DfT/CAA Jump Seat Restrictions

[cloudskimmer]

I TOTALLY AGREE TOOOOOOO
as a ppl student i would love to be able to ride jumpseat... since 9/11 i have been in the pointy end twice but it was when parked at the gate with engines shut down.... but thanx to those pilots who broke the rules and said YES

i hope something more comes of this post......... but i feel deep inside it will take a long time if it ever happens.

i was on a myt flight from arrecife to leeds last week and i must admit the door was open more than shut

thanx again to all you pilots who agree js rides should still be allowed and i dare say most of you would say yes to us wannabes if you jobs did not depend on it

[kinsman]

The current security arrangements in the UK are designed to make the public feel safer and let the politicians show they are trying to do something about the situation.

Banning family and staff from the jump seat is daft in the extreme! This is an overreaction to a serious problem, the truth is full security will cost more money than any airline or Government is willing to pay. Anyway, no matter how much money you spend a determined terrorist will find a way to beat the system.

Passing through the Gatwick crew security area the other day I was asked to show the security guys the soles of my shoes! I am at the controls of the aircraft for gods sake I don’t need a bomb or sharp object. I have a fire axe with which to do in my F/O, and with the new flight deck door who is going to stop me crashing my aircraft into a tall building!

We need a coherent and well thought through security system. We need computer systems that can access details on passengers via passports at the time they book their tickets through to check in. This should be crosschecked against a database that contains criminal records, watch lists, etc. This of course would present problems with foreign nationals and would need to be coordinated with other countries security systems. Very expensive but are we serious about security or not.

The free world makes life easy for the terrorist, we need to change the way we address security issues urgently. Banning staff and family from the jump seat is a public relations exercise no more, someone needs to get a grip and deal with the real issues and stop prating around.

[Wings]

Fortunately for me, I work in an airline where captains are paid to make decisions. We also adhere to the policy of
"rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the observance of fools".
Is anybody reading this forum left in any doubt as to what happens on our aircraft if a crew member / family member needs or requests a jumpseat ?

Can you really take seriously the decrees from 'those in high places' whose best answer to the 'terrorist threat' is to ban steel knives on some flights but allow them on others ? (don't worry though, if you really want a steel knife, they are kept in a drawer in the rear galley).
Or decree that a door designed to break with a swift kick must now be locked to keep the baddies out. Or instead of the cabin crew asking you what you want to drink, now have to telephone you to ask, then open the door anyway.

By the way, Al Quaeda don't seem to strike the same targets twice. Are cruise ships now banned from steel knives ? Are passengers screened when boarding trains or busses ?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone

Cheers
Wings

[spagiola]

Just in case you might think that aviation authorities are uniquely gifted with the ability of 'solving' problems in ways that don't solve them and cause a myriad of other problems along the way, here's an interesting piece on the consequences of removing lockers in many US schools (for 'safety' reasons, of course).

NYT story

(You may need to register to see the story, but it's free)

[Celtic Emerald]

I used to love jumpseating & I'm saddened at the turn of events which makes visiting the cockpit a virtual impossibility these days. Still the memories of those pilots on Sep 11 having their throats slit etc by those evil psychopaths fills me with such revulsion & to be honest with you still brings tears to my eyes to this day that I'm willing to accept the restrictions with good grace even though I miss being up in the cockpit.

All I really care is about the safety of the pilots etc & I can understand the kneejerk reaction of aviation authorities. There are very few people who would do to human beings what those terrorists did to those poor pilots, but it's very hard to tell the good from the bad & it's easier for the authorities to cover themselves by introducing a blanket ban, I for one don't blame them no matter how unfair it seems.

Emerald

[Boss Raptor]

Well wont be the first time or the last that DOT Aviation Security Branch doesn't take into account either practicality or the opinions of the operators in their latest regulation/implementation...

Would be nice if these regulations were made without the obvious political interference and motivation that is so blatently clear particularly after 9/11!

