To scab or not to scab in Cathay, that's the question !
Top Dog
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Attn KaptainM
Air Traffic Controllers, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Operations, Crewing and Rostering staff are also welcome as well as anybody else with a connection or interest in professional aviation.
You agreed to this when you signed up;
Quote
Put simply, Doc, this IS a pilots' forum, and the views of All_scabbed_up are NOT those of the MAJORITY of pilots.
So when someone attempts to represent him/her self as one of our profession, and the characteristics OBVIOUSLY belie the profession, he/she attracts the flamings you have witnessed
Unquote
These are the rules, you agreed by signing up to PPRuNe. Don't slag off your non-pilot colleagues.
Otherwise just following this thread out of interest
Air Traffic Controllers, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Operations, Crewing and Rostering staff are also welcome as well as anybody else with a connection or interest in professional aviation.
You agreed to this when you signed up;
Quote
Put simply, Doc, this IS a pilots' forum, and the views of All_scabbed_up are NOT those of the MAJORITY of pilots.
So when someone attempts to represent him/her self as one of our profession, and the characteristics OBVIOUSLY belie the profession, he/she attracts the flamings you have witnessed
Unquote
These are the rules, you agreed by signing up to PPRuNe. Don't slag off your non-pilot colleagues.
Otherwise just following this thread out of interest
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I can't but wonder how the disasterous A & B scale came to be. Surely that alone would have caused division and resentment in the first place, between crews.
As for that, to my mind, haven't, or didn't the A scalars sell out their colleuges, B scalars, along time ago, by allowing such a division. Having people on different terms and conditions, is a recipe for disaster. The CRM must be terrible at times?
Good luck to you all.
As for that, to my mind, haven't, or didn't the A scalars sell out their colleuges, B scalars, along time ago, by allowing such a division. Having people on different terms and conditions, is a recipe for disaster. The CRM must be terrible at times?
Good luck to you all.
Grandpa Aerotart
Bob,
An A scale mate told me a few years ago how B scale came to be. The company came to the pilots and said "Hey guys we need to cut costs, this won't effect you but we want to hire all future pilots on a B scale".
Said A scalers said " Well it won't effect us so who cares". Unfortunately they didn't recognise the the thin edge of the wedge driven by a management with no scruples.
Chuck.
An A scale mate told me a few years ago how B scale came to be. The company came to the pilots and said "Hey guys we need to cut costs, this won't effect you but we want to hire all future pilots on a B scale".
Said A scalers said " Well it won't effect us so who cares". Unfortunately they didn't recognise the the thin edge of the wedge driven by a management with no scruples.
Chuck.
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>>I personnaly [sic] believe that an Australian with the education required to gain employment in the pre 89 Domestic Airlines of Australia could have such poor writing skills as to make a post almost unreadable!<<
Agreed, that fellow could never have typed his own AFAP resignation fax!
>>I can't but wonder how the disasterous A & B scale came to be. Surely that alone would have caused division and resentment in the first place, between crews.<<
The B-scale was the brainchild of CEO Bob Crandall of American Airlines, implemented in a 1983 contract. It was sold to the pilots as "don't worry, it's only for the new guys..." It spread through the U.S. airlines like a virus until the unions wised up. A later variant is the "Express" alter ego operation with lower wages and less favorable work rules, this still exists at some places like Delta and US Airways.
Agreed, that fellow could never have typed his own AFAP resignation fax!
>>I can't but wonder how the disasterous A & B scale came to be. Surely that alone would have caused division and resentment in the first place, between crews.<<
The B-scale was the brainchild of CEO Bob Crandall of American Airlines, implemented in a 1983 contract. It was sold to the pilots as "don't worry, it's only for the new guys..." It spread through the U.S. airlines like a virus until the unions wised up. A later variant is the "Express" alter ego operation with lower wages and less favorable work rules, this still exists at some places like Delta and US Airways.
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Beats me where people get these astronomical salary figures for CX from. The highest paid pilot in the company must be the DFO who is at present making sure no one else gets close - ever! Bet his is the salary the SCMP uses as an illustration of 'overpaid pilots'.Please be assured no one gets a pension from Cathay - just a lump sum, which to the average 15 yr retiree who has to invest it somewhere, falls far short of that necessary to give a pension of even half that received by a similar guy from BA. Also the price of £2.50 for a pint in London is a snip compared to Nathan Road! Maybe encourage people you dont like to scab in H.K then they will end up worse than they are now!! 
