To Go or Not to Go
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the L1011 windshear accident was unavoidable, or certainly once they'd got into the shear it wasn't, at least.
I recall the excellent 'Black Box' program that pops up on Discovery Channel now and again featuring this accident and the programme makers actually visited a Delta sim where a Training Captain recreated the approach with the conditions encountered that day. It made harrowing viewing with the guy fighting with it all the way whilst the GPWS screamed 'windshear', 'sink rate' and 'pull up' at him. He didn't make it, incidentally, and the impact was certainly not survivable.
The aircraft in the sim was a 767, don't know whether the lack of the third engine would make a lot of difference to the crew's ability to get out of trouble.
I recall the excellent 'Black Box' program that pops up on Discovery Channel now and again featuring this accident and the programme makers actually visited a Delta sim where a Training Captain recreated the approach with the conditions encountered that day. It made harrowing viewing with the guy fighting with it all the way whilst the GPWS screamed 'windshear', 'sink rate' and 'pull up' at him. He didn't make it, incidentally, and the impact was certainly not survivable.
The aircraft in the sim was a 767, don't know whether the lack of the third engine would make a lot of difference to the crew's ability to get out of trouble.
Paxing All Over The World
A related thread is running in Tech Log about lightning strikes. It was started in 1999(!) which just goes to show that Danny's little helpers DO have everything stored away carefully on floppy disk!
One of the interesting aspects is reports of Ball Lightning being generated inside the flight deck and running down the aisle. Apparently the hosties thought that they were about to be toasties.
In the second post of the thread a number of problems are detailed by Checkboard a tech moderator, I shorten here:
"It has been suggested that aircraft showing symptoms of static electricity (P static on the radio, or St Elmos fire) may be leaving an ionised wake, it is also possible that the jet exhaust leaves a similar wake, even if the aircraft isn't being charged by the environment. This wake acts as a charge path, so aircraft actually trigger lightning."
This puts an interesting turn on the debate! He then mentions fuel explosion but that is very rare these days.
"The next worse thing that can happen is flame out (engine failure). Single flameouts due lightning strikes are fairly common on aircraft with aft mounted engines, dual flameouts have occured, although no accidents seem to have been recorded.
Small electric shocks have been reported by pilots, but nothing incapacitating.
Beyond this, various types of structural, avionics, electrical and magnatizing damage is possible. I have pictures of radomes blown apart, wing leading edges peeled back at the rivet line and such. This type of physical damage is usually cased by the sudden heat expansion of air due to arcing within an enclosed part of the aircraft structure, but is fairly rare.
Most of this information can be found in the excellent "Severe Weather Flying" by Dennis Newton."
The thread was used again in 200 but has lain quiet for three years. One of the most recent postings is from one who calls himself Tan.
Couldn't resist that.
One of the interesting aspects is reports of Ball Lightning being generated inside the flight deck and running down the aisle. Apparently the hosties thought that they were about to be toasties.
In the second post of the thread a number of problems are detailed by Checkboard a tech moderator, I shorten here:
"It has been suggested that aircraft showing symptoms of static electricity (P static on the radio, or St Elmos fire) may be leaving an ionised wake, it is also possible that the jet exhaust leaves a similar wake, even if the aircraft isn't being charged by the environment. This wake acts as a charge path, so aircraft actually trigger lightning."
This puts an interesting turn on the debate! He then mentions fuel explosion but that is very rare these days.
"The next worse thing that can happen is flame out (engine failure). Single flameouts due lightning strikes are fairly common on aircraft with aft mounted engines, dual flameouts have occured, although no accidents seem to have been recorded.
Small electric shocks have been reported by pilots, but nothing incapacitating.
Beyond this, various types of structural, avionics, electrical and magnatizing damage is possible. I have pictures of radomes blown apart, wing leading edges peeled back at the rivet line and such. This type of physical damage is usually cased by the sudden heat expansion of air due to arcing within an enclosed part of the aircraft structure, but is fairly rare.
Most of this information can be found in the excellent "Severe Weather Flying" by Dennis Newton."
