'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
Swounger
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'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...6/npilot16.xml
Cabin crew told: 'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
By David Harrison, Transport Correspondent
(Filed: 16/02/2003)
Airline pilots are taking "naps" for up to two hours during long-haul flights and ordering cabin crew not to disturb them, The Telegraph can reveal.
The practice has alarmed fellow pilots and cabin crew who fear a disaster if the co-pilot also falls asleep, or ill - leaving nobody in control of the aircraft.
I thought some sleep was permitted on long term flights--if there were a second crew.
Cabin crew told: 'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
By David Harrison, Transport Correspondent
(Filed: 16/02/2003)
Airline pilots are taking "naps" for up to two hours during long-haul flights and ordering cabin crew not to disturb them, The Telegraph can reveal.
The practice has alarmed fellow pilots and cabin crew who fear a disaster if the co-pilot also falls asleep, or ill - leaving nobody in control of the aircraft.
I thought some sleep was permitted on long term flights--if there were a second crew.
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Fish,
Ditto, hardly worth replying to but.........if we want to be boringly factual about it IF both pilots were to fall asleep (and the proposed new flight time rules, if accepted, might lead towards this area) many aircraft have automatic equipment installed to wake the guys up front if no activity has been detected for a while.
Sorry to bring facts into a good story.
Ditto, hardly worth replying to but.........if we want to be boringly factual about it IF both pilots were to fall asleep (and the proposed new flight time rules, if accepted, might lead towards this area) many aircraft have automatic equipment installed to wake the guys up front if no activity has been detected for a while.
Sorry to bring facts into a good story.
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If you are tired, you have got to sleep - simple !
We don't have any rest areas, we don't use heavy crew, we just have us, sat down, facing forward. Now if the F/O or I say we are tired, then a suitable time is agreed and we nap - say 20 minutes is good and then perhaps the other person does the same. It has been proved by NASA and others that sleep like that is not only beneficial, but essential to the safe operation of the flight. It doesn't matter whether it is shorthaul or longhaul, the same applies. My personal fave time is just after lunch going west when we are over Canada, sun shining, full belly, hostie gently playing with my..................
We don't have any rest areas, we don't use heavy crew, we just have us, sat down, facing forward. Now if the F/O or I say we are tired, then a suitable time is agreed and we nap - say 20 minutes is good and then perhaps the other person does the same. It has been proved by NASA and others that sleep like that is not only beneficial, but essential to the safe operation of the flight. It doesn't matter whether it is shorthaul or longhaul, the same applies. My personal fave time is just after lunch going west when we are over Canada, sun shining, full belly, hostie gently playing with my..................
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It is worth replying to this thread.
We should encourage any post by Bubbette which isn't packed with propaganda for XXXXXX ....... oops, almost said it, and we all know what happens if anyone even mentions XXXXXX.
I know it's just a link to a silly story, but she's got to start somewhere.
Alty
We should encourage any post by Bubbette which isn't packed with propaganda for XXXXXX ....... oops, almost said it, and we all know what happens if anyone even mentions XXXXXX.
I know it's just a link to a silly story, but she's got to start somewhere.
Alty
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Anyone wanting the facts on pilot rest should talk to the CAA. I'm sure they would be happy to provide an explanation of how airlines permit in flight rest.
As for the idea that some sleep for "two hours" - well they'd have to get rid of that hangover somewhere wouldn't they?!
Diesel
As for the idea that some sleep for "two hours" - well they'd have to get rid of that hangover somewhere wouldn't they?!
Diesel
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I understand that the CAA are terribly worried about the phenomenon of pilots suffering fatigue after as little as 24 hours without sleep (typical return sector of London - Florida trip) and providing it doesn't prejudice the locked cockpit door policy and gets approval from the FAA, NTSE, CIA and president Bush (supported by Tony Blair), will introduce single legged stools in place of cockpit seats.
Last edited by virgo; 16th Feb 2003 at 18:56.
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Fish, Diesel
remarks about pilots and drinking aren't big and they aren't clever. I suggest if you feel that way about the airline profession you take a train or a boat next time and good riddance!
Back to the topic, as it says in the article, taking "scheduled rest" is quite normal and absolutely safe. What isn't safe, is both trying to fight one's circadian rythms and staying awake. After all the most difficult bit is finding "Mother Earth" safely again, much easier after a power nap.
ATB, PTC
remarks about pilots and drinking aren't big and they aren't clever. I suggest if you feel that way about the airline profession you take a train or a boat next time and good riddance!
Back to the topic, as it says in the article, taking "scheduled rest" is quite normal and absolutely safe. What isn't safe, is both trying to fight one's circadian rythms and staying awake. After all the most difficult bit is finding "Mother Earth" safely again, much easier after a power nap.
ATB, PTC
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If you are tired then you should sleep,get a hosty on the jump seat to keep your buddy awake.Remember Gary Hart (Selby train disaster) he was one of many idiots who think its safe to drive a car when tired.The journalists need to look at some incidents in the cruise VS incidents during approach/landing figures and do some risk management analysis.Better still bring some pressure to bear to solve the root cause,FTLs used as targets....sorry just woke from a micro nap.
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Back in the dim and distant past, one of my instructors told me of the time an entire crew of a Vulcan fell asleep and overshot their destination by about half an hour. Thank goodness for uncomfortable bang seats!
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Time change
At GF we are supposed to get an additional crew member with any flight with a block time exceeding ten hours. Recently west bound from MNL this was the case but instead of providing a third pilot they gave the crew a flight plan with a very high cost index and a low cruise level in an attempt to legalise matters. Not unknown for the flying time to exceed the block time !!
