View Poll Results: Should the jump seat be available for wannabe or family familiarisation flights?
Yes, the DfT rule is idiotic
1,740
89.19%
No, there is too much risk involved
182
9.33%
No opinion
29
1.49%
Voters: 1951. This poll is closed
DfT/CAA Jump Seat Restrictions
A&C.
I think you will find that the BA, like us, are now implementing the new, and much derided, rules from the DTR that ban anybody not operationally involved with the flight from sitting on the jumpseats. If they are doing otherwise then I suspect it won't be for long because some big nose at the Ministry will get to here about it.
I think you will find that the BA, like us, are now implementing the new, and much derided, rules from the DTR that ban anybody not operationally involved with the flight from sitting on the jumpseats. If they are doing otherwise then I suspect it won't be for long because some big nose at the Ministry will get to here about it.
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J/Seat Restrictions - Barmy!
So, lets see Mr DTLR, you wish to fly to where? ALC? Well I'm sorry the flight is full.......
So you wish to use the Jump Seat? We're going to have to ask the Captain, I'm afraid.
A little while later....... I'm sorry is it for pleasure this flight or business? Pleasure..... ?! I'm sorry Capt A can't allow that under the current DTLR restrictions...... Whats that, you're security cleared? Well as Capt A is in overall command, then he's unable to allow you on the Flight Deck!
So, you work for the airline, your C/crew or F/crew, you know all the operating crew, everyone else in your party has got on but your on Sby! You can use the Jump seat! No you can't.....some DTLR inspector has taken that privledge away.....
I work for a Charter airline, someone I know is a Tower Controller here at Gods own airport. He also works for an aviation magazine. Can I arrange him a J/seat ride, NO! Can I get my Father (retired Ops Controller) a Fam flight with my company - No! Even though he's an ex policeman, RAF (VRT) officer (therefore signed the Offical Secrets Act) and an avid aviation fan.........No!
Even our own Flight Ops Director can't sanction it!
As I haven't read all the replys to this thread - I apologise if I'm repeating this, but there is talk that Westminster are looking to change the wording of the ANO to state that it will effectively be illegal for anyone not directly involved in a civil air transport flight to be in the Flight Deck .
So (as others have pointed out) - No wannabe Fam Flights, No Company Fam Flights...etc etc.
It's getting to the point where we will have to start lobbying M.P's and Mininsters of State - Danny - Backto you!
So you wish to use the Jump Seat? We're going to have to ask the Captain, I'm afraid.
A little while later....... I'm sorry is it for pleasure this flight or business? Pleasure..... ?! I'm sorry Capt A can't allow that under the current DTLR restrictions...... Whats that, you're security cleared? Well as Capt A is in overall command, then he's unable to allow you on the Flight Deck!
So, you work for the airline, your C/crew or F/crew, you know all the operating crew, everyone else in your party has got on but your on Sby! You can use the Jump seat! No you can't.....some DTLR inspector has taken that privledge away.....
I work for a Charter airline, someone I know is a Tower Controller here at Gods own airport. He also works for an aviation magazine. Can I arrange him a J/seat ride, NO! Can I get my Father (retired Ops Controller) a Fam flight with my company - No! Even though he's an ex policeman, RAF (VRT) officer (therefore signed the Offical Secrets Act) and an avid aviation fan.........No!
Even our own Flight Ops Director can't sanction it!
As I haven't read all the replys to this thread - I apologise if I'm repeating this, but there is talk that Westminster are looking to change the wording of the ANO to state that it will effectively be illegal for anyone not directly involved in a civil air transport flight to be in the Flight Deck .
So (as others have pointed out) - No wannabe Fam Flights, No Company Fam Flights...etc etc.
It's getting to the point where we will have to start lobbying M.P's and Mininsters of State - Danny - Backto you!
I call you back
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Nuts!
As far as I know the UK are the only European country to introduce such FAA style nonsense this side of the ocean. I am delighted to see the sort of reaction that this has generated among UK based pilots and hope that you manage to reverse this before we all get carried away in the crazed momentum of this fight against terrorism.
What next? Pilots must carry minimum fuel to reduce the potential damage of a hi-jacking? Single crew operations are mandatory to reduce the lightlihood of a traitor in the cockpit, the right seat will be occupied by a state security officer ( air marshall ) who shall be the commander!
Any decision taken away from us is never in, my experience, returned. Don't let them take this away from you!
What next? Pilots must carry minimum fuel to reduce the potential damage of a hi-jacking? Single crew operations are mandatory to reduce the lightlihood of a traitor in the cockpit, the right seat will be occupied by a state security officer ( air marshall ) who shall be the commander!
Any decision taken away from us is never in, my experience, returned. Don't let them take this away from you!
