Flight Deck Access
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Swanwick
Flight Deck Access
I am an ATC "bod" based at Swanwick. This afternoon my colleagues and I were discussing if it would be possible to visit or travel on the flightdeck during a flight post Sept 11th, most of us are regular air travellers and have more than a passing interest in what goes on at the "pointy end" and certainly in the past have been made very welcome and we have been able to discuss matters of mutual interest. If we were to turn up as passengers with ATC licences, letters of introduction, Swanwick IDs or similar things would that allow the Captain of the aircraft to permit us to travel on the flightdeck without compromising SOPs and/or company regulations?.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 120
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From: British Isles
Sadly the answer is no, except by prior arrangement.
I know that my employer (Big Airways) are all for ATC visits. It's always great to meet you guys.
Nothing left to common sense anymore, can't even let my wife or kids on the flightdeck.
ATB, PTC
PS: Had a sewing kit taken off me at security the other day, just in case I stitched someone to death? But my pen (5 inches long, sharp point, nestles nicely in the palm with 2 inches protruding)was ok. mightier than the needle perhaps?
PPS: Very few of my colleagues have any respect for these regulations.
PPPS: The Tel Aviv suicide bomber (ex LHR employee) could have technically gained flightdeck access as an airline pass holder, but not my wife and kids
Where's the sense in all this? Leave it to the people who know?
I know that my employer (Big Airways) are all for ATC visits. It's always great to meet you guys.
Nothing left to common sense anymore, can't even let my wife or kids on the flightdeck.
ATB, PTC
PS: Had a sewing kit taken off me at security the other day, just in case I stitched someone to death? But my pen (5 inches long, sharp point, nestles nicely in the palm with 2 inches protruding)was ok. mightier than the needle perhaps?
PPS: Very few of my colleagues have any respect for these regulations.
PPPS: The Tel Aviv suicide bomber (ex LHR employee) could have technically gained flightdeck access as an airline pass holder, but not my wife and kids
Where's the sense in all this? Leave it to the people who know?
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
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From: somewhere
What about the incident with pop duo "The Cheeky Girls" gaining access to the flightdeck, after the captain invited them.
Apparently, according to The Sun, the aircraft then started "going all over the place" in the words of a passenger.
The airline was KLM, the aircraft was a Fokker Twin Prop with 100 PAX onboard at the time. Both pilots may be fired for misconduct.
Quite rightly so - and besides - I doubt that two singers who earn a living by shaking their bums while signing are interested in how an aircraft is flown, but rather some little boy up the back who wants to be a pilot could gain a lot more from the experience.
Apparently, according to The Sun, the aircraft then started "going all over the place" in the words of a passenger.
The airline was KLM, the aircraft was a Fokker Twin Prop with 100 PAX onboard at the time. Both pilots may be fired for misconduct.
Quite rightly so - and besides - I doubt that two singers who earn a living by shaking their bums while signing are interested in how an aircraft is flown, but rather some little boy up the back who wants to be a pilot could gain a lot more from the experience.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
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From: somewhere
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=88529
See related topic here. There obviously has been a spot of lousy reporting as, to quote a post mentioned on the thread:
As posted by MerchantVenturer
Also, see The Sun article in full at their website here:-
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003200430,00.html
See related topic here. There obviously has been a spot of lousy reporting as, to quote a post mentioned on the thread:
I've just read the story on the Sun's website and far more worrying to me is the fact that apparently 100 passengers were on board this Fokker 50.
Also, see The Sun article in full at their website here:-
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003200430,00.html
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 207
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From: Hello Kitty City
"...a spot of lousy reporting...." Andrew M, you have made my day!
Lousy reporting is SOP now-days....after seeing so many blatant c@ckups (& over dramatisation) in Aviation reports I find it impossible to believe anything I read esp on subjects I know v little about.
The global scaremongering about SARs is another example of the sort of bias and drama that is best left for a soap opera.
The modern press have about as much respect as used car salesman.
Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.
Lousy reporting is SOP now-days....after seeing so many blatant c@ckups (& over dramatisation) in Aviation reports I find it impossible to believe anything I read esp on subjects I know v little about.
The global scaremongering about SARs is another example of the sort of bias and drama that is best left for a soap opera.
The modern press have about as much respect as used car salesman.
Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,790
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From: UK
"Monarch - should be OK with a phone call first."
