'Do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
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Whilst in their seats?
Hand,
when you say inflight rest is legal, is that when on the flight deck? i mean in the pilots seats?. I can totally understand why you need the rest if you work for 14hrs, i thought it was only 8. It just comes as a surprise that the pilots who are you are trusting with, well, your lives, can legally have a kip when they wish, or at least one at a time. No offence intended hand, and apologies for any caused. This just proves my ignorance and shows i need to know a hell of a lot more than i do!
Dozza
when you say inflight rest is legal, is that when on the flight deck? i mean in the pilots seats?. I can totally understand why you need the rest if you work for 14hrs, i thought it was only 8. It just comes as a surprise that the pilots who are you are trusting with, well, your lives, can legally have a kip when they wish, or at least one at a time. No offence intended hand, and apologies for any caused. This just proves my ignorance and shows i need to know a hell of a lot more than i do!
Dozza
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Yep, my company (with the approval of the CAA) allows up to 45 minutes 'controlled rest' in the seat during the cruise, with the conditions that both crew members agree (ie the other guy has to be sure he'll stay awake), contact is maintained with the cabin crew at intervals not greater than 20 minutes and the rest ends at least 30 minutes before top of descent. The logic is that if you're body's got to sleep then it's going to sleep, so far better to do it under controlled conditions at a time of minimal workload than in uncontrolled conditions when workload is high and alertness needs to be maintained. Ever sat in a warm room listening to sombody boring drone on and on and just felt your head starting to drop no matter how hard you tried to stay awake? You wouldn't want to drive your car in that condition and I don't want to land an aircraft like that, so we use the aviation equivalent of pulling into a service station and having 30 minutes kip. No shock, no horror, no danger, just a bored Daily Telegraph journalist searching for sensation on a slow news day.
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Bargain!
Hand,
When you put it like that it does seem like a very good idea. Increases safety i suppose by having controlled rest. I know exactly what you mean when you talked about the warm room, i am in my last year of school and those pesky Physics lessons in which i get no understanding!
. Thanks for the info, and apologies again.
Cheers,
Dozza
When you put it like that it does seem like a very good idea. Increases safety i suppose by having controlled rest. I know exactly what you mean when you talked about the warm room, i am in my last year of school and those pesky Physics lessons in which i get no understanding!
. Thanks for the info, and apologies again.Cheers,
Dozza
Trash du Blanc
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Most FAA here in the US would readily agree off-record that "controlled rest" is preferable to micro-sleep and fatigue related accidents. But it will never be approved over here - no FAA administrator is willing to sustain the publicity. Imagine the US public finding out that - horrors - pilots are asleep up front, with government's blessing.
Dozza2k - never forget, these limits are SCHEDULED, meaning that you can always go long for delays. I did 22 hours in the right seat of a DC-10 once, Harare - Lagos - Amsterdam - Brussels. All legal as scheduled, but (suprise) we ran long.
Dozza2k - never forget, these limits are SCHEDULED, meaning that you can always go long for delays. I did 22 hours in the right seat of a DC-10 once, Harare - Lagos - Amsterdam - Brussels. All legal as scheduled, but (suprise) we ran long.
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Funny thing is you can stay up all night, land back in the country of your choice, go to your crew room, hand in the paper work, and then spend another hour getting to your car. You might have been awake for up to thirty six hours. (We have all tried to sleep when a longhaul flight has been delayed, and failed miserably.)
Then you get into your car and drive home. Still I don't see the Daily Telegraph making a big thing about that. Now who would begrudge us a wee cat nap, if it means we might not run our cars down an embankment and on to a railway line?????
Then you get into your car and drive home. Still I don't see the Daily Telegraph making a big thing about that. Now who would begrudge us a wee cat nap, if it means we might not run our cars down an embankment and on to a railway line?????
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What I find SOoooo amazing is that it has taken SOoooo long for the press/public to "wake up"( sorry about the pun) to the fact that we pilots are nothing but normal human beings,requiring the same food & rest requirements as they!
The big difference between the average member of Joe public & us is that we are frequently required to go without the rest!
We are frequently called upon to be awake in a 2 pilot environment, in my case for up to 17 hours,before seeing a proper bed.After double the flight time as rest I can then be compelled to do it all again. Now this rest is not in my bed at home but possibly in a noisy hotel where in my case, a man with a hammer drill is always working on the floor above!
So when we co-ordinate LEGAL inflight rest between the 2 of us,for short periods of up to 1 hour, informing the cabin staff to make more frequent visists to the flight deck, you the general public should applaud our fine sense of responsibility, ensuring that we are more rested & therefore more likely to adequately deal with any emergency that may occour later on during the statistically proven more risky descent, approach & landing phase of the flight.
But, if you are still not convinced that we should be taking short periods of inflight rest then JOIN WITH US and write to your member of parliament asking that the authorities put pressure on the rogue airlines that continually roster their pilots above and beyond the legal limits!!!!!!
