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Iberia Flight Deck Security

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Iberia Flight Deck Security

Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:08
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Iberia Flight Deck Security

A relative of mine was flying on an Iberia flight today from Alicante to London Gatwick and reported that the flight deck door was open, with the cockpit visible from the cabin, throughout virtually the whole flight, including take off and landing.
I was astonished to hear this, knowing as I do the enhanced security measures that have been introduced by the FAA and UKCAA to reduce the possibility of terrorist infiltration of the flight deck.
Can anybody tell me whether the Spanish authorities have introduced similar security measures? I presume they have because otherwise why are they being allowed into UK airspace, in which case this would appear to be a blatant disregard of security regulations.
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:30
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I think it's called "Maniana"

ATB, PTC
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:34
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Others would call your reply "security mania"
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:42
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Captains discretion, no ?
Had the person reporting this wanted to visit the flightdeck why didnt he ask ?
Do we have to live like prisoners ?
Safety, of course, but this is plain ridiculous...was anyone shot ?
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:48
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The CAA have recently reminded all foreign carriers of the requirement to lock the flight deck door on entry to UK airspace.

There are obvious difficulties in enforcing such a measure but experience has shown that passengers are actually reporting airlines where there is blatant disregard.

Anne
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 21:57
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The practice of leaving the flightdeck door open is in my experience very common in Spanish flights, and visitors are sometimes welcome.

About Max Touts comments: "otherwise why are they being allowed into UK airspace", correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, when you are aboard a spanish aircraft (or any other country for that matter) you are subject the laws of that country regarless of the airspace you are in.
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 22:22
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ADFS
This is not plain ridiculous. Do you not realise that the UK (and possibly Spain as well) is still a potential target for a repeat terrorist action along the lines of 9/11? Do you really consider that all the attention to improving flight deck security is a waste of time? Your post suggests that you don’t take this threat seriously, amigo. Please stay away from UK airspace.
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 22:23
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Thumbs up Spanish attitudes

The Spanish - Gawd Bless 'em
Life here is a little more...err... laid back, shall we say!
For this is a JAA country without even a single shred of JAA FCL provision for us helicopter drivers. The closing of a single cockpit door will never register with Aena, the Spanish authority. It can't even maintain its own website, let alone enforce a piffling regulation.
But the wine is good, and the sun shines, so I'm not knocking 'em.
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 23:12
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It's no suprise that this occurs. Very few flights that I have taken over the past 12 months have had a locked cockpit door. I personally welcome this as a passenger as I feel that since 9/11 I would not be the only passenger to attack a hijacker no matter what he said he was carrying bearing in mind the likely end result of the hijack. On most of the flights I have taken,the stewardess opensthe door herself to enter the cockpit. On 1 recent flight the cockpit door was left open for around 15 mins while each pilot took turns to visit the wc and chit chat to the stewardesses. If anything this added to passenger confidence as a pilot at ease equals a passenger at ease. The only airline I have flown with since 9/11 that has clearly kept the cockpit door locked has been BA without exception. Be cautious, of course, but let the passengers feel at ease and don't let the fear of terrorism spoil the enjoyment of flight.
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Old 13th Feb 2003, 23:47
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a locked flight deck door is here to stay since 9/11, any captain who risks passenger and non passenger saftey by doing otherwise is reckless . and stupid ! .For some of you who have made statements above I think you would consider otherwise if you had lost love ones both in the air and on the ground on 9/11
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 01:25
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Hmmm....


'Locked cockpit doors = safety'

Bit of an untested assumption.


The 11 Sep. hijackers were able to take command because the policy at the time was to cooperate with hijackers. It could have been a jagged piece of plastic cup and they would have gained control. All they would have had to do was grab someone & slit the victims carotid artery as a first action. Or use a cheapie disposable pen to poke a victim's eyes out. It matters not what weapons they had, just a vivid demonstration of threat & an intent to enforce the threat.

That of course is no longer the case. Now the policy is reversed & all on board seem to be encouraged to defend the a/c.

How does locking the door or excluding known safe visitors help? Not much. America already had a locked cockpit/no visitors policy. Effective wasn't it?

No door fitted to an a/c will stop a determined attack. A bullet proof security door is great once you gain access. It WILL delay an attempt to regain control. How much time do you think a person intent on crashing needs to reach the ground as rapidly as possible?

How much easier is it is for a hijacker to gain control when there are fewer people to fight in the cockpit.

Meanwhile grannies have their knitting needles taken from them but are allowed on with their fountain pens & bottles of duty free, and pilots can't bring colleagues, family & friends to the flightdeck.
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 08:28
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As a virtual pilot and AT controller, but a passenger in the real world i personally love to see the open doors it shows the people who are interested in flight just what is in there and gives the chance of asking for a look.

the last flight i went on the turkey in an A320 i went up front after the landing and the ground bus ended up waiting for me.

the pilot then said i should have come up sooner
if only i had known

oh well
been trying to get a tour type flight ever since your know the type there and back same day short haul with a chance to familerize with the aircraft.

this nowadays seems more of a hard thing to do, one day maybe

Darren Fletcher
PR Director
Vatsim-UK
[email protected]
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 09:30
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Chicharrero

Individual countries control their own airspace as a soveriegn right. They can, and do, make entry into that airspace subject to sertain conditions. The US has imposed very strict rules for all aircraft - foreign or US - entering its areas.

