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BA Pilot arrested in ARN ???

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BA Pilot arrested in ARN ???

Old 26th Jan 2003, 16:34
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Hotel Charlie.

A rule is a rule. Any (repeat any) alcohol intake 12 hours before taking command is a No No as far as I am concerned. That is what I was taught and I stick by it
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 16:39
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The point is obvious: there is no benefit in arguing whether the guy was hard done by or not.
The rules of play are simply different to what they used to be and they are not going to become any more lenient, ever.

The answer is simple:- if you want to keep your licence, don't drink the night before an early start. Not too much of a sacrifice for keeping a good job.

R
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 16:58
  #43 (permalink)  
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From what has been said it seems the level being exceeded was half a pint of beer. I must I find that slightly difficult to believe but anyway, when I was being trained to fly, the received position was that half a pint is the lowest amount of alcohol that could - at that time - be detected. Nevertheless half a pint of beer produces quantifiable reduction in pilot performance under test.

Please, everyone, make sure you have a zero alcohol level when you fly.

I believe, by the way, that Tube drivers (and other Underground workers) are randomly breathylised and will fail if they have been drinking the night before - so no sympathy about intrusions on your lifestyle.
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 17:46
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NigelOnDraft

Apologies!

I had (incorrectly) made the association of positioning on duty with wearing uniform which in most (all?) companies is a no no.

Shows the danger of making assumptions I guess!!!!!!!
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 18:14
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Not drunk...

As an ex cop I do remember some of the factors involved.

The blood/ alcohol limit on UK roads is 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood. If this guys reading was a quarter of this then it would equate in my experience - approximately - to one 'unit' (a half of beer, glass of wine or single shot of spirit) ie the sort of level routinely guzzled by professional pilots - civvy and military - in France with their lunch.

I also recall that alcohol is dissipated from the blood at around 15mg per hour - but with many variables involved.

I therefore reckon that 3 pints of 4 percent beer would have 'Mr average' 1 1/2 x times the driving limit and would almost certainly leave him with the sort of reading reported here in the early morning.

This guy wasn't ****@d and presumably got nicked just because somebody noticed his beer breath.

Secondly, the breath test administered at the scene is just a screening device. It is the basis for a request for further samples only.

Mouth alcohol will not convict you. A teaspoonfull of scotch swilled around your mouth will give an enormous reading. However, 20 minutes later - a very good margin to allow for such a highly volatile liquid to dissipate - will allow a sensible reading that reflects the true level of alcohol in your body - hence the question 'when did you have your last drink?'

A cop will always wait for 20 minutes on the roadside if you have just driven out of a pub.

All I would say to you guys - and I am just a hobby pilot who is usually found on the Private Flying and History forums only - is this-

If any of you have 2 or 3 pints of beer in an evening, go to bed reasonably early, get up feeling absolutely fine, pin-sharp and ready to do your professional job - you are probably at the same level as our poor unfortunate BA victim.

Without a doubt - there will be some trace of alcohol at the very least.

Don't risk it. Have a glass of wine with your dinner, or a single beer if you really feel the need but leave it at that. It ain't worth it.

The journo's have had a field day with this. Anybody reading the Mail on Sunday will believe that this bloke was dragged, reeling ****@d, from the cockpit.

No way.

There is already a great 'holier than thou' reaction - and there will be plenty more keen to have a pop at him.

However, how many others are reading this and thinking, 'that could have been me'?

HP
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 19:11
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Whist, I suppose one should commend the diligence(?) of the ARN staff .
I would like to point out that at an airport on the west coast of sweden I have reguarly complained about a far more dangerous situation than a pilot with a minimal alchohol level, namely a situation wherte the re fueuling supervisor leaves his position in order to assit the baggage loaders,
this came to the forefront on the day when smoke appeared from the bowser while it was not being monitored by the designated supervisor, in my opinion this was far more dangerous than the
ARN scenario

I have also experienced situations where at an airport in north west France I have twice had serious doubts about the sobriety of the same (very attractive) lady, who does the load sheet, including such coments on the flight deck as "Did you sjmell her breathe?", and then not too suppriesed to find major load
sheet errors
In future I will make sure that these people are subject to any available scrutiny which also applies to aircrew
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 20:01
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Hairyplane - an intelligent and considered addition. I only hope our Street of Shame tormentors will read it. How anyone armed with what I expect is a good degree can go into that profession and sleep at night I cannot imagine.

As someone whose recent life has consisted of 6 earlies, 2 days off then 6 earlies (which should of course be illegal but as a 7.30 take off on the continent doesnt count as an early despite a body clock 4.30 alarm call) I know how debilitating fatigue can be - far more dangerous than 2 or three pints 9 hours earlier. Now that is worth a serious investigation - but of course that would mean some hard work and the headline 'Pilots forget to arm Localiser due to Tiredness' doesnt really look as good in 44 point.
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 21:06
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and don't forget .....mouthwashes are out now early a.m. and don't spill any beer on yer trousers in the pub and wear them the next day . You'll be smelling of alcohol !!!!!!!!!

