A Question?...and a Warning! - - JOURNALISTS
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My deepest condolences to the family of the Reuters man.
To return to the thread:
"The Uk media has lost the plot. You stand for nothing, you support nothing, you criticise, you drip. It's a spectator sport to criticise anybody or anything, and what the media says fuels public expectation."
Air Marshall Sir Brian Burridge Commander of the British Forces
In todays Times.........
To return to the thread:
"The Uk media has lost the plot. You stand for nothing, you support nothing, you criticise, you drip. It's a spectator sport to criticise anybody or anything, and what the media says fuels public expectation."
Air Marshall Sir Brian Burridge Commander of the British Forces
In todays Times.........
Perhaps Raitfaiter you could define which bit of the media you don't like, then you can trade insults with anybody who works for them and the rest of us can stay out of it. For that matter do you know specifically what part of the media AM Burridge, a servant of our democracy, was referring to? I'm pretty certain it wasn't Air Clues for a start.
As a part-time writer for specialist aviation and engineering publications (plus once for a few outdoors magazines and briefly for C4 on Scrapheap Challenge), I've never been accused of the sort of perfidy that you feel is rife, so I can only assume that you mean somebody else.
Who?
On a totally different note, and specifically not directed at Raitfaiter - there are clearly a lot of us in Pprune that write full or part time on aviation. Is there a case here for a forum where we can discuss such issues as deadlines, style, rates, difficult editors, sourcing pictures, information sources and other subjects quite critical to writing about aviation well and profitably?
G
As a part-time writer for specialist aviation and engineering publications (plus once for a few outdoors magazines and briefly for C4 on Scrapheap Challenge), I've never been accused of the sort of perfidy that you feel is rife, so I can only assume that you mean somebody else.
Who?
On a totally different note, and specifically not directed at Raitfaiter - there are clearly a lot of us in Pprune that write full or part time on aviation. Is there a case here for a forum where we can discuss such issues as deadlines, style, rates, difficult editors, sourcing pictures, information sources and other subjects quite critical to writing about aviation well and profitably?
G
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Genghis
I'm sure there is a place for you journos to chat, but please god not on PPRuNe; how about a journo forum of some sort, more suited to such discussions? Apologies if that is what you actually meant. PPRuNe is increasingly crowded, it seems, and new PPRuNe fora should ideally be aviation based, doncha think? BTW that is purely my view.
Regarding the journos being killed in Iraq- I have great respect for their tenacity and dedication, but, frankly, if you want to report from the middle of chaotic battle situations, you have to expect casualties. The media these days want to get as close as possible to the action, and bring as much explosive force and viscera as possible to our screens. This really says more about us than it does about them, I guess. I am sure the armed forces only allow it because they want to use the pictures for their own purposes; ditto the Iraqi authorities. If you want to wander around a war zone with a camera crew, you need to have the same expectation of iminent death as the fighters do. Baghdad is now even more of a war zone than it was on day one; it is extremely dangerous to be there for anybody; some journalists will die if they stay there. I am astonished that anybody should find this surprising.
Perhaps the real question that needs to be asked, is how much is enough...
I also write on an occasional basis for different publications (none aviation-based), so can see it from both sides.
I'm sure there is a place for you journos to chat, but please god not on PPRuNe; how about a journo forum of some sort, more suited to such discussions? Apologies if that is what you actually meant. PPRuNe is increasingly crowded, it seems, and new PPRuNe fora should ideally be aviation based, doncha think? BTW that is purely my view.
Regarding the journos being killed in Iraq- I have great respect for their tenacity and dedication, but, frankly, if you want to report from the middle of chaotic battle situations, you have to expect casualties. The media these days want to get as close as possible to the action, and bring as much explosive force and viscera as possible to our screens. This really says more about us than it does about them, I guess. I am sure the armed forces only allow it because they want to use the pictures for their own purposes; ditto the Iraqi authorities. If you want to wander around a war zone with a camera crew, you need to have the same expectation of iminent death as the fighters do. Baghdad is now even more of a war zone than it was on day one; it is extremely dangerous to be there for anybody; some journalists will die if they stay there. I am astonished that anybody should find this surprising.
Perhaps the real question that needs to be asked, is how much is enough...
I also write on an occasional basis for different publications (none aviation-based), so can see it from both sides.
I agree with you 90% RawData, but speaking for myself only, I'm an Engineer first, an aviator second, and a writer third. Ultimately when I write, it's as an Aeronautical Engineer and Aviator - I call myself a writer occasionally, never a journalist. I'm guessing that this is true of most others here such as Irv or John Farley who are primarily very very able aviators, but also happen to write decent prose and get paid for it.
The closest I've been, or wanted to be, to the front line, was testing kit for the RAF roundabout the last bash. The closest I've been to Fleet Street is buying the Daily Telegraph on Thursdays when the Engineering jobs are in there.
