View Poll Results: Should the jump seat be available for wannabe or family familiarisation flights?
Yes, the DfT rule is idiotic
1,740
89.19%
No, there is too much risk involved
182
9.33%
No opinion
29
1.49%
Voters: 1951. This poll is closed
DfT/CAA Jump Seat Restrictions
Alba Gu Brath
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Danny
If that is the reason behind the rule then it is even more farcical. Are they now saying that the pilots cannot leave the flight deck for a pee break?!?! It just adds strength to the views here that a supplementary person (friend/relative/colleague) on the jump-seat would help, not hinder, such a situation.
If that is the reason behind the rule then it is even more farcical. Are they now saying that the pilots cannot leave the flight deck for a pee break?!?! It just adds strength to the views here that a supplementary person (friend/relative/colleague) on the jump-seat would help, not hinder, such a situation.
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Was just reading all these replys and thought I would add a couple of points.
1. I was lucky to have a jump seat ride with a captain friend of mine in a 737-300. If the cockpit door was rammed at this point the jump seat and pax would be a very big barrier for the intruder(S) and cause a delay at least, in the mean time the Capt or the F/O could get the axe out and do the business.
2. About 8 years ago I was on a flight from London-japan. Asked if could go up to the cockpit "no problem was the reply" had a good chat with the crew, could not see much as it was night so asked if I could be there for the landing, mmm I will have to ask the skipper! I thought that was it, 10mins before landing a hostie took me to the flight deck for the landing at osaka in a 747-400 wow what a buzz. I will remember it forever.
1. I was lucky to have a jump seat ride with a captain friend of mine in a 737-300. If the cockpit door was rammed at this point the jump seat and pax would be a very big barrier for the intruder(S) and cause a delay at least, in the mean time the Capt or the F/O could get the axe out and do the business.
2. About 8 years ago I was on a flight from London-japan. Asked if could go up to the cockpit "no problem was the reply" had a good chat with the crew, could not see much as it was night so asked if I could be there for the landing, mmm I will have to ask the skipper! I thought that was it, 10mins before landing a hostie took me to the flight deck for the landing at osaka in a 747-400 wow what a buzz. I will remember it forever.
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What are your views as aircrew on the latest restrictions which forbid the jump seat being used by anyone except CAA Ops Inspectors, supernumerary crew or flight crew travelling in uniform on official company business?
I work for a large express freight company and have frequently been a jumpseat passenger. As well as being enjoyable (even if darned uncomfortable.... ), it gave me a much better understanding of a critical part of our business. Flight ops are the biggest cost line on the balance sheet, and management need to experience what goes on if they are to understand it - in my view.
More importantly, jump seats are how engineers and off-duty flight crew get moved around in an airline which doesn't have any passenger seats. Perhaps we should use air taxis instead..... although as some of them only have flimsy curtains where the flight deck door should be, their demise on safety grounds can't be far off.
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The world's gone mad!
This is a great exaple of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The fact that American airlines have locked their flight deck doors for years did not prevent the shocking events of 9.11 and draconian measures such as this will not prevent it happening again.
Whilst every step must be taken to make it as difficult as possible for terrorists to strike, an unarmed civil aircraft is an easy target and no amount of regulations, locked doors or vetting will stop that. A madman with a machete held to a hostie's neck can be quite convincing...
As a PPLer I've jumpseated many times and I'm enormously grateful to the crews of KLM, BA, Bmed, Emirates and Maersk for the opportunity to get the best seat in the house. I totally agree with Danny that this is sad news for wannabes everywhere.
Even the nutter on the BA 747 over Africa waited until the FO went to the loo before he struck, again unless they install a bog in every aircraft FD in the world then all this regulation is for nothing.
The horse has bolted, next time the Al Kaeda will use something else to make a bang, and nutters will always be nutters.
The answer lies in more 'profiling' of potentially dangerous pax in the El Al vein, more security on the ground and sky marshalls seem to have to have done the job for the Israelis more than once methinks.
This is a great exaple of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The fact that American airlines have locked their flight deck doors for years did not prevent the shocking events of 9.11 and draconian measures such as this will not prevent it happening again.
