Swiss Pilots' Union Reps Sacked?
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Maybe some of you do not know ? A financial manager of Swiss was threatened and he had to depart out of his work. Why?? He pointed out that some Airbusses had to be grounded to make things work financially in the company, and Aeropers was not happy to have their pilots grounded, so guess what........????
It is not time for even managers to get a "bonus", which was the case here AND HR department explained why it was justified!!!!
When this ship sinks, blame the men who steer it like the Titanic, they think it is unsinkable.
"Why don´t you blame Aeropers for not making any sacrifices to rescue Swiss ?"
A nice German word to this : ekelhaft/ Disgusting!!!!
It is not time for even managers to get a "bonus", which was the case here AND HR department explained why it was justified!!!!
When this ship sinks, blame the men who steer it like the Titanic, they think it is unsinkable.
"Why don´t you blame Aeropers for not making any sacrifices to rescue Swiss ?"
A nice German word to this : ekelhaft/ Disgusting!!!!
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Wanula
Thanks for pointing that out. I probably forgot to stress that I do not agree with the behaviour of either pilot corpses. Just - the discussion was about the actual CCP behaviour.
Understandable that any group or individual tries to get the most out of the situation. Only drawback - you can get something out of something but only nothing out of nothing.
happy take-offs to all pilots
Thanks for pointing that out. I probably forgot to stress that I do not agree with the behaviour of either pilot corpses. Just - the discussion was about the actual CCP behaviour.
Understandable that any group or individual tries to get the most out of the situation. Only drawback - you can get something out of something but only nothing out of nothing.
happy take-offs to all pilots
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Hi error_401,
may I just correct you on two points: first, Swiss Pilots Association (former CCP) is not trying to get the most of the past/present situation. SPA is just trying to get its collective contract being respected, legally, without wanting anything more than what is actually included in the present collective contract. Basically, SPA is legally trying to oblige SWISS to respect the law. While AP (Aeropers, ex-Swissair pilots union) managed to oblige Swiss to behave illegaly with the mean of a strike's threat (illegal content of a collective labour agreement). We're talking here mainly about seniority issues, plus other 'unimportant' things like holidays.
Linked to that point, we could argue about this 'new company' you're talking about. Technically, it is incorrect since we all know (well, a few at least...) that SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES is the new name of CROSSAIR. So, no new airline. But in April 2002, when CROSSAIR had its name changed into SWISS, SPA, in a gesture of good will, proposed to AP a compromise about seniority: the zipper model. New company? Well not exactely, but all right, let's SHARE THE (huge) RISK: zipper from the bottom was requested by SPA. At that moment, AP and SWISS management stopped the dialogue and started their monologue. The only possibility left for SPA to have its rights respected was via a court. First case showed a clear discrimination towards ex-Crossair pilots, which has never been corrected. We're now waiting for the second court's decision about seniority which SWISS WILL HAVE TO COMPLY TO. If you find that scandalous, it is for sure because you, like many other people in that country, are not used at all to defend your working legal rights. It shocks the basic Swiss to see that even in our country it can be necessary to go quite far in order to have legal rights respected. Well, if SPA does not do that now, then it's a wide open door to any possible other discrimination in any other field in our (still) democratic country.
No economical reason(s) can have precedence over the law. You just have to make a business plan which suits to the existing collective working contract AND NOT THE OPPOSITE! Ex-Crossair pilots DID HAVE a valid contract when the initial business plan was made in 2001-2002. Ex-Swissair pilots not. But guess who is loosing his/her job first? Well, that will have to be corrected after the court's final decision in a few days.
Anyway: whatever decision taken by the court, SWISS won't see next spring, I'm afraid.
The only solution (dream): to split again, so that both entities (ex-Crossair - ex-Swissair) become totally independant from each other (since it's obvious they're unable to live together), in a form or another. And then, we will be eventually able to see which side is profitable in truth... Let's give chance at least for one part to survive instead of grounding the whole thing. No need to say that SWISS EXPRESS cannot be the solution as it is proposed now. We have to create two NEW companies. But I guess it's far too late.
Have a nice one
may I just correct you on two points: first, Swiss Pilots Association (former CCP) is not trying to get the most of the past/present situation. SPA is just trying to get its collective contract being respected, legally, without wanting anything more than what is actually included in the present collective contract. Basically, SPA is legally trying to oblige SWISS to respect the law. While AP (Aeropers, ex-Swissair pilots union) managed to oblige Swiss to behave illegaly with the mean of a strike's threat (illegal content of a collective labour agreement). We're talking here mainly about seniority issues, plus other 'unimportant' things like holidays.
