View Poll Results: What do you think about arming pilots?
Useful addition to the prevetion of hijacking
139
20.14%
Useless. They should concentrate on getting the aircraft on the ground
465
67.39%
I think our (non US) pilots should also be armed
95
13.77%
I have no opinion
16
2.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 690. This poll is closed
Armed Pilots (Merged)
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Armed Pilots
Pilots prepare to arm and defend
After rugged training, new aviation era could begin Sunday
Pilots take part in gun training at a Glynco, Ga., facility in April. Those who qualify will be able to carry .40-caliber semiautomatic pistols on flights starting Sunday.
By Sara Kehaulani Goo
THE WASHINGTON POST
GLYNCO, Ga., April 17 — Seated in a classroom chair that served as a simulated cockpit, the 25-year veteran captain of a major airline raised a red plastic gun in two hands and twisted to his side to confront his assailant.
WITHIN SECONDS, the pilot was locked in a tug of war for the weapon in a scenario envisioned to take place at 30,000 feet in a space the size of two bathroom stalls.
“Nobody knew how tough it would be,” said the weapons trainee, a Boeing 767 pilot who was not allowed to give his name for security reasons. He and 45 other commercial pilots had spent days in a padded room practicing physical combat techniques, emerging with bruises and scrapes on their hands, knees and elbows. “It’s brutal work,” he said.
The volunteer group was taking part in the first training program to certify pilots to carry guns in the cockpit. Those who qualify will be able to fly with their .40-caliber semiautomatic pistols holstered to their bodies by as early as Sunday. The weapons program is the latest in a series of security measures since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist hijackings that are changing the nature of American air travel.
The pilots are learning a range of tactics, including shooting over the shoulder, a maneuver that worries some security experts.
• Airline security special report
• Armed pilots must put guns in lockboxes
“If you’re shooting over your shoulder while the cockpit door is open, there’s a good chance you’re going to miss,” said Doug Laird, a Nevada-based security consultant who used to run Northwest Airlines’ security division. “If you miss, where is that round going? It’s going into the cabin.”
TRAINING KEPT A SECRET
In the new uncertain skies, airline passengers never know whether a bank executive or an undercover armed federal marshal is seated next to them. Travelers also have grown accustomed to federal security screeners rummaging through their luggage. In an added mystery, pilots will not reveal to passengers whether they are armed.
Not even the pilots’ own employers, the airlines, know if a pilot is in the training program. Once the pilot passes the course and is armed, he or she must notify the airline within 24 hours of flying.
First, the volunteers must pass a battery of tests, including a thorough background check, a psychological evaluation, and classroom exams on liability and legal rules. The pilots also must graduate from precision firearms training by the end of the week. Just days into the program, two pilots dropped out, for reasons the federal government won’t discuss.
Inside classrooms and outside at the bug-infested firearms range here at the sprawling Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, pilots are learning to shoot from the same instructors who teach sky marshals and other federal agents before they are deputized.
Pilots have lobbied aggressively for the program, insisting it was their duty to protect the cockpit with a lethal weapon. Congress overwhelming passed a bill last fall that gave any airline pilot the option to train and become an armed “federal flight deck officer.”
“This is the first time we have done something like this,” said Robert Johnson, a spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration. He added that the program will evolve and probably change after the first group has finished. “We are going to learn as we go.”
Trainees who were interviewed today said they volunteered because they believe only a gun would help them protect their aircraft, for which they feel personally responsible.
One female pilot who has flown for a major airline for 14 years said she appreciates the reinforced cockpit door and the better screening of passengers and luggage. “But the ultimate link in that safety chain is me,” she said. “And I need to defend myself and my aircraft.”
Johnson said armed pilots will not reveal their identities for their own safety and as an element of deterrence to terrorists who might try to break into the cockpit.
NEED FOR TRAINING QUESTIONED
‘If you’re shooting over your shoulder while the cockpit door is open, there’s a good chance you’re going to miss. If you miss, where is that round going? It’s going into the cabin.’