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Try this one:
http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm
Try this for Mr Darling
http://www.locata.co.uk/cgi-bin/webd...ns_mail&id=727
http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm
Try this for Mr Darling
http://www.locata.co.uk/cgi-bin/webd...ns_mail&id=727
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Iberia
Hello guys and girls,
I recently flew a few times with Iberia to ALC from AMS via BCN and had no trouble in getting the jump-seat on all 6 ocasions.
I asked the Captain whether there are any rules regarding this according to some of them it was PIC who decided and the others said they where not aware of any rules,
can anyone clarify this? is this true?
There doesn't seem to be many IB aircrew here.
Cheers
FS
I recently flew a few times with Iberia to ALC from AMS via BCN and had no trouble in getting the jump-seat on all 6 ocasions.
I asked the Captain whether there are any rules regarding this according to some of them it was PIC who decided and the others said they where not aware of any rules,
can anyone clarify this? is this true?
There doesn't seem to be many IB aircrew here.
Cheers
FS
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Arrived into stanstead on the jump seat of a German carrier yesterday. The company rule is that the captain may allow anyone he wishes onto the flight deck.
The reasoning is that if you want to get onto the flight deck you will anyway. If you sit on the front row, just wait for the hostie to open the door and bash her over the head with a rolled up newspaper or even a fist..then you are in..if you are really lucky the airline would have fitted a new high security door so when you have finshed the flight deck crew off with the crash axe, no one else can come into the flight deck and bother you.
Now we all are aware the ruling is ridiculous, so are we going to be British and just moan about it and do nothing or take action? My proposals
1. Tell Balpa to make it a top priority with lobying, press releases, etc to stop this nonsense, if not lets all resign from balpa and start a new union.
2. If other european carriers can fly into the uk without these ridiculous restrictions we should isssue a writ against the government and against the ministers personally who are responsible.
This ruling has placed us in an unfair position. Safety is reduced and loosing jump seat rights costs me money. Lets put a value on this and make a claim. Lets get media attention and ,maybe the fools will back down!
I offer £1000 to set up a fighting fund. We are professionals and our voice should be heard. Why should a bunch of ignorant fools endanger our safety and inconvenience us.
Anyone else got the guts to contribute, it's our industry, or are we just going to sit back and have our position compromised?
Wake up...wake up...wake up
PS the German authorities only allowed operating crew in the fd for a few months after 9-11, whilst they reviewed the security. Now it is ok
The reasoning is that if you want to get onto the flight deck you will anyway. If you sit on the front row, just wait for the hostie to open the door and bash her over the head with a rolled up newspaper or even a fist..then you are in..if you are really lucky the airline would have fitted a new high security door so when you have finshed the flight deck crew off with the crash axe, no one else can come into the flight deck and bother you.
Now we all are aware the ruling is ridiculous, so are we going to be British and just moan about it and do nothing or take action? My proposals
1. Tell Balpa to make it a top priority with lobying, press releases, etc to stop this nonsense, if not lets all resign from balpa and start a new union.
2. If other european carriers can fly into the uk without these ridiculous restrictions we should isssue a writ against the government and against the ministers personally who are responsible.
This ruling has placed us in an unfair position. Safety is reduced and loosing jump seat rights costs me money. Lets put a value on this and make a claim. Lets get media attention and ,maybe the fools will back down!
I offer £1000 to set up a fighting fund. We are professionals and our voice should be heard. Why should a bunch of ignorant fools endanger our safety and inconvenience us.
Anyone else got the guts to contribute, it's our industry, or are we just going to sit back and have our position compromised?
Wake up...wake up...wake up
PS the German authorities only allowed operating crew in the fd for a few months after 9-11, whilst they reviewed the security. Now it is ok
Last edited by come on then; 9th Jan 2003 at 17:57.
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I think my solution will make people sit up and take notice. If all UK Politicians are quietly advised by BALPA and privately by individual pilots that until this absurd legislation is rescinded, then any civil aeroplane containing UK Politicians is unlikely to actually move , let alone fly , until that Politician removes himself from the machine, then we might get somewhere. To 'black' anything containing a Politician, particularly flights to Seychelles, Tuscany, New York etc will help focus their minds before the summer recess approaches. I think it is the only way to get their attention, and can work if we apply it as rigidly as possible. During a work to rule, I remember hearing how pilots were counting paper clips in little envelopes (on the library list of the aeroplane). When the point gets home, then attention will be given.
Until then, if even my wife is not allowed on the FD because she may be a terrorist, then nobody else is either, not CAA inspectors, flight management, anybody .
Until then, if even my wife is not allowed on the FD because she may be a terrorist, then nobody else is either, not CAA inspectors, flight management, anybody .