My father gave me some advice many moons ago......"Don't go on the razzle with Scandinavians......they can't handle it ......and they're obsessed with it" It proved to be good advice Most recently on th Necastle-Bergen ferry !!!!!

0.2 eh !!!!!!! half pint of beer .......nuff said


Good luck to the poor sod who fell into their clutches
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 23:06
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I second that 52049er , a reasoned and balanced approach is what is needed in a situation like this.
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Old 26th Jan 2003, 23:36
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A couple or three things come to mind.

When will the first pilot go to jail for being tired? Three people in the UK have now been jailed for causing an accident wile driving tired; the last one it seems was of perfect character before an unexplained excursion across the road which got him a year inside.

The assumption that a small amount of booze is OK is alway a little risky. It is the small amount that makes us think that a bit more will not matter too much, then just a drop...etc. etc.. This has always led me to believe that any crime that may be committed, is at the early stage of a drinking session. The planning should be as meticulous as fuel calculations, but then in a perfect world I would not be trying to sleep in the middle of a noisy town at noon, with the A/C out and a road drill outside.

Pilots have probably always resorted to alcohol to help with the difficult lifestyle. If we are to set new standards in sobriety, what will be done to aid proper sleep requirements?
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 00:27
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Just out of interest, are there many BA A320 pilots on 100,000, or is this simply reflective of the level of reporting on the subject? And is this a usual mount for someone of his seniority?

Thanks.
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 00:44
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One quick thought......

Did the swedish police break international law when they entered the aircraft??

As far as I know the inside of a british regestred aircraft is british soil, and foreign police have therefore no rights there. It is the same with aircraft as ships and embassies. I recall at least one insident where the police was about to enter a foreign aircraft to arrest some people but were quickly turned around at the door, because it breached international law and the sovernity of the sate the aircraft was regestred in.

Any komments??
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 02:08
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Xeque,

So what you are saying that to go out on a bender, drink 15 pints but stop 12 hours and 5 mins before flying is OK , but to drink half a pint 11 and 55 minutes before take off is a No No- is how you were taught to play the game .
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 03:39
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>>Did the swedish police break international law when they entered the aircraft??<<

Probably not, this hypothetical stuff about sovereign territory does not apply to a parked aircraft with the door open in most countries (including the U.S.). Law enforcement can and will enter the aircraft from my experience.

Anyway, according to BA, they caught the alleged drunk pilot before he got to the cockpit. From an earlier post in this thread:

>>BA spokeswoman

BA insisted that the pilot, reportedly in his 50s and from the London area, had not been close to flying the plane.

"Any suggestion that the pilot was removed from the cockpit is simply untrue," the spokeswoman said. <<
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 03:50
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If he has gone too close to the line and is dismissed, he will be able to make a small fortune by taking the previously named newspapers to court.

I'm sure there are plenty of witnesses to say that he was not dragged from the cockpit etc...
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 04:25
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Lightbulb

Lock the flight deck door and refuse to open it for twelve hours - seriously!!!
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 07:37
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Just out of interest, are there many BA A320 pilots on 100,000, or is this simply reflective of the level of reporting on the subject? And is this a usual mount for someone of his seniority?
I wish, I wish! He would be making a good salary but it is somewhat irrelevant in my thinking.

Does anybody know how many airliners have crashed due to pilots being intoxicated?

Senator McCarthy would be proud if he could observe the witch hunts that are now taking place, in so many areas, with such zeal by so many.

Does anybody have any idea when we will arrive at Utopia where life will be devoid of any risk whatsoever?
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 08:23
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The swedish rules

The swedish rules are as follows:
24 hrs before duty one must drink with care, i.e. a pint or so...
8 hrs before duty you are not allowed to drink anything containing alcohol and one must be able to drive a car according to swedish regulations, wich is 0,2 promille.
When checking in for duty the limit is 0,0.

These are the rules we are supposed to follow when we fly on our swedish licence, wherever we fly in the world.
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 08:56
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If any of it turns out to be true (IF!) then good riddance. The industry has had enough setbacks to last a lifetime.

However, every cloud.....that's one more vacancy to be filled by someone a little more responsible.
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Old 27th Jan 2003, 09:17
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witchdoctor,
someone more responsible,such as you I suppose ?
With that charming attitude,no wonder you would like to fill the void,if this unfortunate guy is kicked out of BA.
A PPL and six hundred hours on Flight Sim 2000 does not give you the right to pre-judge a PROFESSIONAL pilot.
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