— DOUG LAIRD
security consultant Some security experts said that heightened precautions in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks make arming pilots unnecessary. Congress passed the law allowing guns in the cockpit at a time before federal security screeners had taken up posts at every airport checkpoint in the nation and before passenger luggage was screened for explosives. Earlier this month, airlines were required to super-reinforce cockpit doors with a strengthened material throughout the door — not just with a metal bar as was required after Sept. 11.
Pilots will be trained on Saturday in firing over the shoulder. “The threat is probably every time coming from behind” the pilot, Johnson of the TSA said. “It literally is shooting with limited information to stop the target.”
Johnson said the pilots will use paintball guns to learn a variety of tactics for shooting over the shoulder.
Laird, the former Northwest security chief, wondered whether arming pilots won’t do more harm than good. He said pilots already have a crash ax they keep in the cockpit, which could be used to fend off an intruder. Using a gun at close range creates the opportunity for an assailant to grab the pilot’s weapon, he said. “When they talk about firing at point-blank range you’ve got a problem, because if the person is that close to you he’ll probably grab the firearm,” Laird said.
A former chief executive for Israel’s El Al, which is considered one of the most secure airlines in the world, said his carrier considered arming pilots but decided it was better to protect the whole plane instead. That meant training flight attendants, adding air marshals and reinforcing cockpit doors.
“Pilots themselves may feel safer with guns in the cockpit,” said Joel Feldschuh, former El Al chief executive and now president of security consulting firm GS-3. “But ensuring the safety of the entire cabin, nose to tail, should be the priority. Arming pilots on U.S. planes will be just one part of that overall solution.”
‘This is the first time we have done something like this. We are going to learn as we go.’
— ROBERT JOHNSON
Transportation Security Administration Flight attendants also are concerned. They still fear that a terrorist in the cabin could attack passengers, and they have received only a few hours of training in how to defend themselves and enlist the help of travelers.
“There are going to be pilots with guns, and flight attendants will not have been trained on how a pilot is going to react in a certain situation with a gun,” said Jeff Zack, spokesman for the Association of Flight Attendants. “We won’t even know if they will come out of the cockpit” if there’s a disturbance in the cabin, he said.
FOR TSA, CAUTIOUS STEPS
The TSA said it recognizes there are many possible dangerous scenarios and is moving cautiously in arming the pilots. The training probably will evolve as the agency learns more and gets feedback from pilots and law enforcement personnel.
The TSA is using $500,000 to fund the program and has asked for $25 million next fiscal year to continue it. The agency is aiming to begin a full-scale program by mid-July, but the number of pilots it will be able to train — at a cost of $6,200 each — will depend largely on how much it gets from Congress.
The agency’s approach has calmed some critics of the program — principally at the airlines — who opposed the idea while it was being debated in Congress. Some said they are now more comfortable with the program because they don’t have to pay for it and it seems the TSA is moving cautiously.
Some security experts said that heightened precautions in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks make arming pilots unnecessary.
United Airlines’ Hank Krakowski, who heads the airline’s safety and security division, said he would prefer that United pilots carry non-lethal stun guns, which emit electric shocks. But United has five pilots attending the TSA’s training program and, from what he has heard so far, Krakowski said he approves of the way the TSA is going about it.
John Hotard, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the carrier approved of the program, particularly since it doesn’t have to pay for it. Airlines also are exempt from liability if a pilot accidentally shoots a bystander on board.
Researcher Margaret Smith in Washington contributed to this report.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
After rugged training, new aviation era could begin Sunday
Pilots take part in gun training at a Glynco, Ga., facility in April. Those who qualify will be able to carry .40-caliber semiautomatic pistols on flights starting Sunday.
By Sara Kehaulani Goo
THE WASHINGTON POST
GLYNCO, Ga., April 17 — Seated in a classroom chair that served as a simulated cockpit, the 25-year veteran captain of a major airline raised a red plastic gun in two hands and twisted to his side to confront his assailant.