The thread was used again in 200 but has lain quiet for three years. One of the most recent postings is from one who calls himself Tan.
Couldn't resist that.
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Burger Thing - thanks for selectively quoting me (amd somebody else?) but I'm not saying that Tan would fly in those conditions - I think he pretty much said himself that he would make the go / no go decision based on what confronted him. Fair enough. I dont like his attitude to debate on flight safety matters, which is why I would prefer not to risk flying with him. Nobodys perfect....
What I do have a problem with is trying to stifle an excellent flight safety debate about natural phenomenon. Its not about second guessing, its about what can (and does) happen if you fly through a Cb!
What I do have a problem with is trying to stifle an excellent flight safety debate about natural phenomenon. Its not about second guessing, its about what can (and does) happen if you fly through a Cb!
Mental Floss Prevents Moral Decay
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Think it has been posted before, but seems appropriate to post the link again in this thread:
Lightning strike of an airplane
Lightning strike of an airplane
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Sorry - something else just occured to me. Please remember that meteorological observations and the METARS you fly on, until very recently, relied almost completely on the Mk 1 eyeball (although generally not through a window.... we did go outside to look at the clouds...)
Similarly, what could look like a perfectly innocent fluffy little CB (ahem) could in fact be hiding a whole heap of trouble. Weather radar or no weather radar.
Similarly, what could look like a perfectly innocent fluffy little CB (ahem) could in fact be hiding a whole heap of trouble. Weather radar or no weather radar.
WestWind1950
You triggered a few memories with "return home".
One: Late sixties, Alitalia DC-8, Lima-Caracas-Lisbon(could have been Madrid)-Rome. Lightning strike about ten minutes out of Maiquetia. Flash of light, big bang, lights out for 3-5sec. Uneventful flight thereafter, not a peep from up front and we continued to Lisbon or Madrid.
Two: 24 December 1971. Lansa L188A flight Lima-Pucallpa-Iquitos-Pucallpa-Lima. 0600 departure from Lima would allow a few hours leeway to get back and depart from daylight-only Pucallpa. This particular flight was late departing Lima due to weather in Pucallpa, took off around 1100 or slightly later but still just barely inside the Pucallpa return daylight window. Pucallpa itself had cleared but the CBs had moved between there and Lima and the Lansa crew were faced with either going through and still making the window on the way back, or skirting the weather and definitely missing the "return home" window for Xmas Eve dinner.
They dedided to go through but didn't make it very far. Whether the wing root failed first due to excessive control inputs, or if the aircraft was hit by lightning that set it afire is a moot point. On the CVR the first officer called it lightning, stbd wing folding and the aircraft disintegrated at fl210.
There was one survivor, Juliana Koepke, a teenage girl, about whom Werner Herzog made a documentary a few years ago. The row of seats she and her mother were in came down through the trees back-first and Juliana's worst injury was, if I remember correctly, a broken collarbone. She ate berries, found a stream, followed it to a river, swam/floated downstream and dragged herself up the bank at a hut, reappeared some twelve days later, after the search for survivors had been suspended.
Yes, all that was in the days prior to really good weather radar. I'm (almost) perfectly happy on a thirty-minute rollercoaster ride between Sao Paulo and Rio with a lot of lightning about. But plain old judgement was not much different thirty years ago to what it is today, nor is the "return home" syndrome. So I appreciate the "We're going to give this weather time to move aside, sorry if you miss appointments" message from flight deck to cabin.
You triggered a few memories with "return home".
One: Late sixties, Alitalia DC-8, Lima-Caracas-Lisbon(could have been Madrid)-Rome. Lightning strike about ten minutes out of Maiquetia. Flash of light, big bang, lights out for 3-5sec. Uneventful flight thereafter, not a peep from up front and we continued to Lisbon or Madrid.
Two: 24 December 1971. Lansa L188A flight Lima-Pucallpa-Iquitos-Pucallpa-Lima. 0600 departure from Lima would allow a few hours leeway to get back and depart from daylight-only Pucallpa. This particular flight was late departing Lima due to weather in Pucallpa, took off around 1100 or slightly later but still just barely inside the Pucallpa return daylight window. Pucallpa itself had cleared but the CBs had moved between there and Lima and the Lansa crew were faced with either going through and still making the window on the way back, or skirting the weather and definitely missing the "return home" window for Xmas Eve dinner.