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A final torpedo for CX management`s [b]All_scabbed_up_again[\b]. The profile presented was too specific - 14 years with AN, never scabbed, now 51 years old, current aircraft type, and location - make you too easily identifiable, as you (the "creator" of All_scabbed_up_again) was obviously unaware that ALL the ex-89`ers are on a computerised record maintained by one of guys...the details include dob, AN Coy number, date of joining, etc.
Bye bye, All_scabbed_up_again!
For those of you who MIGHT be tempted with any Cathay offers that have yet to appear, the change in lifestyle between living and working in Asia - esp. Hong Kong - is only ONE reason for CX paying the salaries they have HAD TO, to attract pilots.
But MOST importantly, you really would NOT want to be labelled a "scab" for the REST of your life, which you will be, if you try to replace any of the current Cathay pilots.
All the best CX guys - hope the APU problems in FUK didn't infringe on your crew rest!!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
Bye bye, All_scabbed_up_again!
For those of you who MIGHT be tempted with any Cathay offers that have yet to appear, the change in lifestyle between living and working in Asia - esp. Hong Kong - is only ONE reason for CX paying the salaries they have HAD TO, to attract pilots.
But MOST importantly, you really would NOT want to be labelled a "scab" for the REST of your life, which you will be, if you try to replace any of the current Cathay pilots.
All the best CX guys - hope the APU problems in FUK didn't infringe on your crew rest!!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
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I have no idea if "I lost my password-doh!" is for real and I really can't be bothered to read all his postings BUT he is one bitter and twisted poor S.O.B.
He and his friend's wives all left and his Son didn't invite him to his wedding.
Poor b*st%!d could be management!
Good luck guys, I hope no one has the regrets that this bloke claims to have....
He and his friend's wives all left and his Son didn't invite him to his wedding.
Poor b*st%!d could be management!
Good luck guys, I hope no one has the regrets that this bloke claims to have....
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"all-scabbed-up" I thought I knew how to rub people's noses in it...but you take the prize...good post about the sad truths of our decaying industry.....
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Dear Gentlemen!
I am not with CX but with Lufti and would like to spill my 2 cents - make it 20000 cents. Pleeaaaaaseee excuse my spelling etc.. english is not my mother language and I am writing here in a cafe without the time to structure my words.
We had a strike and it was a nasty one. The company did everything to discredit us in public and inside the company.The gave out infos to the press which were deliberately wrong eg. we only work 78 hrs inkl preperation, turnaround etc.. make x amount cash etc.. the usuall bull. I wrote our management that all I want is what they publish and i will be a scab. LH cancelled a newspaper ( Süddeutsche Newspaper) which wrote a few balanced! articles immediately, of course because of lack of demand.. We found out through calling them why they no longer are offered on board our flights, and they told us - most pilots ordered a subscription.
Mgmnt organised a "sponanious" demonstration against us of with the catering, Maint. and Groundstaff.. Funny thing was they all had printed high gloss posters...normally take a week to do... Basically it was a bit nasty. We all stuck together and we got a good deal, not perfect but there are still some contracts up for negotiation, and now we are trying to get back to normal, which is impossible in my opinion, since the actions from the mgmnt side inkl flying mgnt were unexcusable. They feel the pinch now and will for a long time.
A few scabs flew during our strike. We published a list of them internally and rest assured they are going through hell!! Just had a 5 day trip with one from the list. I gave him a chance to state his reasons. He couldnt and those 5 days were not funny for him! And this will go on for a loooong time. There is a lot to do and let happen in 5 days, belive me.
This should be considered by those charakterless spinless pilots (I remember a GA Bush flyer and a few others)when you join CX now. It will stick for a long time and believe me its no fun. It s because of such uneducated pricks like them that our industry is slowly going down. If we all could wait a few weeks, it will be for the benifit of all.
But stupit bushfliers like him dont see the big picture.