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Notso,
Well said... and extend this to any civil servant at the DOT, as they are the ones that thought up the jump seat rule in the first place... and of course, their families as well.
It would be an extremely satisfying way to make our point.
Well said... and extend this to any civil servant at the DOT, as they are the ones that thought up the jump seat rule in the first place... and of course, their families as well.
It would be an extremely satisfying way to make our point.
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As I mentioned in a previous post I wrote to my MP who passed it onto the Minister at the DTR. I raised virtually all the points that have been voiced on this thread and the reply I received was, as expected, a complete waste of paper! What infuriated me more than anything was that the minister stated that these new rules came into effect after "a long consultation process with all Airlines and agencies involved" . Well that's very interesting because having shown the letter to my Ops Director he informs me that there was no consultation, rather - 'this is what we are going to intoduce whether you like it or not'! Apparently, at the last meeting held with the DTR, at which every UK airline was present, every Airline (bar 2, who expressed no particular opinion) asked for a compromise solution. I gather it was along the lines of only own staff with ID allowed on jump seat or by special authorisation (which covers the case for NATS Famil flights). DTR refused to budge and won't even discuss a compromise.
What is also interesting is that my company's CAA Ops inspector tells me that there is great unease within elements of the CAA that the CAA are being steamrollered by the Government and the DTR.
So where do we go from here? BALPA really must get going on this one as up to now they seem to have 'rolled over ' and accepted the DTR ruling. If we lose this one it will be gone for good.
What is also interesting is that my company's CAA Ops inspector tells me that there is great unease within elements of the CAA that the CAA are being steamrollered by the Government and the DTR.
So where do we go from here? BALPA really must get going on this one as up to now they seem to have 'rolled over ' and accepted the DTR ruling. If we lose this one it will be gone for good.
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Cobbler- the problem is realistically we don't know who are civil servants on our aeroplanes. But we do know when we have politicians on board, and this is the way to bring it home to them to 'think again'. Not many aeroplanes are 'clean'. Sometimes it can take a long time to examine faults or deficiencies. If our politicians (I find myself completely unable to use capitals on that word) know that whenever they get on an aeroplane, it probably ain't gonna move far, I think they well well decide this whole question needs 're-examining' in the light of 'changed circumstances'! I honestly think there is no other way that has any better chance of achieving success than carrying out sanctions such as this- we can talk amongst ourselves until we are blue in the face and write letters as nauseam (which will be ignored or fobbed off). But hit them where it hurts.......
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Notso...
There is a precedent to your idea I believe...
Something to do with the (female) NZ PM on an Ansett aircraft, was "stuck" for some hours at an Aus airport when the ground crew discovered she was aboard. Not entirely unconnected with Air NZ (and the NZ Govt) having milked Ansett dry and then dumped it into bankruptcy....
I'm sure my facts are somewhat inaccurate - however, the priciple I believe has some basis...
There is a precedent to your idea I believe...
Something to do with the (female) NZ PM on an Ansett aircraft, was "stuck" for some hours at an Aus airport when the ground crew discovered she was aboard. Not entirely unconnected with Air NZ (and the NZ Govt) having milked Ansett dry and then dumped it into bankruptcy....
I'm sure my facts are somewhat inaccurate - however, the priciple I believe has some basis...
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Capt. SlackB...exactly my points voiced some time ago in the early stages of this thread...
1. ICAO requires regulatory authority to be free of political/govt. interference and control...DETR's steamrollering is questionable in this respect in my opinion...
2. As usual they claim 'industry consultation'...whom, where, what...as usual does anyone vaguely know of anybody in their respective companies who was consulted on this?
1. ICAO requires regulatory authority to be free of political/govt. interference and control...DETR's steamrollering is questionable in this respect in my opinion...
2. As usual they claim 'industry consultation'...whom, where, what...as usual does anyone vaguely know of anybody in their respective companies who was consulted on this?
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Boss R
In answer to your second question - Yes!
In spring 02, the CAA called a group of aircrew (Flt Crew and Cabin crew) from across the industry. This group put forward various viewpoints which were parochial in part but formed the basis of the CAA recommendations to the DfT. The BA pilot rep was the only person in that group who continued to fight for its continued use.
CAA is responsible only for air safety - not security. The DfT are now solely responsible for aviation security. The DfT took advice from the CAA regarding the SAFETY aspects.
Capt. Slackbladder is right that those in the CAA have concerns that safety may be compromised but, at the risk of becoming repetitive, if those accessing the flight deck are only those with a need to be there, then there is not a safety issue no matter how inconvenient it may be
Anne .
In answer to your second question - Yes!
In spring 02, the CAA called a group of aircrew (Flt Crew and Cabin crew) from across the industry. This group put forward various viewpoints which were parochial in part but formed the basis of the CAA recommendations to the DfT. The BA pilot rep was the only person in that group who continued to fight for its continued use.