ICAO requires that state aviation regulatory authorities are free of political connection/control or interference and therefore DOT interference in aviation security as principal seems a bit close to the mark...seems that DOT are able to steam roller past the CAA as usual...and/or the CAA just agrees without question...

No doubt as usual they will claim that 'the industry was consulted'...be nice to know whom and at what company and how representative of the industry they are...

[Stud3]

Surely the most practical way to prevent another sept. 11th is to prevent these maniacs getting on board the aircraft in the first place?

I think it is rediculous not allowing 'wannabes' into the flight deck. I remember back in 1992 when i was invited up front coming home from Orlando when i was 7 years old, and ever since my ambition has to become a pilot and i am determined to be one.

I ask on every occasion to visit the flightdeck, as a result of this i got to sit in the flight deck 2 times on landing into Reus with Airtours/Mytravel in 1998 and then in Aug 2001 (thanks to the guys at Skyservice) and on holiday to Mallorca, June last year i got to sit in the jumpseat of an Iberworld A310.

Experiences like this make me more determined to fulfill my ambition/dreams of becoming a pilot.

If they are going to stop F/Deck visits, at least allow young flyers a chance to view up front and maybe it may inspire them, like it did with me over 10 years ago.

[Paulf]

I should just like to say that as a Licenced Engineer I have flown many times on the jump seat and found the experience extremely useful (and enjoyable) in helping my everyday dealings on the line with flight crew. ( I no longer ask why you didn't spot EGT fluctuations on the left engine whilst on a busy approach!)
It makes the world of difference to see 'the other side of the coin' and I hope has made me a better engineer .Rulings such as this one will not help the industry at all.

Thanks to all the guys up front for taking the time and trouble to explain things from a pilots veiwpoint, and best of luck in getting this rule changed.

[oskartr]

I agree with and am a part of the 92%.

I have been trying to find this new rule on the CAA homepage without success.

Does anyone know where to find it? I am not a UK pilot so I may not have the information most of you have.

Anyway, I hope this rule will be changed soon!

[Ali Ronn]

What foresight the DETR have shown by banning friends and family from the flight deck...

A few months ago my 79 year old Jewish retired barrister father accompanied me on the flight deck of a 737 to Spain. I have subsequently discovered that he is in fact an under cover Islamic Al Queda terrorist and he had about his person the latest in the terrorist arsenel - yes - semtex impregnated denture cement.

The only thing that stood between us and the hereafter was the fact the crew didnt serve him anything hard enough in his meal to trigger an explosion.

Thanks to the bods at the DETR we are no longer in such mortal danger... I think we should give them three cheers.

Hip Hip - duh!

[etsd0001]

What gets me about these security measures is the anomoly that sharp objects are banned from the pax cabin, but possibly a hundred or so glass bottles (duty free's) can be taken in the cabin. I would have thought a broken bottle is more of a threat than a knitting needle.

I may be being cynical, but do you think they won't ban glass bottles because it might affect the airline/airport cash cow

[nojacketsrequired]

......plus wooden skewers of meat served in club,mirrors in the loo's,the list just goes on.



NJR.

[Junior Jet Club]

2 points really:

1. About the start of the year, I put in my pencil case in my nav bag a single sided razor blade, just to see how long it would take the so called 'heightened security' to find it. Having been through various intl airports around the world, it is still there virtually a year later....

2. Fortunately I work for an outfit that still allows flt deck visits. The biggest benefit being the release of the boredom factor, whether the visitor comes up front and says 'Wow, look at the view!' or something more intelligent, it's nice to speak to another individual other than your mates on the flt deck.

[Max Continuous]

Ahhhh, the power of PPrune!!
As if by magic, two enormous posters have suddenly appeared in our operations office detailing the powers of the CAA/DoT to board our aircraft and travel on the jumpseat at any time. Most helpfully they provide large pictures of the format of the inspectors' passes and if we require further verification they will produce an "authorisation book".
Are we still going to refuse them access?

[RatherBeFlying]

Now there's a perfect way to hijack an a/c. Forge a local CAA pass and authorisation book, wait for one crew to visit the loo. Close the secure door and take out the remaining crew member.