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Peeteechase
Your inability to understand sarcasm must make life very dull. Perhaps you like it that way.
Like many others I feel this article is barely worthy of comment. As I suggested any cursory research with the CAA will reveal that inflight rest is legal, safe. and NECESSARY. It is a non-story.
I personally feel the media's current obssession with alcohol to be of almost similar value. Hence my comment.
Diesel
Your inability to understand sarcasm must make life very dull. Perhaps you like it that way.
Like many others I feel this article is barely worthy of comment. As I suggested any cursory research with the CAA will reveal that inflight rest is legal, safe. and NECESSARY. It is a non-story.
I personally feel the media's current obssession with alcohol to be of almost similar value. Hence my comment.
Diesel
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Hi, all.
I am sorry, but there is no big deal in this. The SOP in my company purely requires that there is contact between the flight deck and cabin crew every 20 minutes. Normally they would call us, but if one of us was going to take a nap, then we can make an arrangement to call them every 20 minutes. This saves the interphone chime on the flightdeck going off and waking up the napping crew member. Obviously, if the cabin crew hear nothing from us after a 20 minute period, then they should call us to ensure that we are OK.
I agree that a 2 hour nap is too extreme. Our SOP states that it should be no longer than 45 minutes.
BB.
I am sorry, but there is no big deal in this. The SOP in my company purely requires that there is contact between the flight deck and cabin crew every 20 minutes. Normally they would call us, but if one of us was going to take a nap, then we can make an arrangement to call them every 20 minutes. This saves the interphone chime on the flightdeck going off and waking up the napping crew member. Obviously, if the cabin crew hear nothing from us after a 20 minute period, then they should call us to ensure that we are OK.
I agree that a 2 hour nap is too extreme. Our SOP states that it should be no longer than 45 minutes.
BB.
This certainly is a topic worth airing, the Telegraph article is quite correct, cabin crew and FO's from several operators including mine have mentioned to me that some Captains are saying exactly what the paper claims. Bloody dangerous and places the cabin crew in a very difficult position. Ignore the request, call anyway and create an "atmosphere" on the flight or not call and hope that everything will be OK. The SOPs are there for a reason and the "I do it my way" attitude should be long gone from a modern commercial flightdeck.
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A really strong, fresh black coffee just prior to top of drop is what you need. I find a large dash of fine cognac added from my flight bag hip flask really perks me up. Well you know how you drive better with a couple of swift ones inside you - same with flying don't you think?
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Max,
Is it really 'bloody dangerous'? I think not. What is bloody dangerous is the old school 'stay awake cos men are men' attitude. All that leads to is both crew members being asleep in the gravy strokes when you want someone to be on the ball.
As BB says, if the flight deck crew don't want to be called because the buzzer is too loud (and would prevent any rest) it doesn't require a rocket scientist to make other arrangements.
So what is the issue? Pilots need to be rested, cabin crew need to make certain that someone is awake and that things haven't gone awry.
If a Purser or F/O isn't capable or prepared to come up with an arrangement that satisfies the requirements or is frightened of causing an 'atmosphere' when unhappy; then they are in the wrong job. CRM isn't courtesy...
No, sometimes it isn't easy to stand up for what you believe in but just because the Captain is a prick doesn't mean everyone else on the crew has to follow suit. Next you'll be telling me Saddam is a good guy too......
Ghost
Is it really 'bloody dangerous'? I think not. What is bloody dangerous is the old school 'stay awake cos men are men' attitude. All that leads to is both crew members being asleep in the gravy strokes when you want someone to be on the ball.
As BB says, if the flight deck crew don't want to be called because the buzzer is too loud (and would prevent any rest) it doesn't require a rocket scientist to make other arrangements.
So what is the issue? Pilots need to be rested, cabin crew need to make certain that someone is awake and that things haven't gone awry.
If a Purser or F/O isn't capable or prepared to come up with an arrangement that satisfies the requirements or is frightened of causing an 'atmosphere' when unhappy; then they are in the wrong job. CRM isn't courtesy...
No, sometimes it isn't easy to stand up for what you believe in but just because the Captain is a prick doesn't mean everyone else on the crew has to follow suit. Next you'll be telling me Saddam is a good guy too......
Ghost
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surprised!
hey all,
i am not a proffessional pilot, i have a great desire to be one, and will begin training this time next year though.
I always thought that the crew could only fly for 8hrs before legally leaving the seat for rest to the crew bunks. This has actually surprised me, pilots falling asleep at the wheel so to speak, but fair play to ya! if one of the two can manage the F/D then why keep a man, or indeed woman, from their rest?
This is another one of those aviation issues that will never be legal, although a lot of peeps will do it!!!!
sleep tight guys
i am not a proffessional pilot, i have a great desire to be one, and will begin training this time next year though.
I always thought that the crew could only fly for 8hrs before legally leaving the seat for rest to the crew bunks. This has actually surprised me, pilots falling asleep at the wheel so to speak, but fair play to ya! if one of the two can manage the F/D then why keep a man, or indeed woman, from their rest?
This is another one of those aviation issues that will never be legal, although a lot of peeps will do it!!!!
sleep tight guys
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Dozza - I hope you take a more sensible attitutude when it comes to job interviews or you'll never make a professional pilot. Two flight crew can stay in their seats up to 14 hrs on a two sector day, without rest, without even going into discretion. In-flight rest is perfectly legal, approved by the CAA and a damn sight more sensible than both plodding on through the night 'micro-sleeping' when at least one of you should be alert.