They dedided to go through but didn't make it very far. Whether the wing root failed first due to excessive control inputs, or if the aircraft was hit by lightning that set it afire is a moot point. On the CVR the first officer called it lightning, stbd wing folding and the aircraft disintegrated at fl210.
There was one survivor, Juliana Koepke, a teenage girl, about whom Werner Herzog made a documentary a few years ago. The row of seats she and her mother were in came down through the trees back-first and Juliana's worst injury was, if I remember correctly, a broken collarbone. She ate berries, found a stream, followed it to a river, swam/floated downstream and dragged herself up the bank at a hut, reappeared some twelve days later, after the search for survivors had been suspended.
Yes, all that was in the days prior to really good weather radar. I'm (almost) perfectly happy on a thirty-minute rollercoaster ride between Sao Paulo and Rio with a lot of lightning about. But plain old judgement was not much different thirty years ago to what it is today, nor is the "return home" syndrome. So I appreciate the "We're going to give this weather time to move aside, sorry if you miss appointments" message from flight deck to cabin.
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Postman Pod:
You would be surprised how many times you have to make decisions in real life, based on what is confronting you... And I am not only talking about weather.
Ah, yes, but somebody said he saw something through the window what other crew did and another person comes up and tells, that you shouldn't judge others withouth having the clear picture. This person just MUST be a dangerous cowboy....
What made me sour, ist that I have a feeling that this thread didn't start as a discussion about safety matters, it started as a critcism about other crews without having the facts. And when I read (really
) statements like:
makes me wonder if JW411, who started this thread was really sincere about a good safety discussion.
I think he pretty much said himself that he would make the go / no go decision based on what confronted him.
Ah, yes, but somebody said he saw something through the window what other crew did and another person comes up and tells, that you shouldn't judge others withouth having the clear picture. This person just MUST be a dangerous cowboy....
What made me sour, ist that I have a feeling that this thread didn't start as a discussion about safety matters, it started as a critcism about other crews without having the facts. And when I read (really
) statements like:
I can only think of one and it is already in deep financial sh*t. If I've got it right, one of my sons lives out there and he describes them as a national disgrace.
I think this is a very usefull topic for flight saftey. As a F/ATPL who is relatively experienced in light aircraft but inexperienced in comparison with many of the posters on here, and has yet to get to the flight-deck of a large commercial aircraft, I find it very usefull.
As a matter of fact, when flying last Sunday, (18/05/03) I was returning to the airfield with parachutist still on board (as a gust of 29 kts had crossed the airfield). On short finals the wind was given at about 40 degrees off the runway at about 25 kts, and very gusty. I think the wind must have changed to a quartering tailwind in the last moments of the approach as I was still airborne half-way down the runway, at which point I went round. The initial climb was non-existant, I kept having to lower the nose to maintian airspeed and we were at about 100' for what felt like ages. Needless to say the noise abatement turn went out the window! As I climbed away I looked right to see everything looked very black and horrible, and realised if I didn't get it on the ground the next time, I would be in the middle of it. I decided not to even try, and diverted to a near-by gliding field which was down-wind of the weather and had an into wind runway. The parachutist', who as any of you who have done para-flying will know, rarely give the pilots much respect or slack, were very happy with my decision!
They had sat through previous landings with me in rough conditions so they knew I can handle it but I think that approach had them a little worried as it was so rough.
It bol***ed up the afternoons schedule but who cares?
As it happens I was told that evening by the CFI of the flying club on the same airfield that 'I chose the worst moment to land, if I had tried again I wouldn't have had a problem' but I'm still happy with my decision. Landing a light aircraft (no weather radar, no iceing protection) on the edge of a CB would not have been fun and whilst we obviously carry reserves we don't have that much fuel on board with para opps.
Maybe its not quite the same as airline operations with slot pressures and large finacial implications to every decision but the princibles the same. Incidently isn't it strange how these desicions come easier with increasing experience?