G
N.B. the following has been doing the rounds for at-least a century, but is occasionally worth resurrection:-
One cannot hope to bribe or twist, thank God, the British journalist. But, seeing what the man will do, unbribed, there's no occasion to.
The closest I've been, or wanted to be, to the front line, was testing kit for the RAF roundabout the last bash. The closest I've been to Fleet Street is buying the Daily Telegraph on Thursdays when the Engineering jobs are in there.
G
N.B. the following has been doing the rounds for at-least a century, but is occasionally worth resurrection:-
One cannot hope to bribe or twist, thank God, the British journalist. But, seeing what the man will do, unbribed, there's no occasion to.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 9th Apr 2003 at 14:45.
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Dantruck:
"And I think you'll find editors avoid giving interviews to rivals more simply because they are rivals, not because they fear being misquoted or otherwise. You only have to turn on the telly to see newspaper editors talking to non-rival media."
Tosh. Of the current crop of editors, the only one who speaks to TV is Piers Morgan, and he's not going to be around for much longer. Editors avoid interviews because they are a no-win proposition - and not just for editors.
"And I think you'll find editors avoid giving interviews to rivals more simply because they are rivals, not because they fear being misquoted or otherwise. You only have to turn on the telly to see newspaper editors talking to non-rival media."
Tosh. Of the current crop of editors, the only one who speaks to TV is Piers Morgan, and he's not going to be around for much longer. Editors avoid interviews because they are a no-win proposition - and not just for editors.
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journalists and vermin ..what difference?
Any journalist who approaches innocent staff rather than going through "proper" channels (ie: contact company management/ PR reps) is clearly not having a care in the world about how badly he's trying to drop you into the dirt. These people are vermin and they're trying to bite you..so why be nice to them? Put a brick wall between you..tell him to take a hike and don't even help him by offering info about who to contact..let him do the work himself. Every piece of dialogue you offer can be published the next day.. eg: ."the staff we spoke to didn't even know the correct phone number for us to call..." etc.
I'd rather tell my boss that I told the press to go away rather than enter into any discussion whatsoever about who to call, how to contact..etc...then at least I'm blameless for any rubbish which is printed.
I'd rather tell my boss that I told the press to go away rather than enter into any discussion whatsoever about who to call, how to contact..etc...then at least I'm blameless for any rubbish which is printed.
IF I were a journalist I'd wish to speak to the PR department AND a cross (or Cross!!) section of employees.
As an employee I would not speak to/be videoed by any media rep unless I had full editorial control. Since I clearly will not have editorial control then . . .
. . turned up at *** one day to be told on ground intercom that the local TV crew would be coming up to video our shut-down procedures - replied "Yeah right - nobody boards the plane until I say so and that will be when we are just about to disembark!" Sounds a bit hard, doesn't it? Well I've seen people's well-meaning attempts to 'help' a TV crew show them up as idiots and, since I am quite capable of inadvertent idiocy without the assistance of the editorial desk I prefer not to be videoed at all.
p.s. Stan, you really should stop your esteemed broadsheet trying to behave like a tabloid at times
As an employee I would not speak to/be videoed by any media rep unless I had full editorial control. Since I clearly will not have editorial control then . . .
. . turned up at *** one day to be told on ground intercom that the local TV crew would be coming up to video our shut-down procedures - replied "Yeah right - nobody boards the plane until I say so and that will be when we are just about to disembark!" Sounds a bit hard, doesn't it? Well I've seen people's well-meaning attempts to 'help' a TV crew show them up as idiots and, since I am quite capable of inadvertent idiocy without the assistance of the editorial desk I prefer not to be videoed at all.
p.s. Stan, you really should stop your esteemed broadsheet trying to behave like a tabloid at times
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Congratulations to Dantruck for having the guts to try where I had already failed by addressing the topic of this thread.
In my experience on PPRuNe, the person with the best understanding of the balance between the interests of aviation industry workers and the needs of journalists is Capt PPRuNe himself. If only others here would follow his sensible example. t'ain't natural, I'm not convinced what you say about you and your friends is true; either way, I am appalled at your attitude.
Most people visit PPRuNE because they are interested in aviation, not to trawl for information in a professional capacity. If PPRuNers wish to tell me things they believe to be of interest (and quite a few do on a regular basis) they know where to find me. That's up to them.
Oh, and for those who (rather childishly IMHO) complained that Watergate was an inadequate example of public interest journalism because it happened in 1974, I refer you to the publication three days ago of the Stevens Report into collusion between security forces and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. In his report, Sir John Stevens acknowledged the significant role played by the media in obtaining information and documents, subsequently passed to investigators, which would never otherwise have been uncovered - thus preventing more deaths.
In my experience on PPRuNe, the person with the best understanding of the balance between the interests of aviation industry workers and the needs of journalists is Capt PPRuNe himself. If only others here would follow his sensible example. t'ain't natural, I'm not convinced what you say about you and your friends is true; either way, I am appalled at your attitude.