He complains about his current working condition but has he ever thought why his working conditions are so low? Maybe because the likes of him will fly for food? Will pay for their own rating? Will do anything to get a job? Well there you go!! And now you want to do the same thing again? I am sure you will be dumb enough to complain in a few years when the condtions of service at the new company you basically scabed into go down!! Your entry date will show up and its not funny to come into the crewlounge with all the other people there already informed what you are. I did it and will do it again with our scabs.
Maybe somebody could publish a list of your managers, CEO, Personell and flight ops guys involved in the sackings. Just a list here with name and function, like your ceo, deputies, fleetguys, personell office guys etc.. just for info for everybody so we know who works where in CX, not to be missused of course against them.....
You never know who asks for a jumpseat, upgrading "voluntary" offloading, lost baggage etc...Also if one of these incompetent pricks comes to a company nearby it is good to know where he came from. Or just mail it to me if Danny is unhappy with a simple list of names and functions with no add. text. Should not be illegal i think.
Remember It is up to us pilots to make a flight from a-b profitable or a huge loss!A few mini decisions where nobody can piss up your leg and they can scrach their bonus pay, did it bevor and will do it again.
We pilots are always directly responsible for our action. We stuff it up there are 3 options: Dead, Hospital or Court room or a combination of all.And we will get no money whatsoever! albeit our daily risks. Managers can f... up as much as the want and they get 3 options: Golden Handshake (take a few million marks), Promotion or nothing happens!
They argue since they can be replaced day to day they need these fall back options in their contract. Well it can happen to me as well, day to day even more than a seat warming pencil pusher. And lets not forget, what these guys are doing is not a big deal. Although my english is bad, I have a Magister (Degree in Europe) and elected to go for my passion, but I know the mgmnt is only cooking with water like everybody else. When I finished my degree in my first job as a product mngr I woke up. Could have saved me the 5 years of learning. It was all comon sense and logics. Its information, vision and decision. So we should also consider the fact that they can as well be replaced immediately and there are hundreds waiting to get in 4 years of experience in HKG, just like me when I finished my degree. So dont be intimidated by them. What angers me is that because of the current system every mgr brings up the stock for the 4 year goal so he gets his options in, and that there is no possibility to hold him accoutable after that. In reality it is just a game of cashing in on your options as a friend of mine told me - he is Head of marketing with a carrental. You come, bring up the game and leave for better grounds for another round. And all the upper mgnt staff that stays follows the four yearplan of the ceo in respect to the stock price, then you sell and wait for the new guy. There is no nostalgic touch to build a company, build values, blablabla - sad, but true. So lets force them to at least let us live. We have to spoon out the soup they cook and I want money for that.
CX Fellows, stick it out ( till all are reinstated), remain united and get advice from ALPA and the like on PR and tactics. They all cook with water, so we all can cook as well. Rostering is the most important thing in everybodys life next to job security and pay. All three are gone with cx and I cannot imagine that to many good pilots are interested in a job there. colleages of mine applied and retreated after the sacking.
There is a good book "The dairy of a union buster" seems like the mgmnt read it. Ours did! By the way is the work to rule, what we all do anyway everyday, also with the based guys in Europe. Saw no disruption here with the cargo ops in FRA , which runs under a LH Flight number. Is their rostering also influenced by HKG or are the VETA guys considered a seperate lot in CX?
Sorry to bore you guys here, but one more thing. Be aware that on a "hundred dollar" flight ticket only 1.9 dollars are the costs for the flight crew! 40 Dollars are Marketing,Sales and Admin!! Have it in writing from our CEO in a gloosy infobrochure on the costs involved on a 100DM ticket. Very interesting i might say. Lets save a bit of money on the 40% factor!! Sorry once more for my spelling, its very late.
All the best and GOOD LUCK!
edited for the most obvious mistakes, good night!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]
I am not with CX but with Lufti and would like to spill my 2 cents - make it 20000 cents. Pleeaaaaaseee excuse my spelling etc.. english is not my mother language and I am writing here in a cafe without the time to structure my words.