WITHIN SECONDS, the pilot was locked in a tug of war for the weapon in a scenario envisioned to take place at 30,000 feet in a space the size of two bathroom stalls.
“Nobody knew how tough it would be,” said the weapons trainee, a Boeing 767 pilot who was not allowed to give his name for security reasons. He and 45 other commercial pilots had spent days in a padded room practicing physical combat techniques, emerging with bruises and scrapes on their hands, knees and elbows. “It’s brutal work,” he said.
The volunteer group was taking part in the first training program to certify pilots to carry guns in the cockpit. Those who qualify will be able to fly with their .40-caliber semiautomatic pistols holstered to their bodies by as early as Sunday. The weapons program is the latest in a series of security measures since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist hijackings that are changing the nature of American air travel.
The pilots are learning a range of tactics, including shooting over the shoulder, a maneuver that worries some security experts.
• Airline security special report
• Armed pilots must put guns in lockboxes
“If you’re shooting over your shoulder while the cockpit door is open, there’s a good chance you’re going to miss,” said Doug Laird, a Nevada-based security consultant who used to run Northwest Airlines’ security division. “If you miss, where is that round going? It’s going into the cabin.”
TRAINING KEPT A SECRET
In the new uncertain skies, airline passengers never know whether a bank executive or an undercover armed federal marshal is seated next to them. Travelers also have grown accustomed to federal security screeners rummaging through their luggage. In an added mystery, pilots will not reveal to passengers whether they are armed.
Not even the pilots’ own employers, the airlines, know if a pilot is in the training program. Once the pilot passes the course and is armed, he or she must notify the airline within 24 hours of flying.
First, the volunteers must pass a battery of tests, including a thorough background check, a psychological evaluation, and classroom exams on liability and legal rules. The pilots also must graduate from precision firearms training by the end of the week. Just days into the program, two pilots dropped out, for reasons the federal government won’t discuss.
Inside classrooms and outside at the bug-infested firearms range here at the sprawling Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, pilots are learning to shoot from the same instructors who teach sky marshals and other federal agents before they are deputized.
Pilots have lobbied aggressively for the program, insisting it was their duty to protect the cockpit with a lethal weapon. Congress overwhelming passed a bill last fall that gave any airline pilot the option to train and become an armed “federal flight deck officer.”
“This is the first time we have done something like this,” said Robert Johnson, a spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration. He added that the program will evolve and probably change after the first group has finished. “We are going to learn as we go.”
Trainees who were interviewed today said they volunteered because they believe only a gun would help them protect their aircraft, for which they feel personally responsible.
One female pilot who has flown for a major airline for 14 years said she appreciates the reinforced cockpit door and the better screening of passengers and luggage. “But the ultimate link in that safety chain is me,” she said. “And I need to defend myself and my aircraft.”
Johnson said armed pilots will not reveal their identities for their own safety and as an element of deterrence to terrorists who might try to break into the cockpit.
NEED FOR TRAINING QUESTIONED
‘If you’re shooting over your shoulder while the cockpit door is open, there’s a good chance you’re going to miss. If you miss, where is that round going? It’s going into the cabin.’
— DOUG LAIRD
security consultant Some security experts said that heightened precautions in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks make arming pilots unnecessary. Congress passed the law allowing guns in the cockpit at a time before federal security screeners had taken up posts at every airport checkpoint in the nation and before passenger luggage was screened for explosives. Earlier this month, airlines were required to super-reinforce cockpit doors with a strengthened material throughout the door — not just with a metal bar as was required after Sept. 11.
Pilots will be trained on Saturday in firing over the shoulder. “The threat is probably every time coming from behind” the pilot, Johnson of the TSA said. “It literally is shooting with limited information to stop the target.”
Johnson said the pilots will use paintball guns to learn a variety of tactics for shooting over the shoulder.