Linked to that point, we could argue about this 'new company' you're talking about. Technically, it is incorrect since we all know (well, a few at least...) that SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES is the new name of CROSSAIR. So, no new airline. But in April 2002, when CROSSAIR had its name changed into SWISS, SPA, in a gesture of good will, proposed to AP a compromise about seniority: the zipper model. New company? Well not exactely, but all right, let's SHARE THE (huge) RISK: zipper from the bottom was requested by SPA. At that moment, AP and SWISS management stopped the dialogue and started their monologue. The only possibility left for SPA to have its rights respected was via a court. First case showed a clear discrimination towards ex-Crossair pilots, which has never been corrected. We're now waiting for the second court's decision about seniority which SWISS WILL HAVE TO COMPLY TO. If you find that scandalous, it is for sure because you, like many other people in that country, are not used at all to defend your working legal rights. It shocks the basic Swiss to see that even in our country it can be necessary to go quite far in order to have legal rights respected. Well, if SPA does not do that now, then it's a wide open door to any possible other discrimination in any other field in our (still) democratic country.
No economical reason(s) can have precedence over the law. You just have to make a business plan which suits to the existing collective working contract AND NOT THE OPPOSITE! Ex-Crossair pilots DID HAVE a valid contract when the initial business plan was made in 2001-2002. Ex-Swissair pilots not. But guess who is loosing his/her job first? Well, that will have to be corrected after the court's final decision in a few days.
Anyway: whatever decision taken by the court, SWISS won't see next spring, I'm afraid.
The only solution (dream): to split again, so that both entities (ex-Crossair - ex-Swissair) become totally independant from each other (since it's obvious they're unable to live together), in a form or another. And then, we will be eventually able to see which side is profitable in truth... Let's give chance at least for one part to survive instead of grounding the whole thing. No need to say that SWISS EXPRESS cannot be the solution as it is proposed now. We have to create two NEW companies. But I guess it's far too late.
Have a nice one
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Very well spoken, MG!!
There's a new threat out from the COO, concerning probably most of the former crossair pilots.
The next days are going to be even more interesting (to say the least)!
There's a new threat out from the COO, concerning probably most of the former crossair pilots.
The next days are going to be even more interesting (to say the least)!
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The next few days will decide what the short future of the SWISS-fiasco will look like.
- Industrial action, bringing the end closer...
or
- Employees going along with the "managment" and gradual decline into a new bankrupcy...
My guess is nr 1.
- Industrial action, bringing the end closer...
or
- Employees going along with the "managment" and gradual decline into a new bankrupcy...
My guess is nr 1.
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MC - thank you for the enlightenment. (No sarcasm in this!)
Your answer clarified some issues - and I'd like to point out that my opinion is based on what an outsider sees and hears about the discussions that make this picture.
Just - the impression to the public (I suggest the definition as: people not associated with SWISS or any inside information) is, that AP now has settled the work issue with SWISS with a contract with which obviously both parties may live whilst CCP ist recurring to the legal way.
Absolutely nothing against your point of view that we shall fight for our rights as workers. But as I said before. One can get something from something and as you too allude, lucky Switzerland if SWISS still exists next year. Getting paid what your work is worth may also be the main reason for so many pilots not flying at all. There is a lower limit in salary or other benefits!
I'd like to see as much of this company resurrect from this battle. Just make it a battle against the odds of the market and a battle for customers and market shares not one against each other for benefits that no one will ever get if things continue like this.
Good luck to all pilots
Your answer clarified some issues - and I'd like to point out that my opinion is based on what an outsider sees and hears about the discussions that make this picture.
Just - the impression to the public (I suggest the definition as: people not associated with SWISS or any inside information) is, that AP now has settled the work issue with SWISS with a contract with which obviously both parties may live whilst CCP ist recurring to the legal way.
Absolutely nothing against your point of view that we shall fight for our rights as workers. But as I said before. One can get something from something and as you too allude, lucky Switzerland if SWISS still exists next year. Getting paid what your work is worth may also be the main reason for so many pilots not flying at all. There is a lower limit in salary or other benefits!
I'd like to see as much of this company resurrect from this battle. Just make it a battle against the odds of the market and a battle for customers and market shares not one against each other for benefits that no one will ever get if things continue like this.
Good luck to all pilots
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I must admit to getting a little tired of all this one sided argumentation and an unwillingness to cope with reality. This is exactly why Swiss will go under soon.
A liitle bit of history perhaps;
Crossair worked all these years because people used it as a stepping stone to other airlines and put up with dreadful salaries and despotic conditions for short term hour-building careers.
When Crossairs boss Moritz Suter bit-off more than he could chew in the late eighties, Swissair bailed Crossair out by wet leasing agreements for regional lines. In the early nineties again MS got himself into trouble and Swissair this time bought approx 75% of the company. A strange 'marriage' ensued with Crossair doing its own thing in BSL and flying for SWR, callsigns and all, and using existing SWR structures such as sales organisation etc..
When Swissair went down it went down due to imcompetent management and criminal consulting and nothing else.
