious with him than you ar with me unlike any onther human.

LET ME TELL YOU A FACT. When Canadian airlines management asked their pilot group to make concessions during their financial troubles, the answer was NO. They did not help to try to avoid the mess they ended up in. AC pilots in the early 90's were asked the same of their management and they contributed. SO when an AC employee makes consessions in order to watch his hard work be rewarded to someone else i think that is unfair.

CANADIAN AIRLINES EMPLOYEES ARE LUCKY TO HAVE A JOB!!!!!. Think about that. then maybe you might be able to make informative post on this forum rather than one that attacks individuals. Attacking me, well if that is how you communicate with people then you first statement about me might well be suited to you sir.

EX330