Laird, the former Northwest security chief, wondered whether arming pilots won’t do more harm than good. He said pilots already have a crash ax they keep in the cockpit, which could be used to fend off an intruder. Using a gun at close range creates the opportunity for an assailant to grab the pilot’s weapon, he said. “When they talk about firing at point-blank range you’ve got a problem, because if the person is that close to you he’ll probably grab the firearm,” Laird said.
A former chief executive for Israel’s El Al, which is considered one of the most secure airlines in the world, said his carrier considered arming pilots but decided it was better to protect the whole plane instead. That meant training flight attendants, adding air marshals and reinforcing cockpit doors.
“Pilots themselves may feel safer with guns in the cockpit,” said Joel Feldschuh, former El Al chief executive and now president of security consulting firm GS-3. “But ensuring the safety of the entire cabin, nose to tail, should be the priority. Arming pilots on U.S. planes will be just one part of that overall solution.”
‘This is the first time we have done something like this. We are going to learn as we go.’
— ROBERT JOHNSON
Transportation Security Administration Flight attendants also are concerned. They still fear that a terrorist in the cabin could attack passengers, and they have received only a few hours of training in how to defend themselves and enlist the help of travelers.
“There are going to be pilots with guns, and flight attendants will not have been trained on how a pilot is going to react in a certain situation with a gun,” said Jeff Zack, spokesman for the Association of Flight Attendants. “We won’t even know if they will come out of the cockpit” if there’s a disturbance in the cabin, he said.
FOR TSA, CAUTIOUS STEPS
The TSA said it recognizes there are many possible dangerous scenarios and is moving cautiously in arming the pilots. The training probably will evolve as the agency learns more and gets feedback from pilots and law enforcement personnel.
The TSA is using $500,000 to fund the program and has asked for $25 million next fiscal year to continue it. The agency is aiming to begin a full-scale program by mid-July, but the number of pilots it will be able to train — at a cost of $6,200 each — will depend largely on how much it gets from Congress.
The agency’s approach has calmed some critics of the program — principally at the airlines — who opposed the idea while it was being debated in Congress. Some said they are now more comfortable with the program because they don’t have to pay for it and it seems the TSA is moving cautiously.
Some security experts said that heightened precautions in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks make arming pilots unnecessary.
United Airlines’ Hank Krakowski, who heads the airline’s safety and security division, said he would prefer that United pilots carry non-lethal stun guns, which emit electric shocks. But United has five pilots attending the TSA’s training program and, from what he has heard so far, Krakowski said he approves of the way the TSA is going about it.
John Hotard, a spokesman for American Airlines, said the carrier approved of the program, particularly since it doesn’t have to pay for it. Airlines also are exempt from liability if a pilot accidentally shoots a bystander on board.
Researcher Margaret Smith in Washington contributed to this report.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
Anyone want to take bets on how long it will be before a gun is discharged accidently or in circumstances other than a possible breach of the flighdeck?. Guns out when you go to the loo?, Guns out when the door is opened to bring in lunch or a coffee?. First "friendly fire" victim is likely to be one of the cabin staff.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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IFALPA and the majority of pilots worldwide are against arming pilots for very good reasons.
Maybe the US are different because their pilot ancestors were required to carry guns until about WW2 to protect the federal mail bags.....
If every one of the 100.000 pilots worldwide carries a gun there are 100.000 more guns on flight decks than there are now. Given this number a certain percentage of accidents is inevitable. Sitting strapped to a forward-facing chair you are at a disadvantage against any attacker from the outset, so even non-lethal stun guns won't be a big help.
For some reason the USA don't see the math that the large number of gun-related crimes is directly connected to the easy availability of guns....
BTW, there's a good novel called THE TRIGGER co-authored by Arthur C. Clarke on the subject of firearms.
Maybe the US are different because their pilot ancestors were required to carry guns until about WW2 to protect the federal mail bags.....