Crossair was bought out of the SAir group in the knick of time in a bit of an 'insider trading' way, but to imagine that it could have survived for more than 6 months alone is not realistic.
One has only to look at the structures, many types of different aircraft, innefficiency of the FDRs, the Base system where crews have more flt hrs Deadheading than anything else etc.. One could write a book on the mistletoe relationship LX and SR had but that is not the point here. But LX pilots know very well why they almost finally went on strike in 1997-8.
Anyway back to Swiss; when the concept was accepted by the government it was for a new company that would maintain established international routes to and from Switzerland. Since the Swissair structure was in liquidation the Crossair existing structure was used. This nevertheless needed reorganisation and thats what the board and André Dosé undertook. A new company!
The first task was to define a business plan. This was done for the ex-Swissair side with a reduction of a third of the pilots, planes and salary of the remaining pilots. Unfortunately this was never done for the Crossair side and it soldiered on smartly with 80+ aircraft of all shapes and sizes in a structure geared to feeding the now deffunct Swissair. To make matters worse Moritz Suter had in the last few years embarked on an expansion of magalomaniac proportions.
This now has to be reigned in and the company cut-down if only due to sheer numbers involved.
In 2002 when negociations started as to contracts etc.. it was the Director of the board who (fairly I think) decided to merge the two seniority lists as per date of entry into one or the other company (SR-LX). This was fair for a new equal start. However it was CCP who threw their toys into the corner and walked out instead of working to an agreement. Since then it has been downhill. Instead of working for a common goal and a career model with a general slide upscale for their salaries, CCP have brought the situation to a point where loss of face is the issue for the CCP board and not the ultimate best for its members.
The reults now show the truth of what should have been planned 1 and half years ago.
The LX FDRs are totally inefficient; when it was decided to use the same computer for crew rostering as on the ex-Swissair side it was found that with the then 76+ aircraft there were 200 crews too many! At SWR the Airbus shorthaul routes were flown with a crew index of 5.5 (comparable to other main liners) at LX the index on the MD-80 was almost 10!!!
The LX network has been flying around for Swissair for so long with 1-2 pax on routes such as BSL -Friedrichshafen, but only for the leasing income and not for profitability. These are facts that CCP has conveniently forgotten. And there are many others.
As for managment, unfortunately André Dosé hired all his totally incompetent cronnies from LX who have since the beginning done all they can to harm the company under some grand delusion of turning back the clock. Not one of them makes the grade! When the finance director was fired ON THE SPOT by the board of directors last week, it was because he had been caught red-handed doctoring numbers and not some machiavellic plot by Aeropers.
Swiss will go under. But mainly because of internal sabotage, external tampering and incompetent mangement. Unfortunately also because the regional segment is inefficient and the product is lousy. One has only to see what they are up against with Easy and all the others to see that in Moritz Suters megalomania he missed the boat compeletly.
It would do all a big favour if a little less bull**** was swilled around and some facts and realities taken into their true perspective.
Time for CCP to knock the old chip off the shoulder and do some real talking. Hiding behind some judge who hasn't a clue about aviation is not going to do any body a favour
MB
A liitle bit of history perhaps;
Crossair worked all these years because people used it as a stepping stone to other airlines and put up with dreadful salaries and despotic conditions for short term hour-building careers.
When Crossairs boss Moritz Suter bit-off more than he could chew in the late eighties, Swissair bailed Crossair out by wet leasing agreements for regional lines. In the early nineties again MS got himself into trouble and Swissair this time bought approx 75% of the company. A strange 'marriage' ensued with Crossair doing its own thing in BSL and flying for SWR, callsigns and all, and using existing SWR structures such as sales organisation etc..
When Swissair went down it went down due to imcompetent management and criminal consulting and nothing else.
Crossair was bought out of the SAir group in the knick of time in a bit of an 'insider trading' way, but to imagine that it could have survived for more than 6 months alone is not realistic.
One has only to look at the structures, many types of different aircraft, innefficiency of the FDRs, the Base system where crews have more flt hrs Deadheading than anything else etc.. One could write a book on the mistletoe relationship LX and SR had but that is not the point here. But LX pilots know very well why they almost finally went on strike in 1997-8.
Anyway back to Swiss; when the concept was accepted by the government it was for a new company that would maintain established international routes to and from Switzerland. Since the Swissair structure was in liquidation the Crossair existing structure was used. This nevertheless needed reorganisation and thats what the board and André Dosé undertook. A new company!
The first task was to define a business plan. This was done for the ex-Swissair side with a reduction of a third of the pilots, planes and salary of the remaining pilots. Unfortunately this was never done for the Crossair side and it soldiered on smartly with 80+ aircraft of all shapes and sizes in a structure geared to feeding the now deffunct Swissair. To make matters worse Moritz Suter had in the last few years embarked on an expansion of magalomaniac proportions.