As a matter of fact, when flying last Sunday, (18/05/03) I was returning to the airfield with parachutist still on board (as a gust of 29 kts had crossed the airfield). On short finals the wind was given at about 40 degrees off the runway at about 25 kts, and very gusty. I think the wind must have changed to a quartering tailwind in the last moments of the approach as I was still airborne half-way down the runway, at which point I went round. The initial climb was non-existant, I kept having to lower the nose to maintian airspeed and we were at about 100' for what felt like ages. Needless to say the noise abatement turn went out the window! As I climbed away I looked right to see everything looked very black and horrible, and realised if I didn't get it on the ground the next time, I would be in the middle of it. I decided not to even try, and diverted to a near-by gliding field which was down-wind of the weather and had an into wind runway. The parachutist', who as any of you who have done para-flying will know, rarely give the pilots much respect or slack, were very happy with my decision!
They had sat through previous landings with me in rough conditions so they knew I can handle it but I think that approach had them a little worried as it was so rough.
It bol***ed up the afternoons schedule but who cares?
As it happens I was told that evening by the CFI of the flying club on the same airfield that 'I chose the worst moment to land, if I had tried again I wouldn't have had a problem' but I'm still happy with my decision. Landing a light aircraft (no weather radar, no iceing protection) on the edge of a CB would not have been fun and whilst we obviously carry reserves we don't have that much fuel on board with para opps.
Maybe its not quite the same as airline operations with slot pressures and large finacial implications to every decision but the princibles the same. Incidently isn't it strange how these desicions come easier with increasing experience?
Last edited by Jump Complete; 22nd May 2003 at 22:49.
So far, I've only experienced light turbulence in the back -- and quite a few occasions of moderate turbulence in light a/c.
Light turbulence in the upper regime of what is officially defined as light gets a LOT of attention in the back.
I've had a passenger confess to me after a flight where I experienced nothing untowards great relief after surviving what they considered nasty turbulence when it was nothing more than a few bumps that I felt unworthy of comment. And that passenger during the flight sitting next to me was puttting up a brave, silent front, even though concerned.
A cabin going through moderate turbulence would not be a sight for the fainthearted.
Light turbulence in the upper regime of what is officially defined as light gets a LOT of attention in the back.
I've had a passenger confess to me after a flight where I experienced nothing untowards great relief after surviving what they considered nasty turbulence when it was nothing more than a few bumps that I felt unworthy of comment. And that passenger during the flight sitting next to me was puttting up a brave, silent front, even though concerned.
A cabin going through moderate turbulence would not be a sight for the fainthearted.
My comments about the 1011 on "final" approach to DFW were there because it was the only weather accident for which I could remember more than one or two general facts. Any aircraft certainly has far less energy on takeoff roll than during final approach-and no ATC slots. Also, on some aircraft the windshear computers work very slowly when flaps/slats are in transit.
A recent commentary about some general aviation accidents in "Flying" magazine (US) stated that pilots find it harder to divert [or go-around?] when approaching their home airport, which by itself can be a very different topic, but "get-home-itis" can influence a pilot's judgement at anytime on the last leg of a trip. Never mind the other pilot who has a tight connection to commute home-but that's too bad for him/her. Don't let them bug you, whether the other person is the Captain or not. Do a large percentage of pilots with foreign airlines commute by air or a long train ride?
A recent commentary about some general aviation accidents in "Flying" magazine (US) stated that pilots find it harder to divert [or go-around?] when approaching their home airport, which by itself can be a very different topic, but "get-home-itis" can influence a pilot's judgement at anytime on the last leg of a trip. Never mind the other pilot who has a tight connection to commute home-but that's too bad for him/her. Don't let them bug you, whether the other person is the Captain or not. Do a large percentage of pilots with foreign airlines commute by air or a long train ride?
ReverserUnlocked
Re. the DFW L1011, as regards the survivability, if you have the opportunity, watch the AA training video dealing with microbursts etc. It looks at that accident from the hindsight viewpoint of the flight recorder outputs - in particular the readouts of alpha AND energy. From that standpoint, the conclusion has to be that the incident was TECHNICALLY recoverable, however, there was (of course) NO alpha readout available to the crew and the IAS was up and down like a professional lady on pay night.