In UK we have made it a requirement for aircraft in UK airspace to have locked flight deck doors - irrespective of the country of registration - whether they are transitting or landing in the UK.

Anne
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 09:47
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Tinstall & others,

We’ve been through all the arguments about grannies and their knitting needles and the value of flight deck visits ad nauseam on this site. That was not the point of my post. Whatever you may think about the rights and wrongs, CAA ruling is now in place to prohibit entry into the flight deck by non authorised persons at all times. I personally am no longer permitted to travel off-duty on the flight deck of the aircraft I fly for my company nor can my wife occupy the JS when I am operating.
This being the case it seems remarkable to me that airlines such as Iberia can breeze into our airspace with the flight deck door wide open, showing total disdain for a regulation supposedly applying to all operators into the UK. I wonder how our American friends would feel about this.
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 10:45
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Interesting debate.
I would just like to say that ofcourse I appreciate that there is a ruling for all flights entering UK airspace and UK registerd A/C to have the flightdeck door locked.
But for say on the 737 if you need to go to the dunnies you still have to get out of the flightdeck, the cabin crew brings us teas and coffees, food, etc. Untill we have a galley and toilet in the F/D we will always be vulnerable as someone pointed out earlier on, in the US they have been flying with F/D door locked for as long as I can remember which didn't stop the terrible events of 9/11.
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 11:56
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Nice one Max Tout! Why not just stand outside Finsbury Park mosque handing out circulars to all and sundry telling them what you have just told us?

I don't doubt the value of your post if you are of the opinion that you are (and I must confess to agreeing with the dissenters on the value of such draconian measures as have been taken, for the reasons given) but you should de-identify the airline in question. Your post should be a general question about the subject in hand; if you feel that strongly about it you should get your friend to write to the CAA or DoT where it would be far safer to name names.

What you have done, sitting atop your high horse, is potentially far more damaging and far outweighs any alleged benefit of the LFDD Policy. I suggest that you edit your post promptly.
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 12:03
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I am amazed at the complacency in some of these replies. As a pilot for BA I can assure you that we take security and safety seriously. If I were to do what this Spanish Captain did I would be out of a job- yesterday and quite rightly too!
These fanatics will strike at any weak link in order to fulfill their objective and any airline or country ignoring that fact will probably pay for it - big time.
As for the passengers stopping them, if the flightdeck was stormed at the right time eg. on final approach, there would not be time stop them delivering the package, and then it's adios amigos!

ATB, PTC
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 12:27
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Interesting post peeteechase, I have recently retired from BA and have seen the locked door from both sides.

It was rather worrying to see from the club cabin (shorthaul aircraft) the way a "comfort break" was handled by the Captain (laid down procedure). As there was no screen (curtains etc) to obscure the exit from the flight deck and entry into the toilet it would have been the perfect time to join the queue for said toilet, as a couple of passengers did, knowing in the next couple of minutes the Captain would retrace his steps bak to the flight deck.

The captain, on leaving the toilet, went through the correct procedure to have the flight deck door opened from within, but with it open, had to squeeze past the loo queue to get to the door. A perfect oppertunity for others to enter!

I am told that other airlines close the curtain during flight and make an announcement that the forward toilet is not available. Seems very sensible to me, why is it not the case in BA?

Obviously on say the 747-400 there is no need to leave the "crew module" for a comfort break as all facilities are within. Such a shame that the powers that be decided against this "standard Boeing module" at the front of later longhaul aircraft aquisitions. It would have solved so many other problems as well ... perhaps I should contlinue in the "in charge" thread.
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 13:06
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If you're going to crash an a/c on final why bother getting on board & hoping to take over?

Any one of a number of weapons are perfectly capable of doing that from the ground - with the added benefit of a chance to do it from numerous locations, possibly to several aircraft &get away.

A few weapons are easy to smuggle into the country. It only takes a small boat...
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Old 14th Feb 2003, 22:22
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To all those at BA How do you explian a pax travelling from Caracas stopping twice enroute and then arriving in blighty with a live grenade in his bag??????? Just as well the flight deck door was locked huh!
What great security!
Wake up!
The whole flight deck door issue is simply PR for the PAX and does absolutley nothing to improve security it simply hinders comms. and CRM between the F/D and the crew. It is done simply to give the impression that airlines are doing something how ever useless.
I think we should leave scaremungary to the journos they seem to be doing a pretty good job without our help. Come on we are supposed to be informed professionals. Look at the results of the Jump seat poll for goodness sake to see what the general consensus is!
It is this kind of paranoia that got us all locked up in our little cells at 30,00ft in the first place.
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