This now has to be reigned in and the company cut-down if only due to sheer numbers involved.
In 2002 when negociations started as to contracts etc.. it was the Director of the board who (fairly I think) decided to merge the two seniority lists as per date of entry into one or the other company (SR-LX). This was fair for a new equal start. However it was CCP who threw their toys into the corner and walked out instead of working to an agreement. Since then it has been downhill. Instead of working for a common goal and a career model with a general slide upscale for their salaries, CCP have brought the situation to a point where loss of face is the issue for the CCP board and not the ultimate best for its members.
The reults now show the truth of what should have been planned 1 and half years ago.
The LX FDRs are totally inefficient; when it was decided to use the same computer for crew rostering as on the ex-Swissair side it was found that with the then 76+ aircraft there were 200 crews too many! At SWR the Airbus shorthaul routes were flown with a crew index of 5.5 (comparable to other main liners) at LX the index on the MD-80 was almost 10!!!
The LX network has been flying around for Swissair for so long with 1-2 pax on routes such as BSL -Friedrichshafen, but only for the leasing income and not for profitability. These are facts that CCP has conveniently forgotten. And there are many others.
As for managment, unfortunately André Dosé hired all his totally incompetent cronnies from LX who have since the beginning done all they can to harm the company under some grand delusion of turning back the clock. Not one of them makes the grade! When the finance director was fired ON THE SPOT by the board of directors last week, it was because he had been caught red-handed doctoring numbers and not some machiavellic plot by Aeropers.
Swiss will go under. But mainly because of internal sabotage, external tampering and incompetent mangement. Unfortunately also because the regional segment is inefficient and the product is lousy. One has only to see what they are up against with Easy and all the others to see that in Moritz Suters megalomania he missed the boat compeletly.
It would do all a big favour if a little less bull**** was swilled around and some facts and realities taken into their true perspective.
Time for CCP to knock the old chip off the shoulder and do some real talking. Hiding behind some judge who hasn't a clue about aviation is not going to do any body a favour
MB
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Thank you MartinBaker. I agree.
It's a swiss habit to comit "internal sabotage".
Flush the 2 mia. swiss Fränkli because the CCP guys once failed the Swissair tests? Go and play with real toys.
It's a swiss habit to comit "internal sabotage".
Flush the 2 mia. swiss Fränkli because the CCP guys once failed the Swissair tests? Go and play with real toys.
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At last. Mr M. Baker has hit the nail on the head with an accurate precis of the situation.
Personally, I disagree with the "lousy product", it's definitely not lousy if you mean in-flight service, airport lounges etc., but I do think the pricing strategy at Swiss can be vastly improved, a web-site as good as BA's for European routes might be a good place to start.
And finally, I keep telling myself everyday I arrive for work at the truly "Unique" Flughafen "Lightning can't strike twice, Swiss won't go bankrupt" Blinkered? Maybe, but otherwises it just gets me down.
As we joke at work: we've got the only shopping centre in Switzerland with its own Airport! Have you seen the new Fish and Chip shop, the Macdonalds and Migros? What more does an Englishman need
Personally, I disagree with the "lousy product", it's definitely not lousy if you mean in-flight service, airport lounges etc., but I do think the pricing strategy at Swiss can be vastly improved, a web-site as good as BA's for European routes might be a good place to start.
And finally, I keep telling myself everyday I arrive for work at the truly "Unique" Flughafen "Lightning can't strike twice, Swiss won't go bankrupt" Blinkered? Maybe, but otherwises it just gets me down.
As we joke at work: we've got the only shopping centre in Switzerland with its own Airport! Have you seen the new Fish and Chip shop, the Macdonalds and Migros? What more does an Englishman need
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Very amusing to follow the SWISS soap starring "astronauts" and "toy-pilots" in the never ending "who to blame for the misery story".
Degenerated to an intelligence level of similar "battles", e.g. catholics vs. protestants and vice versa, all those wining loosers and whimps should grab their remaining intelligence (if there is or was any) and prepare themselves for the next episode: a real job back in the non-aviation industry. The human resource managers of those companies are just waiting for you guys and gals to ask: "what else except of flying a plane have you achieved in your marvelous career so far ?"
Adios
Degenerated to an intelligence level of similar "battles", e.g. catholics vs. protestants and vice versa, all those wining loosers and whimps should grab their remaining intelligence (if there is or was any) and prepare themselves for the next episode: a real job back in the non-aviation industry. The human resource managers of those companies are just waiting for you guys and gals to ask: "what else except of flying a plane have you achieved in your marvelous career so far ?"
Adios
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For those of you who are still interested about what it is about (jobs, and if possible still within the aviation-field, afaik), here's the Press release by SWISS PILOTS:
"SWISS: Court of arbitration verdict protects the former Crossair Pilots
The dismissal of 169 former Crossair Pilots at SWISS has been unlawful. And also the future dismissals can only come into effect in proportion to the number of Pilots employed with the two Pilots’ bodies (former Crossair: 1050 / Ex-Swissair: 850).