Together with the other four segments of that training series, it ought to be required viewing for all heavy crews - if only to engender the sort of discussion which is going on here.
Re. the DFW L1011, as regards the survivability, if you have the opportunity, watch the AA training video dealing with microbursts etc. It looks at that accident from the hindsight viewpoint of the flight recorder outputs - in particular the readouts of alpha AND energy. From that standpoint, the conclusion has to be that the incident was TECHNICALLY recoverable, however, there was (of course) NO alpha readout available to the crew and the IAS was up and down like a professional lady on pay night.
Together with the other four segments of that training series, it ought to be required viewing for all heavy crews - if only to engender the sort of discussion which is going on here.
Thread Starter
I have been floating around the skies for the last 8 days and so I have only just caught up with the thread.
Burger Thing:
My only motive is a flight safety motive. I am simply interested in what makes pilots tick.
Flight Safety:
I thought your posting was excellent. Certainly it should make people think and this is surely the object of the exercise.
PaxBoy:
I have only experienced ball lightning inside the aircraft once. It happened to me about 35 years ago over the Masif in France. As you know, it is a harmless phenomenon (as far as damaging human beings is concerned) but it certainly gets your attention!
Apart from raising the hairs on the back of the neck the other thing that I vividly remember was that all the dust and sh*t that had been hiding behind the instrument panels etc for years ended up in suspension so we all ended up coughing and sneezing!
Burger Thing:
My only motive is a flight safety motive. I am simply interested in what makes pilots tick.
Flight Safety:
I thought your posting was excellent. Certainly it should make people think and this is surely the object of the exercise.
PaxBoy:
I have only experienced ball lightning inside the aircraft once. It happened to me about 35 years ago over the Masif in France. As you know, it is a harmless phenomenon (as far as damaging human beings is concerned) but it certainly gets your attention!
Apart from raising the hairs on the back of the neck the other thing that I vividly remember was that all the dust and sh*t that had been hiding behind the instrument panels etc for years ended up in suspension so we all ended up coughing and sneezing!
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well, funny how that happens isn't it.
For those of you who are happy to blunder blindly off into the maelstrom have a look at the thread entitled hailstones and maybe you will think twice next time.
For those of you who are happy to blunder blindly off into the maelstrom have a look at the thread entitled hailstones and maybe you will think twice next time.
Thread Starter
kinsman:
I was flying 4-engined turboprops at the time and we were usually stuck around 15,000 feet or even lower. The weather radar was not very reliable and it seemed that it was the first casualty if lightning was around.
We were headed northbound from Malta at night and were over the Masif in France surrounded by nasty weather. There was a bit of a bang and there was this orange/red incandescent ball (about the size of a football) in the cockpit moving aft. It then went backwards through the cabin and disappeared out the back according to the loadmaster.
I freely admit that I was somewhat taken aback by this turn of events but my hoary old captain assured me that it was harmless.
Afterwards, the loadmaster was adamant that he had watched it come down the the starboard wing before entering the aircraft.
I have subsequently met a few pilots who have experienced the phenomena. I suppose it might have been more common in those days due to the heights we were flying at?
I was flying 4-engined turboprops at the time and we were usually stuck around 15,000 feet or even lower. The weather radar was not very reliable and it seemed that it was the first casualty if lightning was around.
We were headed northbound from Malta at night and were over the Masif in France surrounded by nasty weather. There was a bit of a bang and there was this orange/red incandescent ball (about the size of a football) in the cockpit moving aft. It then went backwards through the cabin and disappeared out the back according to the loadmaster.
I freely admit that I was somewhat taken aback by this turn of events but my hoary old captain assured me that it was harmless.
Afterwards, the loadmaster was adamant that he had watched it come down the the starboard wing before entering the aircraft.
I have subsequently met a few pilots who have experienced the phenomena. I suppose it might have been more common in those days due to the heights we were flying at?