CAA is responsible only for air safety - not security. The DfT are now solely responsible for aviation security. The DfT took advice from the CAA regarding the SAFETY aspects.
Capt. Slackbladder is right that those in the CAA have concerns that safety may be compromised but, at the risk of becoming repetitive, if those accessing the flight deck are only those with a need to be there, then there is not a safety issue no matter how inconvenient it may be
Anne .
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Come on guys, this is easy,
Either befriend someone who lives in your beloved leader Blair"s constituency or move there yourself and let him know he will lose his seat over this and it will be gone before you have finished breakfast.
Either befriend someone who lives in your beloved leader Blair"s constituency or move there yourself and let him know he will lose his seat over this and it will be gone before you have finished breakfast.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Anne Nonymous
Your point about "need" to be there is correct as long as those who need to be there have proper security clearance.
I need to be convinced that all CC are initially and continually security checked.
The whole security package falls down every time that the FD door is opened for either pilots to come out, or cabin staff to go in when there is a toilet at the front of the aircraft and a queue of passengers.
Like all rushed legislation this one is poorly thought out. The galley/ fwd toilet is not a manufacturers product but designed by a third party. The new door is clearly in the wrong place and should have been put the other side of the toilet.
In the meantime a 3rd pilot on the FD should be an urgent consideration for security reasons alone. It will of course be resisted by those whose only concern is cost and their means of saving it is our conditions of service.
Finally would you like to name those who attended the meeting with the CAA?
Your point about "need" to be there is correct as long as those who need to be there have proper security clearance.
I need to be convinced that all CC are initially and continually security checked.
The whole security package falls down every time that the FD door is opened for either pilots to come out, or cabin staff to go in when there is a toilet at the front of the aircraft and a queue of passengers.
Like all rushed legislation this one is poorly thought out. The galley/ fwd toilet is not a manufacturers product but designed by a third party. The new door is clearly in the wrong place and should have been put the other side of the toilet.
In the meantime a 3rd pilot on the FD should be an urgent consideration for security reasons alone. It will of course be resisted by those whose only concern is cost and their means of saving it is our conditions of service.
Finally would you like to name those who attended the meeting with the CAA?
Last edited by sky9; 12th Jan 2003 at 09:31.
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i'm flying from singapore to london this friday on BA. My understanding is that if i went with Lufthansa i could get a jumpseat ride, but because it's a british carrier, eventhough i have a cpl/ir and a clean criminal record, with absolutely no entries on it, not even a speeding ticket, but no job, i still wouldn't be able to visit the flight deck in flight just to recindle some enthusiasm in aircraft. to be honest with you being without a proper job for a year is quite depressing and i reckon a jumpseat would do just the trick to get me fired up for the next round of cv sending. maybe i should talk to my housemate who is a senior member of staff for a lib-dem M.E.P. and make it a european issue. sorry about the above was just a rant at knee jerk politics which labour seems to be full of at the moment
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sky9
You make some valid points.
Cabin crew are subjected to exactly the same back ground checks as pilots. At least five years background has to be checked for the issue of an airside pass - I would prefer not to discuss the checks in this open forum.
The forward toilet area in most aircraft is too close to the flight deck door and I know of one company where the forward toilet on long haul is now only for the use of crew. (Doesn't please the first class pax too much but eventually you won't miss what you haven't got !) We have a policy of only opening the flt. deck door when the curtain is drawn, fwd toilet unoccupied and additional cc in the forward galley. It works.
Short haul within Europe I don't find it too much of a burden with just one door opening per sector - if that. Now with Phase 2 doors and video the problems reduce to insignificant. All British carriers with more than 19 seats will enjoy this scene 6 months ahead of the rest of Europe.
To answer your final question - No. But then, I am sure you wouldn't expect me to!
Anne
You make some valid points.
Cabin crew are subjected to exactly the same back ground checks as pilots. At least five years background has to be checked for the issue of an airside pass - I would prefer not to discuss the checks in this open forum.
The forward toilet area in most aircraft is too close to the flight deck door and I know of one company where the forward toilet on long haul is now only for the use of crew. (Doesn't please the first class pax too much but eventually you won't miss what you haven't got !) We have a policy of only opening the flt. deck door when the curtain is drawn, fwd toilet unoccupied and additional cc in the forward galley. It works.
Short haul within Europe I don't find it too much of a burden with just one door opening per sector - if that. Now with Phase 2 doors and video the problems reduce to insignificant. All British carriers with more than 19 seats will enjoy this scene 6 months ahead of the rest of Europe.
To answer your final question - No. But then, I am sure you wouldn't expect me to!
Anne