This final statement, which is of utmost importance for the former Crossair Pilots, has been given by the court of arbitration by publishing their verdict today Wednesday evening. The court additionally clearly expresses their conviction that SWISS has not been able to give sound reasoning with their economical argumentation.
Even though the union of the former Crossair Pilots (SWISS PILOTS) has filed more extensive claims due to tactical reasons for their law suit, the representatives of the union board as well as their lawyer, Dr. Stefan Suter, are rating the verdict as a clear victory for the Pilots of former Crossair.
The court of arbitration had in the same composition already confirmed the former Crossair Pilots in July 2002 to be discriminated within SWISS. The company SWISS had up to this date refused to consequently eliminate the discrimination."
Might be a good new base to get into discussion again. I hope so.
And maybe MB (how I love that abbreviation!) has hit the nails on the head, but they are really crooked now.... better luck in aiming next time!
"SWISS: Court of arbitration verdict protects the former Crossair Pilots
The dismissal of 169 former Crossair Pilots at SWISS has been unlawful. And also the future dismissals can only come into effect in proportion to the number of Pilots employed with the two Pilots’ bodies (former Crossair: 1050 / Ex-Swissair: 850).
This final statement, which is of utmost importance for the former Crossair Pilots, has been given by the court of arbitration by publishing their verdict today Wednesday evening. The court additionally clearly expresses their conviction that SWISS has not been able to give sound reasoning with their economical argumentation.
Even though the union of the former Crossair Pilots (SWISS PILOTS) has filed more extensive claims due to tactical reasons for their law suit, the representatives of the union board as well as their lawyer, Dr. Stefan Suter, are rating the verdict as a clear victory for the Pilots of former Crossair.
The court of arbitration had in the same composition already confirmed the former Crossair Pilots in July 2002 to be discriminated within SWISS. The company SWISS had up to this date refused to consequently eliminate the discrimination."
Might be a good new base to get into discussion again. I hope so.
And maybe MB (how I love that abbreviation!) has hit the nails on the head, but they are really crooked now.... better luck in aiming next time!
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Here is the official answer of SWISS Air Lines, copied from its Website. Does'nt sound very friendly…
Ruling will have serious consequences
The court of arbitration has rejected the SWISS PILOTS’ demand that, in the event of job cuts, all former Swissair pilots should be made redundant before the first former Crossair pilot can be dismissed.
The court of arbitration has ruled that if there are too many pilots, jobs should be trimmed in proportion to the size of the two existing corps in line with a ‘zipper system’.
This ruling will have serious consequences for SWISS.
In a decision issued on 17 June 2003, the court of arbitration rejected the application by SWISS PILOTS that, if the fleet is reduced and pilots dismissed, all former Swissair pilots working on European and long-haul routes should be the first to go, even if 50 to 100-seater regional aircraft are grounded. The court also rejected an application by SWISS to the effect that if aircraft in the regional fleet are grounded, former Crossair pilots working on these aircraft would be dismissed and conversely, if aircraft serving big European and long-haul routes are taken out of service, former Swissair pilots will lose their jobs.
The court of arbitration ruled that if aircraft are grounded and pilots have to be dismissed, a proportional zipper system will come into play.
This ruling will have very serious consequences for SWISS should it acquire legal validity. The zipper system will cause substantial additional costs and will rob SWISS of any possibility of executing the planned fleet reduction on the basis of economic criteria, or of fully exploiting the savings potential associated with the reduction.
SWISS intends to discuss the consequences of the ruling with the pilots’ unions.
SWISS will be holding a media conference at its head office in Basel on Tuesday, 24 June at 2 p.m. to explain the forthcoming restructuring and the consequences of the ruling by the court of arbitration.
By the way: I've heard of a number of SWISS Pilots who came years ago with their wife and children from New-zealand and Australia to work for Crossair, who are now being threatened to have their residence permit cancelled. A dirty trick to get rid of people without paying the regulatory allowances normaly paid in case of restructuring.
Would anyone know more about it?
Ruling will have serious consequences
The court of arbitration has rejected the SWISS PILOTS’ demand that, in the event of job cuts, all former Swissair pilots should be made redundant before the first former Crossair pilot can be dismissed.
The court of arbitration has ruled that if there are too many pilots, jobs should be trimmed in proportion to the size of the two existing corps in line with a ‘zipper system’.
This ruling will have serious consequences for SWISS.