Whilst every step must be taken to make it as difficult as possible for terrorists to strike, an unarmed civil aircraft is an easy target and no amount of regulations, locked doors or vetting will stop that. A madman with a machete held to a hostie's neck can be quite convincing...
As a PPLer I've jumpseated many times and I'm enormously grateful to the crews of KLM, BA, Bmed, Emirates and Maersk for the opportunity to get the best seat in the house. I totally agree with Danny that this is sad news for wannabes everywhere.
Even the nutter on the BA 747 over Africa waited until the FO went to the loo before he struck, again unless they install a bog in every aircraft FD in the world then all this regulation is for nothing.
The horse has bolted, next time the Al Kaeda will use something else to make a bang, and nutters will always be nutters.
The answer lies in more 'profiling' of potentially dangerous pax in the El Al vein, more security on the ground and sky marshalls seem to have to have done the job for the Israelis more than once methinks.
Last edited by reverserunlocked; 19th Dec 2002 at 16:13.
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I'm with several others on this one - DETR / CAA can take a running jump 'cos there's no way there coming on any of my j/seats.
Is this ruling now in force ?
Regardless, I would follow SOP's for fear of being reported by any member of c/c (has happened !) , but I would view same company employed commuters with an ID as still valid for the j/s - they are on official company business in order to get to work, or elsewhere.
Requesting use of the j/s of course is always looked on more favourably if you are in uniform.
Usual criteria : Staff with an ID ( preferably aged between 20-35yrs and female ) , Flight Crew, Despatchers , Cabin crew.
Management, CAA, etc are an instant refusal.
Happy Christmas
Is this ruling now in force ?
Regardless, I would follow SOP's for fear of being reported by any member of c/c (has happened !) , but I would view same company employed commuters with an ID as still valid for the j/s - they are on official company business in order to get to work, or elsewhere.
Requesting use of the j/s of course is always looked on more favourably if you are in uniform.
Usual criteria : Staff with an ID ( preferably aged between 20-35yrs and female ) , Flight Crew, Despatchers , Cabin crew.
Management, CAA, etc are an instant refusal.
Happy Christmas
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despegue
Somewhere your attitude to will hurt someone. For my sake I hope I'm not one of your passengers and for your sake I hope you don't end up without a job - then the family you love, would get hurt!
If you think that we live in the same world as when you started flying, think again.
Somewhere your attitude to will hurt someone. For my sake I hope I'm not one of your passengers and for your sake I hope you don't end up without a job - then the family you love, would get hurt!
If you think that we live in the same world as when you started flying, think again.
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Rememer that we pay their wages, and we can vote them in OR OUT !
Should I win a double rollover on the lottery, I could go out and purchase a sodding great ( though probably second-hand ) jet airliner, I could then get type-rated on it, and subsequently do pretty much anything I damn well choose to with it - it being privately owned, and non-PublicTransport, etc....
Accordingly, much like any light-aircraft, I could invite anybody I choose onto the flight deck of this aeronautical beast, and there's sod all that the ( so called ) authorities can do about it.
However, assuming that having won the lottery I continue to work as an airline pilot, when I go to work ( maybe on the same aircraft type as I personally own ), I can no longer invite said same relations and mates into the flight deck because they're now a security risk - WHAT the ..... ?!
Oh yes, this really has been well thought through by the 'authorities' - NOT !
Accordingly, much like any light-aircraft, I could invite anybody I choose onto the flight deck of this aeronautical beast, and there's sod all that the ( so called ) authorities can do about it.
However, assuming that having won the lottery I continue to work as an airline pilot, when I go to work ( maybe on the same aircraft type as I personally own ), I can no longer invite said same relations and mates into the flight deck because they're now a security risk - WHAT the ..... ?!
Oh yes, this really has been well thought through by the 'authorities' - NOT !
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Reading this thread it is apparent that this issue is as important to everyone else as it is me. I can't, for example, take my grandad on the JS for his 80th birthday next year. Incidentally, he helped pay for my CPL. But the big question for me here is exactly what can be done?
When this rule was initially brought in there was a vague "BALPA are in discussions with the Govt" statement which told us nothing and promised less. Given the results of this poll and the depth of feeling in these postsis it not now time to give our Union a gentle nudge?
Is anyone from BALPA reading this website?