Enough said, Am in Havana, Cuba having just awoke from a full nights sleep & must go down for breakfast before flying back to Europe tonight. Now let me see, must report at the airport at 2200 hours tonight(1700 GMT) so should I go back to bed after breakfast, no,wont be able to sleep with that hammer drill working above me,will try to sleep this afternoon- maybe there will be a short break between the hammer drill man finishing and the afternoon/evening disco music from the pool bar beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The big difference between the average member of Joe public & us is that we are frequently required to go without the rest!
We are frequently called upon to be awake in a 2 pilot environment, in my case for up to 17 hours,before seeing a proper bed.After double the flight time as rest I can then be compelled to do it all again. Now this rest is not in my bed at home but possibly in a noisy hotel where in my case, a man with a hammer drill is always working on the floor above!
So when we co-ordinate LEGAL inflight rest between the 2 of us,for short periods of up to 1 hour, informing the cabin staff to make more frequent visists to the flight deck, you the general public should applaud our fine sense of responsibility, ensuring that we are more rested & therefore more likely to adequately deal with any emergency that may occour later on during the statistically proven more risky descent, approach & landing phase of the flight.
But, if you are still not convinced that we should be taking short periods of inflight rest then JOIN WITH US and write to your member of parliament asking that the authorities put pressure on the rogue airlines that continually roster their pilots above and beyond the legal limits!!!!!!
Enough said, Am in Havana, Cuba having just awoke from a full nights sleep & must go down for breakfast before flying back to Europe tonight. Now let me see, must report at the airport at 2200 hours tonight(1700 GMT) so should I go back to bed after breakfast, no,wont be able to sleep with that hammer drill working above me,will try to sleep this afternoon- maybe there will be a short break between the hammer drill man finishing and the afternoon/evening disco music from the pool bar beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Pilots being humans could be dangerous
That reminds me of a passenger a few weeks ago:
When boarding he saw me through the cockpitwindow, eating a sandwich. He then complained to the cabin crew that this was outrageous, because I could fall ill if I was eating something bad, and now he would be scared the entire flight.
The captain then explained that an FO with something in his stomach would fly safer than when passing out due to lack of food, but the passenger told him he would write a complaint to the company.
Sorry for being human!
When boarding he saw me through the cockpitwindow, eating a sandwich. He then complained to the cabin crew that this was outrageous, because I could fall ill if I was eating something bad, and now he would be scared the entire flight.
The captain then explained that an FO with something in his stomach would fly safer than when passing out due to lack of food, but the passenger told him he would write a complaint to the company.
Sorry for being human!
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Haha P77 - you should have told the pax that the food was LBA approved! ...what is going to happen next? Will the pax complain because you have to use the bathroom? You could get stuck in there and the a/c would have to be flown single pilot! 
A nap makes you mentally fresher! I had a few flights where I fought sleep with coffee and cold temps etc. it's not worth it.
A nap makes you mentally fresher! I had a few flights where I fought sleep with coffee and cold temps etc. it's not worth it.
I'm retired now and in my own bed every night. If I can't get to sleep I imagine it's two in the morning, there is no moon and the 40 west call has just been made. The first officer is taking a nap and I'm struggling to keep my eyes open. I'm soon pushing out the ZZZZ's. It works every time.
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Dear Hand,
>contact is maintained with the cabin crew at intervals not greater than 20 minutes<
It is not uncommon for this interval to be stretched to 30 minutes plus...
Bit of a worry, as is the 'yes, phase 2 is fitted, but let's operate to phase 1 because the noise wakes me up' procedure.
ATB!
>contact is maintained with the cabin crew at intervals not greater than 20 minutes<
It is not uncommon for this interval to be stretched to 30 minutes plus...
Bit of a worry, as is the 'yes, phase 2 is fitted, but let's operate to phase 1 because the noise wakes me up' procedure.
ATB!
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One of our cockpits actually had a ceiling mounted, simple, spring loaded timer, settable from 5 to 60 minutes. It's a worthwile gadget even when you're not sleeping, especially as a reminder for position reports when crossing the pond, or just for an hourly fuel check.
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Does the CAA Aeromedical branch have any in-depth studies about fatigue with regards to long haul, time-zone crossing etc. I remember some basic questions in human factors (or whatever the exam was called) however, I am sure that this subject is much more complicated.
And what about t..h...e . . .
DO NOT DISTURB!
And what about t..h...e . . .
DO NOT DISTURB!
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"do not disturb - the captain's trying to sleep'
I have witnessed a First Officer falling asleep on short finals! Who can control sleep/wakefulness when they are fatigued. By ‘fatigue’ I mean the ground in tiredness which comes over time, when faced with poor rostering; disruption of circadian rhythms etc. The only answer to this is a company which understands the problem and programmes in adequate R & R. (as opposed to one that stays with the ‘profits over safety’ philosophy)
Brian Smith MEP is entering into negotiations with the European Parliament which will, according to Mervyn Granshaw at BALPA, extend pilots’ working hours.