In a decision issued on 17 June 2003, the court of arbitration rejected the application by SWISS PILOTS that, if the fleet is reduced and pilots dismissed, all former Swissair pilots working on European and long-haul routes should be the first to go, even if 50 to 100-seater regional aircraft are grounded. The court also rejected an application by SWISS to the effect that if aircraft in the regional fleet are grounded, former Crossair pilots working on these aircraft would be dismissed and conversely, if aircraft serving big European and long-haul routes are taken out of service, former Swissair pilots will lose their jobs.
The court of arbitration ruled that if aircraft are grounded and pilots have to be dismissed, a proportional zipper system will come into play.
This ruling will have very serious consequences for SWISS should it acquire legal validity. The zipper system will cause substantial additional costs and will rob SWISS of any possibility of executing the planned fleet reduction on the basis of economic criteria, or of fully exploiting the savings potential associated with the reduction.
SWISS intends to discuss the consequences of the ruling with the pilots’ unions.
SWISS will be holding a media conference at its head office in Basel on Tuesday, 24 June at 2 p.m. to explain the forthcoming restructuring and the consequences of the ruling by the court of arbitration.
By the way: I've heard of a number of SWISS Pilots who came years ago with their wife and children from New-zealand and Australia to work for Crossair, who are now being threatened to have their residence permit cancelled. A dirty trick to get rid of people without paying the regulatory allowances normaly paid in case of restructuring.
Would anyone know more about it?
Last edited by ettore; 20th Jun 2003 at 00:44.
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Yeah, too right ettore!
33 Poor ex-Crossair B*ggers and their wives and offspring were given notice a couple of months ago to be deported and sent off to the Gas Chambers no later than 31 July 2003. I was told there are about 25 left who are hanging on til the end. Some have been in the company and country for seven years.
They comprise mainly those foreign scum and pseudo pilots from Downunder as well as USA, Canada, Sth America, Sth Africa and parts of Eastern Europe.
The decision was made and promoted by SWISS management, with the support and cheering of AEROPERS (ex-Swissair pilots union), all in the name of "Welcome to Civilised Aviation" and "Regional Excellence". The new name given to this exercise in ethnic cleansing within SWISS is now called "Formula for Winning".
The press release from SWISS that you've just posted admirably demonstrates the problem. SWISS management are saying that it is quite ok, in fact it is mandatory, to break the law, breach contracts and discriminate against its workforce with immunity, especially if managment does not like the law or the contracts. According to SWISS, the end always justifies the means, and the rule of law and ethics should never be allowed to get in the way of making a quick Swiss Franc. Would appear from the outside to be a recipe for outright anarchy and lawlessness?
Quite sad really and I imagine it doesn't augur well for the future of SWISS. Management had a choice in the matter, but chose the Brown-Shirt and Jack-Boot approach to Human Resources. The Chairman and the CEO of SWISS have both admitted they have a "failed ethical coordinate system". However, SWISS just don't seem to be able to break out of the rut that their management continually get them into.
Finally, one should at least be fair and balanced on SWISS and the Swiss, as they are not alone in this sort of cunning scheme. From memory there were others who did and tried the same sort of thing in the 30s and 40s of the last Century.
33 Poor ex-Crossair B*ggers and their wives and offspring were given notice a couple of months ago to be deported and sent off to the Gas Chambers no later than 31 July 2003. I was told there are about 25 left who are hanging on til the end. Some have been in the company and country for seven years.
They comprise mainly those foreign scum and pseudo pilots from Downunder as well as USA, Canada, Sth America, Sth Africa and parts of Eastern Europe.
The decision was made and promoted by SWISS management, with the support and cheering of AEROPERS (ex-Swissair pilots union), all in the name of "Welcome to Civilised Aviation" and "Regional Excellence". The new name given to this exercise in ethnic cleansing within SWISS is now called "Formula for Winning".
The press release from SWISS that you've just posted admirably demonstrates the problem. SWISS management are saying that it is quite ok, in fact it is mandatory, to break the law, breach contracts and discriminate against its workforce with immunity, especially if managment does not like the law or the contracts. According to SWISS, the end always justifies the means, and the rule of law and ethics should never be allowed to get in the way of making a quick Swiss Franc. Would appear from the outside to be a recipe for outright anarchy and lawlessness?
Quite sad really and I imagine it doesn't augur well for the future of SWISS. Management had a choice in the matter, but chose the Brown-Shirt and Jack-Boot approach to Human Resources. The Chairman and the CEO of SWISS have both admitted they have a "failed ethical coordinate system". However, SWISS just don't seem to be able to break out of the rut that their management continually get them into.
Finally, one should at least be fair and balanced on SWISS and the Swiss, as they are not alone in this sort of cunning scheme. From memory there were others who did and tried the same sort of thing in the 30s and 40s of the last Century.
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The Board of Directors shall meet Monday to decide on the restructuring. Current figures brought by the medias set the future fleet at 18 LH/18 MH/40 SH A/C against the current fleet consisting of 25/26/61.