If not why not?
Can this thread (and the last one on this subject) be brought to the attention of someone who has the abiltity to put some pressure on the DETR/CAA? Danny?
If BALPA are powerless over this what is the point in them?
When this rule was initially brought in there was a vague "BALPA are in discussions with the Govt" statement which told us nothing and promised less. Given the results of this poll and the depth of feeling in these postsis it not now time to give our Union a gentle nudge?
Is anyone from BALPA reading this website?
If not why not?
Can this thread (and the last one on this subject) be brought to the attention of someone who has the abiltity to put some pressure on the DETR/CAA? Danny?
If BALPA are powerless over this what is the point in them?
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I must confess to not having read all the posts on this thread so apologies if I repeat previous points.
The current rules re jumpseats are the first instance I know of where something overrules SAFETY in aviation, although not unsafe, if you have a qualified pilot on board who is inthe cabin rather than on the FD is less safe, as in the event of an emergency he could at least pull out books/call ops/ call engineering and help out in numerous other ways. I think if someone carried a qualified pilot on the JS I think they would probably have a VERY good defence if prosecuted, that it was in the interest of safety.
Whilst I can see some sense in the locked flightdeck door (though I don't really agree with even that), I think the current rules have gone TOTALLY over the top. 
n.b. I did ask BALPA for their view of this shortly after the ruling came in - I am still waiting for a reply!
The current rules re jumpseats are the first instance I know of where something overrules SAFETY in aviation, although not unsafe, if you have a qualified pilot on board who is inthe cabin rather than on the FD is less safe, as in the event of an emergency he could at least pull out books/call ops/ call engineering and help out in numerous other ways. I think if someone carried a qualified pilot on the JS I think they would probably have a VERY good defence if prosecuted, that it was in the interest of safety.
Whilst I can see some sense in the locked flightdeck door (though I don't really agree with even that), I think the current rules have gone TOTALLY over the top.
n.b. I did ask BALPA for their view of this shortly after the ruling came in - I am still waiting for a reply!
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I can see the logic of closing the cockpit. See my post on the guns in the cockpit thread.
However, I will be eternally grateful to the BA crew who gave my wife the jump seat on the approach and landing on our honeymoon into SFX on 9/10 Jan 99. She remains scared of flying but was deeply impressed by the calm and professional environment, and by the way theaircraft threaded through lots of others in the busy multi-airport environment. It did more to reduce her fear of flying than anything I could say or do, and has bought BA a lifetime customer (2 actually).
I hope there is some way that a blanket rule, which has obvious security advantages, can be bypassed in obviously safe circumstances.
Sven
However, I will be eternally grateful to the BA crew who gave my wife the jump seat on the approach and landing on our honeymoon into SFX on 9/10 Jan 99. She remains scared of flying but was deeply impressed by the calm and professional environment, and by the way theaircraft threaded through lots of others in the busy multi-airport environment. It did more to reduce her fear of flying than anything I could say or do, and has bought BA a lifetime customer (2 actually).
I hope there is some way that a blanket rule, which has obvious security advantages, can be bypassed in obviously safe circumstances.
Sven
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Let us In !
As a PPL, Modular ATPL, Sim Engineer 737/A320 etc I would be over the moon to experience a jump seat ride. I 'fly' simulators every week, but its not like the real thing.. even if they are ZFT.
Security gone mad ? I can't go on your flightdeck but hey you can't go on my simulator unless you have airline ID and a booking, security check etc.. joy rides? no chance..
Any of you good Astraeus guys flying LGW - INN this Saturday 21st Dec ? I'll be in the back, wishing I was at the front.. especially from Rattenburg onwards
Security gone mad ? I can't go on your flightdeck but hey you can't go on my simulator unless you have airline ID and a booking, security check etc.. joy rides? no chance..
Any of you good Astraeus guys flying LGW - INN this Saturday 21st Dec ? I'll be in the back, wishing I was at the front.. especially from Rattenburg onwards
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Who can sit in the jump seat
I was a kid once......I think we all were.
Taking the yearly flight to Manchester from Toronto and return was what got me into aviation. Seeing those fly-boys with feet on the dash, ties off, shades on chasing the setting sun to the west gave an impression that these guys and gal's knew what they were doing. Fl 350 in an L-1011 with a call-sign like "Speedbird"...