Not quite sure how this squares with the new regulations that ONLY permit,
1. OPERATING crew.
2. CAA Inspectors / Examiners or Company Auditors / QA.
3. Training Capts on jump seat for Line Check etc
4. Engineers (authorized by DFO) for flight test.
5. No-one else!
I would like to think that an exemption could be granted for an ATC famil but hey, I'm confident that this has been extensively thought through and the best decision has been arrived at by the relevent authority to minimise the risk to all concerned..........
A4
Not quite sure how this squares with the new regulations that ONLY permit,
1. OPERATING crew.
2. CAA Inspectors / Examiners or Company Auditors / QA.
3. Training Capts on jump seat for Line Check etc
4. Engineers (authorized by DFO) for flight test.
5. No-one else!
I would like to think that an exemption could be granted for an ATC famil but hey, I'm confident that this has been extensively thought through and the best decision has been arrived at by the relevent authority to minimise the risk to all concerned..........
A4
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 108
Likes: 1
From: ATLANTIS
If I was flying around in a F50 with 100 pax on board, I would have ordered the Cheeky Girls in the cockpit to get an in-trim situation at least during approach&landing
In our company we permit ATCOs on the flightdeck, but this is always arranged via flight-department. In return we have had very nice receptions at the various ATC-units in Europe. It works great for enhancing mutual understanding.
Greetz, QTA
In our company we permit ATCOs on the flightdeck, but this is always arranged via flight-department. In return we have had very nice receptions at the various ATC-units in Europe. It works great for enhancing mutual understanding.
Greetz, QTA
I'm Just A Lawnmower
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
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From: Over the hills and faraway
There have been tentative attempts to re-introduce fam flights for ATCO's - a friend of mine recently did a EGPF-EGLL trip 'up front' with BA. This was, however, arranged in advance through official channels. The good old days of announcing your occupation to the cheif hosty when you got on board and being allowed access to the flight deck as and when you wanted it are, alas, gone.
I believe that some sort of official fam flight scheme may be introduced after the summer but we will need to wait and see.
I believe that some sort of official fam flight scheme may be introduced after the summer but we will need to wait and see.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
Flight saftey a poor second !
It is the start of something very wrong when ATC staff cant get a jumpseat trip and for them to be vectoring aircraft around the sky without the first idea of the conditions and cockpit workload is a danger to all of us and the traveling public and so a number of flight deck flights should be part of the training.
The nub of the problem is that a bunch of civil servants and MP,s are making up the rules about a subject on which they have next to no knowledge.
It is my opinion that the CAA are fighting the security people on this one but unfortunatly goverment stupidity will always win.
The security risk of ATC staff on the flight deck (almost nill ) should be balanced with the risk to all flights of part trained controlers.
The nub of the problem is that a bunch of civil servants and MP,s are making up the rules about a subject on which they have next to no knowledge.
It is my opinion that the CAA are fighting the security people on this one but unfortunatly goverment stupidity will always win.
The security risk of ATC staff on the flight deck (almost nill ) should be balanced with the risk to all flights of part trained controlers.
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 818
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I agree totally with A and C.
Personally I think the experience gained with a fam flight trip is wholly invaluable. At my unit they're attemtping to make up for the lack of any scheme with flight sim time - on yes, you've guessed it, MS Flight Sim.
That's almost laughable as far as I'm concerned, not in terms of management attempting anything to demonstrate the realities of flying though - all we have is flight sim - at least they're trying something!
I was informed a few weeks ago that BA we re-introducing fam flights for ATCOs on a trial basis - not sure how that went or what the outcome was?
I miss my fam flights and I fear for the current student intake (or rather the intake that will follow the recruitment freeze) as they will have no flying training at all at the CATC - and even no fam flight to see things from the sharp end.
Worrying indeed.
Personally I think the experience gained with a fam flight trip is wholly invaluable. At my unit they're attemtping to make up for the lack of any scheme with flight sim time - on yes, you've guessed it, MS Flight Sim.
That's almost laughable as far as I'm concerned, not in terms of management attempting anything to demonstrate the realities of flying though - all we have is flight sim - at least they're trying something!
I was informed a few weeks ago that BA we re-introducing fam flights for ATCOs on a trial basis - not sure how that went or what the outcome was?
I miss my fam flights and I fear for the current student intake (or rather the intake that will follow the recruitment freeze) as they will have no flying training at all at the CATC - and even no fam flight to see things from the sharp end.
Worrying indeed.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 59
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From: Swanwick
The irony of this situation is that because of the quasi-military nature of some of their work, particularly at ATC centres, ATC staff are security vetted and party to the Official Secrets Act. I would like to suggest that ATC staff have a higher security rating than some of the airline crews themselves.
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