According to Press reports, 3000 jobs would be lost, plus an addtional 2000 in related business such as SR Technics, GateGourmet and others.
The ongoing lecking of such alarming information to the press might be directly orchestrated by the management, to scare those who might be scared, provoke those who would then be brandmarked as militant and split a possible front of contestation, once a milder version of the restructuring presented to the Unions and to medias on Monday night.
Nevertheless, Swiss do need dramatic cuts to regain the confidence of the banks, which recently suspended their credit facilities in order to speed up the restructuring process.
You can look it the way you want: it does not look good. Not at all.
According to Press reports, 3000 jobs would be lost, plus an addtional 2000 in related business such as SR Technics, GateGourmet and others.
The ongoing lecking of such alarming information to the press might be directly orchestrated by the management, to scare those who might be scared, provoke those who would then be brandmarked as militant and split a possible front of contestation, once a milder version of the restructuring presented to the Unions and to medias on Monday night.
Nevertheless, Swiss do need dramatic cuts to regain the confidence of the banks, which recently suspended their credit facilities in order to speed up the restructuring process.
You can look it the way you want: it does not look good. Not at all.
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Ettore,
Not "being threatened ", has to leave the company by end July, nasty letter was sent by the frendempolizei to leave the country by 1st August!!! As if the pilots from those southern countries were criminals, BUT if you are some stranger from somewhere and get in Switzerland as a refugee, you get to stay here FREE, AND get allowances for your family too!!! Once again I say: EKELHAFT=DISGUSTING!!!!!!
The pilots made production here for +3 years, get a kick in the back and do NOT receive their unemployment benefits OR a package.
Welcome to "destination excellence"......
Management has acknowledged mistakes but do not rectify them, time has come for the management to realise they have to PAY
PAY .
Not "being threatened ", has to leave the company by end July, nasty letter was sent by the frendempolizei to leave the country by 1st August!!! As if the pilots from those southern countries were criminals, BUT if you are some stranger from somewhere and get in Switzerland as a refugee, you get to stay here FREE, AND get allowances for your family too!!! Once again I say: EKELHAFT=DISGUSTING!!!!!!
The pilots made production here for +3 years, get a kick in the back and do NOT receive their unemployment benefits OR a package.
Welcome to "destination excellence"......
Management has acknowledged mistakes but do not rectify them, time has come for the management to realise they have to PAY
PAY .
ex-Tanker
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It's a mess. The ship is sinking - the second ship. Anyone expecting good old fashioned socially motivated recognition is no longer being realistic.
The time has come to decide - jump (but where to?) - or hang on and sink with the ship?
It has happened to other airlines before but no-one wants to see the truth until it is too late.
Good luck to all concerned.
The time has come to decide - jump (but where to?) - or hang on and sink with the ship?
It has happened to other airlines before but no-one wants to see the truth until it is too late.
Good luck to all concerned.
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The whole thing (being Swiss International Air Lines) got off on the wrong foot from the very beginning with an underhand deal cut with ex-Swissair pilots union Aeropers back in Oct 2001 in a hastily arranged agreement to get the new Swiss (read - the old Swissair) up and running in record time. All this was done behind the backs of the ex-Crossair pilots and their union Swiss Pilots.
Presumably the management assumed the ex-Crossair guys and gals would bend over gladly after a sweetner of a 16% pay rise, but this assumption combined with the conceited attitude of ex-Swissair crews made them stand their ground.
The new Swiss was afterall, (or so they were told), merely a renamed expansion of the former Crossair. The reality was quite different and being treated as second class citizens was enough for Swiss Pilots to fight for the cause.
The new spin-off Swiss Express will never get off the ground. Any pilot who signs a new SEX contract would be mad to give up the rights to an improved redundancy package that Aeropers will no doubt negotiate for its members and to which Swiss Pilots members would also be entitled to. Increased competition from German Wings, easyjet and Germania whose cost structures are 'real low cost' will mean the demise of SEX before its even started.
The whole thing is (again) most probably doomed - a tremendous embarrassment for Switzerland. What the management don't seem to grasp is that the majority of its own employees though, no longer care that the ship is sinking. They've had enough.
Run for the lifeboats before they're gone.
Presumably the management assumed the ex-Crossair guys and gals would bend over gladly after a sweetner of a 16% pay rise, but this assumption combined with the conceited attitude of ex-Swissair crews made them stand their ground.
The new Swiss was afterall, (or so they were told), merely a renamed expansion of the former Crossair. The reality was quite different and being treated as second class citizens was enough for Swiss Pilots to fight for the cause.
The new spin-off Swiss Express will never get off the ground. Any pilot who signs a new SEX contract would be mad to give up the rights to an improved redundancy package that Aeropers will no doubt negotiate for its members and to which Swiss Pilots members would also be entitled to. Increased competition from German Wings, easyjet and Germania whose cost structures are 'real low cost' will mean the demise of SEX before its even started.