Most people visit PPRuNE because they are interested in aviation, not to trawl for information in a professional capacity. If PPRuNers wish to tell me things they believe to be of interest (and quite a few do on a regular basis) they know where to find me. That's up to them.
Oh, and for those who (rather childishly IMHO) complained that Watergate was an inadequate example of public interest journalism because it happened in 1974, I refer you to the publication three days ago of the Stevens Report into collusion between security forces and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. In his report, Sir John Stevens acknowledged the significant role played by the media in obtaining information and documents, subsequently passed to investigators, which would never otherwise have been uncovered - thus preventing more deaths.
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All interesting stuff this...
Just to answer a couple of hanging questions raised in the above...
Celtic Frog...journalists regularly contact staff direct for reasons of accuracy, speed and - shock horror - PR departments don't always tell the truth. PR people are paid to promote and project the company's interests, not to be a pure factual source. Now, while I do not wish to imply all PR people are liars, unfortunately they are too often put in a position by management where they must at least be economical with the truth. Hence the direct approach is often necessary.
Also, most of us live in a democracy. Journalists have a right to approach anyone. Likewise that person has the right to decline to respond. This is the central point I hoped this thread would get across. Everyone above who has expressed concern at talking to journalists is right to do so. To be careful and to know your rights has always been my 'Warning.' Pushing aside the 'disease' and 'vermin' comments I hope everyone has learned something here. I certainly have.
Dan Coughlan
Celtic Frog...journalists regularly contact staff direct for reasons of accuracy, speed and - shock horror - PR departments don't always tell the truth. PR people are paid to promote and project the company's interests, not to be a pure factual source. Now, while I do not wish to imply all PR people are liars, unfortunately they are too often put in a position by management where they must at least be economical with the truth. Hence the direct approach is often necessary.
Also, most of us live in a democracy. Journalists have a right to approach anyone. Likewise that person has the right to decline to respond. This is the central point I hoped this thread would get across. Everyone above who has expressed concern at talking to journalists is right to do so. To be careful and to know your rights has always been my 'Warning.' Pushing aside the 'disease' and 'vermin' comments I hope everyone has learned something here. I certainly have.
Dan Coughlan
In a previous life I have had to deal with the media, primarily at a local/regional level, and have found myself misquoted and sometimes comments taken out of context. In my current job my contract forbidly expresses talking to journalists as do our SOPS for my company. I feel the best way to handle these situations is if as I currently am, unable to talk to the media, to politely refer them to the PR section. If you do not have that facility then perhaps the below may help.
If you have to speak to the media then keep it concise, easy to understand, and accurate. This saves them and the editor effort especially if they are working to a deadline. It obviously does not prevent the addition of any 'spin' if thats the bag they're into. If you're supplying images, make sure they are anotated correctly with location, subject, and names of people listed left to right, this reduces the chances of Mr Smith being Mr Jones and vice-versa. Producing interesting images is also challenging, as from my albeit limited experience as an occaisional freelancer, newsdesks seem to have a poor grasp of distance, time and geography from job to job! and you're still working to that deadline!.
A good source of stuff for writers is the writers and artists handbook, produced yearly for about £20:00. It has lots of good contacts in all types of media and gives lots of hints and tips to potential contributors. Also if you know you're going into a specific publication and you have the time, blag a previous edition/copy to see their style.
If you have to speak to the media then keep it concise, easy to understand, and accurate. This saves them and the editor effort especially if they are working to a deadline. It obviously does not prevent the addition of any 'spin' if thats the bag they're into. If you're supplying images, make sure they are anotated correctly with location, subject, and names of people listed left to right, this reduces the chances of Mr Smith being Mr Jones and vice-versa. Producing interesting images is also challenging, as from my albeit limited experience as an occaisional freelancer, newsdesks seem to have a poor grasp of distance, time and geography from job to job! and you're still working to that deadline!.
A good source of stuff for writers is the writers and artists handbook, produced yearly for about £20:00. It has lots of good contacts in all types of media and gives lots of hints and tips to potential contributors. Also if you know you're going into a specific publication and you have the time, blag a previous edition/copy to see their style.
A few years ago I sat through an excellent presentation by the Chief Test Pilot of Westlands, concerning a messy but thankfully non-fatal loss of an aircraft in flight test.
One of the many lessons he admitted to learning from that accident, was the importance of including the PR department in the disaster planning. When something had gone wrong, it was far better that PR should know what, and what information they could pass out than either the PR dept trying to work it our for themselves, or journalists trying to bypass them in frustration.
Just a thought.
G
One of the many lessons he admitted to learning from that accident, was the importance of including the PR department in the disaster planning. When something had gone wrong, it was far better that PR should know what, and what information they could pass out than either the PR dept trying to work it our for themselves, or journalists trying to bypass them in frustration.
Just a thought.
G