If every one of the 100.000 pilots worldwide carries a gun there are 100.000 more guns on flight decks than there are now. Given this number a certain percentage of accidents is inevitable. Sitting strapped to a forward-facing chair you are at a disadvantage against any attacker from the outset, so even non-lethal stun guns won't be a big help.
For some reason the USA don't see the math that the large number of gun-related crimes is directly connected to the easy availability of guns....
BTW, there's a good novel called THE TRIGGER co-authored by Arthur C. Clarke on the subject of firearms.
As long as it's ALWAYS strapped to the bearer, and only leaves the holster to be used in anger, I'll feel a lot better on board.
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Alpine I dont agree with your idea of the math where as Americans and the availability of guns produce more gun related crimes! No way!
Since congress passed legislation allowing anyone with a small training course to carry a weapon on their person gun related crimes have dropped in the USA.
The average criminal now thinks twice before entering someones home or vehicle to do harm.
Being a lifetime member of the National rifle association the strongest lobby in the USA helped get this passed.
Pilots carrying guns may not have helped on Sept 11, or would it?
The hijackers may have dropped the whole idea if they knew in advance that they would meet trained armed resistance.
Thank God that I live in a country where we still have the right to own and carry a firearm.
Is that what bothers you the most?
Since congress passed legislation allowing anyone with a small training course to carry a weapon on their person gun related crimes have dropped in the USA.
The average criminal now thinks twice before entering someones home or vehicle to do harm.
Being a lifetime member of the National rifle association the strongest lobby in the USA helped get this passed.
Pilots carrying guns may not have helped on Sept 11, or would it?
The hijackers may have dropped the whole idea if they knew in advance that they would meet trained armed resistance.
Thank God that I live in a country where we still have the right to own and carry a firearm.
Is that what bothers you the most?
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Armed Pilots
So it,s a sad day for the aviation Industry when we have (US) to Arm pilots . Another Knee -Jerk reaction, In an Knee Jerk Goverment. No thought Has been given to this dangerous programme, I am not anti American mearly anti-Gun on aircraft, The basic security implications of storage ,ammunition types(cos some will choose their own) no matter what the rule book say,s How many Negligent discharges of firearms will we have in the cockpit (no such thing as an accidental disharge). having spent a large percentage of my working life round firearms and a/c , the two should never be intoduced to each other. 18 months ago i had to seperate 2 pilots beating 10 bells out of each other in a cockpit, had they been armed ? who knows what would have happened. so we can forget all the knives, cutlery knitting needles cos the pilots got a gun, last line of defence I dont think so?. I wont be using their services back to BA me thinks
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Most of the terrorist groups all ask that the USA stay out of their particular countries. Perhaps if uncle Sam would mind his own buisness and stop worrying about who has what in their country, the world would be a more peaceful place. I don't care what my neibor has in his closet, and he shouldn't care what I have in mine. Don't forget who dropped the bomb, and placed most of the weapons of mass destruction in the hands of these terrorists, and helped them get to the place of power in the first place.
Guns, planes, and pilots don't mix. Don't forget that it was a sofisticated group that did September 11th, and next time they want to make a statement they will. Guns in the cockpit or not. I'd be more affraid of a missile attack on take-off. Or maybe catching a deadly flu.
Guns, planes, and pilots don't mix. Don't forget that it was a sofisticated group that did September 11th, and next time they want to make a statement they will. Guns in the cockpit or not. I'd be more affraid of a missile attack on take-off. Or maybe catching a deadly flu.
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So after all ........
the efforts to improve security at airports around the world, now we are helping the terrorists by putting guns on board for them.
I for one will not be using an airline that has any firearms in the cabin or flight deck.
Unbelieveable!
SoS
the efforts to improve security at airports around the world, now we are helping the terrorists by putting guns on board for them.
I for one will not be using an airline that has any firearms in the cabin or flight deck.
Unbelieveable!
SoS
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USAF transport pilots have been carrying guns for years as anti hijacking procedures.
Not one accidental discharge of a firearm ever.