We had a strike and it was a nasty one. The company did everything to discredit us in public and inside the company.The gave out infos to the press which were deliberately wrong eg. we only work 78 hrs inkl preperation, turnaround etc.. make x amount cash etc.. the usuall bull. I wrote our management that all I want is what they publish and i will be a scab. LH cancelled a newspaper ( Süddeutsche Newspaper) which wrote a few balanced! articles immediately, of course because of lack of demand.. We found out through calling them why they no longer are offered on board our flights, and they told us - most pilots ordered a subscription.
Mgmnt organised a "sponanious" demonstration against us of with the catering, Maint. and Groundstaff.. Funny thing was they all had printed high gloss posters...normally take a week to do... Basically it was a bit nasty. We all stuck together and we got a good deal, not perfect but there are still some contracts up for negotiation, and now we are trying to get back to normal, which is impossible in my opinion, since the actions from the mgmnt side inkl flying mgnt were unexcusable. They feel the pinch now and will for a long time.
A few scabs flew during our strike. We published a list of them internally and rest assured they are going through hell!! Just had a 5 day trip with one from the list. I gave him a chance to state his reasons. He couldnt and those 5 days were not funny for him! And this will go on for a loooong time. There is a lot to do and let happen in 5 days, belive me.
This should be considered by those charakterless spinless pilots (I remember a GA Bush flyer and a few others)when you join CX now. It will stick for a long time and believe me its no fun. It s because of such uneducated pricks like them that our industry is slowly going down. If we all could wait a few weeks, it will be for the benifit of all.
But stupit bushfliers like him dont see the big picture.
He complains about his current working condition but has he ever thought why his working conditions are so low? Maybe because the likes of him will fly for food? Will pay for their own rating? Will do anything to get a job? Well there you go!! And now you want to do the same thing again? I am sure you will be dumb enough to complain in a few years when the condtions of service at the new company you basically scabed into go down!! Your entry date will show up and its not funny to come into the crewlounge with all the other people there already informed what you are. I did it and will do it again with our scabs.
Maybe somebody could publish a list of your managers, CEO, Personell and flight ops guys involved in the sackings. Just a list here with name and function, like your ceo, deputies, fleetguys, personell office guys etc.. just for info for everybody so we know who works where in CX, not to be missused of course against them.....
You never know who asks for a jumpseat, upgrading "voluntary" offloading, lost baggage etc...Also if one of these incompetent pricks comes to a company nearby it is good to know where he came from. Or just mail it to me if Danny is unhappy with a simple list of names and functions with no add. text. Should not be illegal i think.
Remember It is up to us pilots to make a flight from a-b profitable or a huge loss!A few mini decisions where nobody can piss up your leg and they can scrach their bonus pay, did it bevor and will do it again.
We pilots are always directly responsible for our action. We stuff it up there are 3 options: Dead, Hospital or Court room or a combination of all.And we will get no money whatsoever! albeit our daily risks. Managers can f... up as much as the want and they get 3 options: Golden Handshake (take a few million marks), Promotion or nothing happens!
They argue since they can be replaced day to day they need these fall back options in their contract. Well it can happen to me as well, day to day even more than a seat warming pencil pusher. And lets not forget, what these guys are doing is not a big deal. Although my english is bad, I have a Magister (Degree in Europe) and elected to go for my passion, but I know the mgmnt is only cooking with water like everybody else. When I finished my degree in my first job as a product mngr I woke up. Could have saved me the 5 years of learning. It was all comon sense and logics. Its information, vision and decision. So we should also consider the fact that they can as well be replaced immediately and there are hundreds waiting to get in 4 years of experience in HKG, just like me when I finished my degree. So dont be intimidated by them. What angers me is that because of the current system every mgr brings up the stock for the 4 year goal so he gets his options in, and that there is no possibility to hold him accoutable after that. In reality it is just a game of cashing in on your options as a friend of mine told me - he is Head of marketing with a carrental. You come, bring up the game and leave for better grounds for another round. And all the upper mgnt staff that stays follows the four yearplan of the ceo in respect to the stock price, then you sell and wait for the new guy. There is no nostalgic touch to build a company, build values, blablabla - sad, but true. So lets force them to at least let us live. We have to spoon out the soup they cook and I want money for that.