Geez....
If it had not been for the Skippers OK to have the door opened to let this red head of 10 years old in the door, maybe I wouldn't have the respect for the job of a Line Pilot as I do. I wanted to be one and didn't make the grade.
From what I gather on this thread, this regulation is completly stupid and without merit. For Captains and F/O's to not be allowed the privalige......thats what it is right? The privalige to show their younger daughter or son the right of passage to a job that carries rank, respect, and disciplin!
Don't blame the people that made this regulation about who can and cannot occupy the jump seat.....They are just trying to make aviation as safe as possible and are trying to concieve of EVERY possible scenerio possible.
Blame the faceless cowards that committed an unthinkable act on September 11 2001.........
Just my thoughts and opinion.
Taking the yearly flight to Manchester from Toronto and return was what got me into aviation. Seeing those fly-boys with feet on the dash, ties off, shades on chasing the setting sun to the west gave an impression that these guys and gal's knew what they were doing. Fl 350 in an L-1011 with a call-sign like "Speedbird"...
Geez....
If it had not been for the Skippers OK to have the door opened to let this red head of 10 years old in the door, maybe I wouldn't have the respect for the job of a Line Pilot as I do. I wanted to be one and didn't make the grade.
From what I gather on this thread, this regulation is completly stupid and without merit. For Captains and F/O's to not be allowed the privalige......thats what it is right? The privalige to show their younger daughter or son the right of passage to a job that carries rank, respect, and disciplin!
Don't blame the people that made this regulation about who can and cannot occupy the jump seat.....They are just trying to make aviation as safe as possible and are trying to concieve of EVERY possible scenerio possible.
Blame the faceless cowards that committed an unthinkable act on September 11 2001.........
Just my thoughts and opinion.
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Apollo
Sorry but I believe you are wrong not to blame the regulators, yes the rules are a reaction to the unspeakable acts of Sept 11, but by bringing in rules that are purely to be seen to be doing something and not consulting and thinking things through properly the regulators are doing EXACTLY what the terrorists want. As has been pointed out by many on this thread, in most pilots opinions the current JS rules do NOT enhance safety, indeed in many peoples opinion these rules are counter productive on this point.
Sorry but I believe you are wrong not to blame the regulators, yes the rules are a reaction to the unspeakable acts of Sept 11, but by bringing in rules that are purely to be seen to be doing something and not consulting and thinking things through properly the regulators are doing EXACTLY what the terrorists want. As has been pointed out by many on this thread, in most pilots opinions the current JS rules do NOT enhance safety, indeed in many peoples opinion these rules are counter productive on this point.
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back on topic please !
Guys lets stick to the topic we will never agane be able to let any pax onto the jumpseat but to my mind this is not about that.
This new set of regulations is so restrictive as to in some cases make the flight deck LESS secure and has an effect on the safety of the aircraft , this has been detailed on posts above.
The thing that is now giving me grave concern is that these regulations are now driving a wedge between the aircraft crews and the DETR/CAA security inspectors who are just guys like us trying to do a job but have been given a set of rules almost as stupid as the dangerous dogs act to enforce.
I like a lot of you am reluctant to help them after all if I cant trust my wife why sould I trust some guy that I have never seen before just because he has a bit of plastic that says his from the DETR/CAA.
These inspectors must be running into a brick wall each time they go to do an aircraft inspection and this is because of the stupidity of the new rules.
Security requires co-operation of all the people on the "front line" and this is imposable to have if there is no respect for the rules and the people whos job it is to uphold them.
In short my message to the DETR/CAA is give us a workable set of regulations based on common sence and sound thinking and you will have the co-operation of every crewmember untill then it is you who are the real obsticals to better security because of your unwillingness to live in the real world by producing a set of rules that are intended to cover your a*** but do nothing to help secure the aircraft . untill then how can you expect any respect or co-operation from those in the industry who have to deal with the sharp end of the terrorist threat each day of there working lives ?.
This new set of regulations is so restrictive as to in some cases make the flight deck LESS secure and has an effect on the safety of the aircraft , this has been detailed on posts above.