Know all about it, done it for years.
These guns will probably never be drawn.
The fact they are there will be enough.
On the comment of 2 crew members fighting, I would not allow them to carry either.
They should not even be flying if they are that unstable.
On the comment of the USA looking in everyones closet, thats life, get used to it.
Sure their will be more to come.
Not one accidental discharge of a firearm ever.
Know all about it, done it for years.
These guns will probably never be drawn.
The fact they are there will be enough.
On the comment of 2 crew members fighting, I would not allow them to carry either.
They should not even be flying if they are that unstable.
On the comment of the USA looking in everyones closet, thats life, get used to it.
Sure their will be more to come.
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Given the frequency with which fatalities and serious injury result in relation to gun use, even by highly trained professionals like the military (even under closely supervised conditions on the training ranges, never mind an unpredictable and adrenaline pumped life-or-death scenario), I think we will be seeing a spate of cock ups and accidents involving reactionary pilots which will lead to the legislation being withdrawn inside 12 months.
Will armed pilots only operate on domestic US sectors? Can't imagine how they would want to go to the hassle and expense of complying with - say - UK firearms legislation were they to land in LHR. As soon as the doors open they would become a criminal...
Honest question.
WWW
Honest question.
WWW
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Armed Pilots
No Thankyou.
A gun in the wrong hands on board a/c is asking for trouble. The Pilot may have it in a locked cabinet but if the terrorist overpowers him(Dont forget terrorists have nothing to loose) this puts the safety of the a/c in danger. Plus we all know what sort of record the Americans have on "Frendley Fire Incidents" dont we.
Paul
A gun in the wrong hands on board a/c is asking for trouble. The Pilot may have it in a locked cabinet but if the terrorist overpowers him(Dont forget terrorists have nothing to loose) this puts the safety of the a/c in danger. Plus we all know what sort of record the Americans have on "Frendley Fire Incidents" dont we.
Paul
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>>Will armed pilots only operate on domestic US sectors? Can't imagine how they would want to go to the hassle and expense of complying with - say - UK firearms legislation were they to land in LHR. As soon as the doors open they would become a criminal...<<
Don't know how familiar you are with UK firearms laws but several air carriers operate into LHR with weapons and comply with local regulations. El Al is the most visible but there are others...
I'm not crazy about the guns myself but I have operated into LHR with armed crewmembers.
Don't know how familiar you are with UK firearms laws but several air carriers operate into LHR with weapons and comply with local regulations. El Al is the most visible but there are others...
I'm not crazy about the guns myself but I have operated into LHR with armed crewmembers.
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In the case of the Military the weapons are locked in a secure location and remain on the aircraft during night stops.
If they, the locals have some sort of amory or police station then they are checked and reclaimed prior to departure.
Many times I have walked through civilian airports and only had to show my military concealed weapons permit.
Never a problem.
Sure the airlines have all of this worked out.
International flights, embassy runs etc.
If they, the locals have some sort of amory or police station then they are checked and reclaimed prior to departure.
Many times I have walked through civilian airports and only had to show my military concealed weapons permit.
Never a problem.
Sure the airlines have all of this worked out.
International flights, embassy runs etc.
Completely stupid idea, coming from a hyper paranoid society hell bent on destroying everything they don't know anything about. If in doubt, shoot it.
Having spent the past two weeks on domestic US carriers and travelling through 15 of so US airports, the lack of obvious security was frightening so it's now not surprising aircrews are taking the law into their own hands, because that is what it is. A discharged weapon, a shot passenger, an injured crew member leaves debate open for a certain few valid arguements.
No thanks to flying in the USA again or on a US carrier
Having spent the past two weeks on domestic US carriers and travelling through 15 of so US airports, the lack of obvious security was frightening so it's now not surprising aircrews are taking the law into their own hands, because that is what it is. A discharged weapon, a shot passenger, an injured crew member leaves debate open for a certain few valid arguements.
No thanks to flying in the USA again or on a US carrier