CX Fellows, stick it out ( till all are reinstated), remain united and get advice from ALPA and the like on PR and tactics. They all cook with water, so we all can cook as well. Rostering is the most important thing in everybodys life next to job security and pay. All three are gone with cx and I cannot imagine that to many good pilots are interested in a job there. colleages of mine applied and retreated after the sacking.
There is a good book "The dairy of a union buster" seems like the mgmnt read it. Ours did! By the way is the work to rule, what we all do anyway everyday, also with the based guys in Europe. Saw no disruption here with the cargo ops in FRA , which runs under a LH Flight number. Is their rostering also influenced by HKG or are the VETA guys considered a seperate lot in CX?
Sorry to bore you guys here, but one more thing. Be aware that on a "hundred dollar" flight ticket only 1.9 dollars are the costs for the flight crew! 40 Dollars are Marketing,Sales and Admin!! Have it in writing from our CEO in a gloosy infobrochure on the costs involved on a 100DM ticket. Very interesting i might say. Lets save a bit of money on the 40% factor!! Sorry once more for my spelling, its very late.
All the best and GOOD LUCK!
edited for the most obvious mistakes, good night!
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]
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He's right.
The cheapest two professionals in the operation, are the two looking through the windscreen.
2% for two!
Pretty cheap costing.
And still the managements complain.
So what is the reason?
Easy targets. Always hope to get enough to scab.
Doesn't always work though - if you stick together.
The cheapest two professionals in the operation, are the two looking through the windscreen.
2% for two!
Pretty cheap costing.
And still the managements complain.
So what is the reason?
Easy targets. Always hope to get enough to scab.
Doesn't always work though - if you stick together.
Bob, Chimbu, Airbubba, and especially CWS: very good points about our business: the mostly retired SOBs at American who sold the future new-hires' salaries down the river, and about the scabs or scabs-in-waiting.
We had a list of Eastern scabs (who now work for us) posted in the main flight bag room at a northern crew base. Nobody can go back in a time machine and change the fact that they decided to work as a SCAB. Their names stay on permanent lists in order to remind everybody who the most selfish pilots are, whether their pilot group is now represented by ALPA or not (i.e. Continental). That still does not change what they did.
They care nothing about the market value of their skills as a pilot. Some might need to impress women (and guys/gals at a high school reunion) with their pilot uniform in order to "get lucky". They are the most self-seeking chumps and suckers in our profession. Continental allegedly hired one during their strike in '83-84, who was a convicted child molester. Maybe it was true or not, but Continental would hire whoever it needed, in order to move airplanes from point A to B.
Lorenzo's only goal was to break the back of organized labor, no matter what the results. Look at what Continental was like between the iron-fisted exploitation of Lorenzo (check on how the seniority lists were put together...) and the rebirth under Gordon Bethune. Is it a paradox that highly-successful Southwest Airlines has been heavily unionized for many years?
Maybe it is not a paradox- Southwest seems to be one of the few US airlines to have had inspired leadership and a commitment from upper management to look at more than just the short-term cost structure.
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
We had a list of Eastern scabs (who now work for us) posted in the main flight bag room at a northern crew base. Nobody can go back in a time machine and change the fact that they decided to work as a SCAB. Their names stay on permanent lists in order to remind everybody who the most selfish pilots are, whether their pilot group is now represented by ALPA or not (i.e. Continental). That still does not change what they did.
They care nothing about the market value of their skills as a pilot. Some might need to impress women (and guys/gals at a high school reunion) with their pilot uniform in order to "get lucky". They are the most self-seeking chumps and suckers in our profession. Continental allegedly hired one during their strike in '83-84, who was a convicted child molester. Maybe it was true or not, but Continental would hire whoever it needed, in order to move airplanes from point A to B.
Lorenzo's only goal was to break the back of organized labor, no matter what the results. Look at what Continental was like between the iron-fisted exploitation of Lorenzo (check on how the seniority lists were put together...) and the rebirth under Gordon Bethune. Is it a paradox that highly-successful Southwest Airlines has been heavily unionized for many years?
Maybe it is not a paradox- Southwest seems to be one of the few US airlines to have had inspired leadership and a commitment from upper management to look at more than just the short-term cost structure.
[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