The thing that is now giving me grave concern is that these regulations are now driving a wedge between the aircraft crews and the DETR/CAA security inspectors who are just guys like us trying to do a job but have been given a set of rules almost as stupid as the dangerous dogs act to enforce.
I like a lot of you am reluctant to help them after all if I cant trust my wife why sould I trust some guy that I have never seen before just because he has a bit of plastic that says his from the DETR/CAA.
These inspectors must be running into a brick wall each time they go to do an aircraft inspection and this is because of the stupidity of the new rules.
Security requires co-operation of all the people on the "front line" and this is imposable to have if there is no respect for the rules and the people whos job it is to uphold them.
In short my message to the DETR/CAA is give us a workable set of regulations based on common sence and sound thinking and you will have the co-operation of every crewmember untill then it is you who are the real obsticals to better security because of your unwillingness to live in the real world by producing a set of rules that are intended to cover your a*** but do nothing to help secure the aircraft . untill then how can you expect any respect or co-operation from those in the industry who have to deal with the sharp end of the terrorist threat each day of there working lives ?.
Last edited by A and C; 20th Dec 2002 at 08:45.
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What all these rules ignore is that there was already a locked flight-deck door policy in effect in the USA before September 11th.
They are, without consultation or logic, insisting upon a rule that didn't prevent the tragedy.
They are, without consultation or logic, insisting upon a rule that didn't prevent the tragedy.
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Flying spanner
How might this affect the carriage of flying spanners ?, can they be classed as supernumery ?. At one time (following a CAA ruling )all our company engineers engaged on flying duties had to do all appropriate safety exams ,visited the firemen & pool etc. The CAA then 'waivered' & the engs are now carried as pax.
The 'crunch' for us is the fact that being a cargo airline on some of the types we operate we only have seats on the flt. deck !.
Will we have to go back to all engs doing appropriate drills to be classified as supernumery ?. There are destinations we service which would be a 'trial' if the aircraft was minus the GE.
The 'crunch' for us is the fact that being a cargo airline on some of the types we operate we only have seats on the flt. deck !.
Will we have to go back to all engs doing appropriate drills to be classified as supernumery ?. There are destinations we service which would be a 'trial' if the aircraft was minus the GE.
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Question.............. how many aircraft have been overtpowered by guests on the jump-seat as opposed to people forcing entry or terrorising pax ?? Hmmmmmmmmm.!!
Still, I'm convinced I could trust my father on the jumpseat. He's had plenty of opportunities to kill me over the past thirty years and not exercised them, so he's probably a safe bet.
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Starbuck
Having read your attack on despegue, I hope your never a PAX on any plane ever I fly either, or the other 93% who think this rule idiotic. This is just another Labour 'nanny state' reaction.
It would be easy (ish) to admit others for J/seat rides if pre- arranged with the airline in the case of all persons known to the crew who's conduct can be garranteed.
further more an approved system could be put in place to admit PAX if they apply well in advance with ID, GP's signiture and report their intentions to the anti terrorist branch etc....
Thus civil rights remain uneffected.
It would be easy (ish) to admit others for J/seat rides if pre- arranged with the airline in the case of all persons known to the crew who's conduct can be garranteed.
further more an approved system could be put in place to admit PAX if they apply well in advance with ID, GP's signiture and report their intentions to the anti terrorist branch etc....
Thus civil rights remain uneffected.
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Hi everybody
As a wannabe, I just wanted to say that what Danny said about getting people interested important. I remember once sitting on a jump seat coming into Amsterdam, is was the most fantastic experience and the one which really started me of
! I personaly think that it would be very sad if in the future this would not be possible! I do belive that my flying carrer would have gone quite a different way, or were non exsistend if some of you guys had not given me the right tips!!
Regard Micky
As a wannabe, I just wanted to say that what Danny said about getting people interested important. I remember once sitting on a jump seat coming into Amsterdam, is was the most fantastic experience and the one which really started me of
! I personaly think that it would be very sad if in the future this would not be possible! I do belive that my flying carrer would have gone quite a different way, or were non exsistend if some of you guys had not given me the right tips!!Regard Micky
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I find it astonishing that this kind of micro-management goes on when it isn't compulsory to have a radio in an aircraft. Not saying it should be, just think about the disparity.