The whole thing is (again) most probably doomed - a tremendous embarrassment for Switzerland. What the management don't seem to grasp is that the majority of its own employees though, no longer care that the ship is sinking. They've had enough.
Run for the lifeboats before they're gone.
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Shaker One:
Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I have heard recently about the happenings around Swissair/Crossair/Swiss!!
When Swissair was grounded, it was quickly discovered that the WHOLE structure around SairGroup (including Crossair) was broke and about to collapse. The "quick and dirty" plan to save what was salvageable was to use the Crossair legal structure, and with a MASSIVE injection of cash from the government and the banks, to make it work including regional AND long-haul fleets.
Once this plan was devised, the task force charged to apply this plan came to Aeropers (Swissair Pilot Union) and gave them 2 choices:
1. Accept 250 job cuts and a salary cut of 35%
2. Forget the whole deal and we scrap your airline.
There was absolutely NOTHING to be negotiated, and the Swissair union accepted the deal as is...
The medium and long haul fleet of Swiss international is vastly more efficient and productive than it's regional counterpart. Further cuts in LH capacities will also mean further job cuts.
However, trying to introduce a "zipper" concept between regional and LH pilots is preposterous. The jobs will have to be cut where the airplanes are scrapped, and this time, the totally over-inflated regional segment will have to bleed the most.
Any "pilotino" who thinks he or she can cheat herself into an airbus seat with legal maneuvering and lawsuits against the former swissair pilots is seriously deluded, not to mention plain WRONG!
Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I have heard recently about the happenings around Swissair/Crossair/Swiss!!
When Swissair was grounded, it was quickly discovered that the WHOLE structure around SairGroup (including Crossair) was broke and about to collapse. The "quick and dirty" plan to save what was salvageable was to use the Crossair legal structure, and with a MASSIVE injection of cash from the government and the banks, to make it work including regional AND long-haul fleets.
Once this plan was devised, the task force charged to apply this plan came to Aeropers (Swissair Pilot Union) and gave them 2 choices:
1. Accept 250 job cuts and a salary cut of 35%
2. Forget the whole deal and we scrap your airline.
There was absolutely NOTHING to be negotiated, and the Swissair union accepted the deal as is...
The medium and long haul fleet of Swiss international is vastly more efficient and productive than it's regional counterpart. Further cuts in LH capacities will also mean further job cuts.
However, trying to introduce a "zipper" concept between regional and LH pilots is preposterous. The jobs will have to be cut where the airplanes are scrapped, and this time, the totally over-inflated regional segment will have to bleed the most.
Any "pilotino" who thinks he or she can cheat herself into an airbus seat with legal maneuvering and lawsuits against the former swissair pilots is seriously deluded, not to mention plain WRONG!
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Any "pilotino" who thinks he or she can cheat herself into an airbus seat with legal maneuvering and lawsuits against the former swissair pilots is seriously deluded, not to mention plain WRONG!
What planet are you from ?
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About bleeding, it would be slowly time for people such as FlyMD to revise their judgment on "Pilotinos". Tomorrow at 1PM, Swiss will announce the scraping of one third of its fleet and lay off of 1/3 of the staff.
According to my calculation, if they reduce the fleet from the current 25 LH A/C + 26 MH + 61 Regional A/C to 18+20+30 (current figure inthe papers), there will be 295 job lost in the cockipts on Long-haul and medium-haul (former SR pilots) and 279 ex-Crossair on the regional, making a total of 574.
This calculation is based on an average within Swiss network of 25 pilots for one long-haul aircraft, 20 for a medium haul and 9 for a regional. The source for those ratios is an Aeropers fellow (ex-Swissair).
To make a long story short: at this level of drastic cuts, it would be more than urgent that all pilots of the company unite to face the reality. If they keep on fighting each other instead of organizing a common line of defence to rescue what still might be rescued, in a couple of months, there will simply be nothing left to do, but ask for unemployment benefits, regardless is you flew before for Swissair or Crossair.
According to my calculation, if they reduce the fleet from the current 25 LH A/C + 26 MH + 61 Regional A/C to 18+20+30 (current figure inthe papers), there will be 295 job lost in the cockipts on Long-haul and medium-haul (former SR pilots) and 279 ex-Crossair on the regional, making a total of 574.
This calculation is based on an average within Swiss network of 25 pilots for one long-haul aircraft, 20 for a medium haul and 9 for a regional. The source for those ratios is an Aeropers fellow (ex-Swissair).
To make a long story short: at this level of drastic cuts, it would be more than urgent that all pilots of the company unite to face the reality. If they keep on fighting each other instead of organizing a common line of defence to rescue what still might be rescued, in a couple of months, there will simply be nothing left to do, but ask for unemployment benefits, regardless is you flew before for Swissair or Crossair.