Does this poster tell you where to phone to verify the "inspector's" bona fides?

[Anne.Nonymous]

Max

Sorry to disappoint but the posters were issued over a month ago when the DfT issued new ID cards to their inspectors. The two in the crew room were placed there to let people know what the new passes look like.

They are DfT inspectors who have no right of access to the flight deck anyway except on the ground.

The CAA pilots are the only people who have right of access to the flight deck and their passes are unchanged. The CAA will not even allow their own non-pilot inspectors in the flight deck.

JJC

You obviously don't work for a British airline because flight deck access is not an airline option - it is a statutory requirement for ALL British AOC holders.

Anne

[fiftyfour]

Surely three or four reliable people in the flight deck is more secure than just two, when a terrorist tries to get into the flight deck.

Crew members known to the captain, especially those in the same company, should be allowed to request the jump seat.

I suggest that flight crew should be able to submit their wife/husband to their employer for the same security check applied to all airline flight crew employees. If the wives/husbands have a suitable and verifiable record they would get the clearance.

The captain, on the day, then decides whether to allow cockpit access - having taken into account all the circumsatances pertaining to his particular flight.

Simple and Secure.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Could someone from the DTI or whatever the've rebranded themselves this week explain why/how I am allowed on my flight deck?

No one knows who I am. My pass calls me "Captain" and names me. It even has my photo on it (which some say looks nothing like me). Did anyone check my Al-Quaida connections before I joined my present employer? Has anyone done so since I joined them, or since 11-9? The hell they have.
Have I ever been profiled? If yes, how did they accept the year I spent in and around a HIGHLY dodgy fanatical moslem "state" cos no one's ever bothered to ask me about it.

I think this whole "security" thing is an empty sham designed to pander to the witless hysteria of the public, show willing (kow-tow and grovel) to the media, to ensure imcreased empires in their parasitic bureaucracies that invent this garbage and for all I know actually assist the Terrs, cos nothing they've done to date has had a significant effect on hindering them.
Armoured doors when no-one has ever tried to shoot or kick one down, ban visits when no invited vsiitor has ever created a hi-jack, ditto friends, relatives and small kids. Fail to tell us for months never to leave the flight deck for any reason whatever - particularly if your cc are being slaughtered (I'm not sure I've actually been specifically told that even to date, which seems incredible) and than put combination locks on the new armoured doors that the cc have access to!!!! The mind boggles. Fine, put a bloody Chatsworth 40inch safe door in the way if you're worried, but to then give the clerk on the other side the key!!!!!!! That is utter insanity. Or utter hypocrisy. Or simply madness. Why not just leave the door open, it would make no difference (except to the pensions of the civil-parsites in the Ministry, and the wealth of the industries that bebefit from the umpteen billions of business these fatuous modifications cost)

Whose side are these bloody government paper-shufflers on? Not ours, or the side of increased safety, thats for sure.

Flannel, obfuscation, hot air and bullsh!t. Shame on them.

[nojacketsrequired]

Agaricus Bisporus,

Possibly one of the best postings yet on this gvt sham.

Further on the point how do you know when I bring your cuppa in
that I don't intend to harm you (and I'm not saying I make a bad cuppa)as you don't know where my sympathies lie !!?>

The whole thing is ,as you say just for the public and to make them happy and before people jump down my throat yes I do want them to be happy and fly with us.

But how many more would be even happier if their child could visit the flight deck(escorted) and make their flight really special as it used to be?.

The whole thing is just jobs for the boys at the DoT.

Ah that's better .

NJR.

[sky9]

I can understand some of the thought processes, especially when it is rumoured that some of the hijackers were in the FD from the beginning of the flights as "Wannabees" however what I cannot understand is why I am not allowed to travel on the FD on my company's aircraft when I am not on duty - even if I put my uniform on.

I would also like to be reassured that there are proper security checks on all airport employees that have access to the FD. The powers that be "bat" that one into the long grass.