Put your efforts into backing him, or write to your MEP, because once the goalposts are moved it will be impossible to change them back.
Brian Smith MEP is entering into negotiations with the European Parliament which will, according to Mervyn Granshaw at BALPA, extend pilots’ working hours.
Put your efforts into backing him, or write to your MEP, because once the goalposts are moved it will be impossible to change them back.
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I fell asleep once in the flight engineer's seat while filling out the cruise card. My pen slashed abruptly off to one side as I slumped.
I showed it to the captain, and he said, "Hell, boy, when I was on the panel, I once fell asleep while starting the number 2 engine!"
By the way, when I dozed off it was 4 am local time, and I had been on duty for 10 hours....
I showed it to the captain, and he said, "Hell, boy, when I was on the panel, I once fell asleep while starting the number 2 engine!"
By the way, when I dozed off it was 4 am local time, and I had been on duty for 10 hours....
Some comments on this debate.
There is a difference between short term tiredness and long term fatigue. Both can be hazardous with respect to safe flight. I would suggest that continual bad rostering can have an adverse effect on long term fatigue.
Far better that in flight rest be conducted in a pro-active manner- eg Captain says he is going to close his eyes for "x" minutes and to please wake me up at "y" time. Then FO can do the same etc. This is more effective than all on the flight deck trying to stay awake and then someone nods off in the process. When I was on the B707 in the 70's with (dare I say it!) BOAC, as a young Second Officer, I well remember on a night Altantic crossing looking over to see the skipper asleep and then also noting that the flight engineer was also in the same state!
I think it should also be considered that the rest period prior to duty is not just for sleep but also (dare I say it) for some form of recreation. Human beings are not machines and cannot sleep to order, especially after a long duty period. Rest periods of 10 hours or so are, I believe, quite insufficient to enable the average pilot to recharge the batteries prior to a new duty and the idea of longer duty periods etc I find quite horrifying both as a pilot and a fare paying passenger. There obviously has to be some sensible give and take but I feel the time has come for crew members to start drawing lines in the sand in this respect.
There is a difference between short term tiredness and long term fatigue. Both can be hazardous with respect to safe flight. I would suggest that continual bad rostering can have an adverse effect on long term fatigue.
Far better that in flight rest be conducted in a pro-active manner- eg Captain says he is going to close his eyes for "x" minutes and to please wake me up at "y" time. Then FO can do the same etc. This is more effective than all on the flight deck trying to stay awake and then someone nods off in the process. When I was on the B707 in the 70's with (dare I say it!) BOAC, as a young Second Officer, I well remember on a night Altantic crossing looking over to see the skipper asleep and then also noting that the flight engineer was also in the same state!
I think it should also be considered that the rest period prior to duty is not just for sleep but also (dare I say it) for some form of recreation. Human beings are not machines and cannot sleep to order, especially after a long duty period. Rest periods of 10 hours or so are, I believe, quite insufficient to enable the average pilot to recharge the batteries prior to a new duty and the idea of longer duty periods etc I find quite horrifying both as a pilot and a fare paying passenger. There obviously has to be some sensible give and take but I feel the time has come for crew members to start drawing lines in the sand in this respect.
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hi all
can someone please explain to me how it works?
if the max duty time is 8hrs for crew , how does the rotation on board work with relief crew, for a flight, for eg. to Rio work.
if there seems to be one relief pilot, how does he/she rotate with crew?
please tell.
regards
PH
can someone please explain to me how it works?
if the max duty time is 8hrs for crew , how does the rotation on board work with relief crew, for a flight, for eg. to Rio work.
if there seems to be one relief pilot, how does he/she rotate with crew?
please tell.
regards
PH
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Good or maybe not ...
Short naps have been tried, tested, evaluated and found to be beneficial (there used to be quite a bit of interesting info at NASA's Ames Research Centre website).
I've seen some new articles out recently in HF circles suggesting concepts of "Sleep Inertia" which basically suggest that depending on the individual, the circumstances of drowsiness and the time spent dozing can be detrimental to performance .... Why? Because depending on what point in the sleep cycle the individual was just prior to waking the "lights maybe on, but nobody's home". For periods upto 40+ minutes the effects of sleep can dog the individual - it's the "I'm never fully awake in the mornings until I've had my cup of coffee and read the front page of the paper" syndrome.
Just food for thought ...
I've seen some new articles out recently in HF circles suggesting concepts of "Sleep Inertia" which basically suggest that depending on the individual, the circumstances of drowsiness and the time spent dozing can be detrimental to performance .... Why? Because depending on what point in the sleep cycle the individual was just prior to waking the "lights maybe on, but nobody's home". For periods upto 40+ minutes the effects of sleep can dog the individual - it's the "I'm never fully awake in the mornings until I've had my cup of coffee and read the front page of the paper" syndrome.
Just food for thought ...
Last edited by Cross Check; 22nd Feb 2003 at 22:57.