737 diverted to CWL
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The police were not called to Santiago Airport - they were already there and if you care to read todays Scottish papers you will see that the club are being urged to protest against the masked Spanish police who beat the hell out of one of the Director's of Celtic's 14 year old son.
If you can't be open minded about this fine. Air companies who are quite happy to take a great deal of money from football supporters travelling to support their clubs in Europe, should
reinvest some of their profits in training their staff in how to tell the difference between good natured rumbustuousnous and a potential riot situation. In the cases of the crimes of smoking and sneaking a swig from a can, a quiet word would have been imeasurably more effective.
As far as any court case is concerned I would be surprised if those in court don't call over 100+ witnesses in support of themselves. In fact I'd go so far as to say I'll be surprised if there is a conviction in this case - unlike many who post here who seem to have made their judgements of guilt already.
If you can't be open minded about this fine. Air companies who are quite happy to take a great deal of money from football supporters travelling to support their clubs in Europe, should
reinvest some of their profits in training their staff in how to tell the difference between good natured rumbustuousnous and a potential riot situation. In the cases of the crimes of smoking and sneaking a swig from a can, a quiet word would have been imeasurably more effective.
As far as any court case is concerned I would be surprised if those in court don't call over 100+ witnesses in support of themselves. In fact I'd go so far as to say I'll be surprised if there is a conviction in this case - unlike many who post here who seem to have made their judgements of guilt already.
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MOL,
I am interested in what your credentials are , although of course it makes no difference in posting comments here. Are you in the business ?
As I have said before as an ATCO we much prefer to overcall an incident than undercall it. It is far better to have too many emergency services on standby than not to have enough.
Mayday calls are classified as a distress message ie:
A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger.
a Pan call is classified as an urgency message ie:
A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or of some person on board which does not require immediate assistance.
In the view of the crew on board the aircraft required immediate assistance thus by definition they made the correct call.
I am interested in what your credentials are , although of course it makes no difference in posting comments here. Are you in the business ?
As I have said before as an ATCO we much prefer to overcall an incident than undercall it. It is far better to have too many emergency services on standby than not to have enough.
Mayday calls are classified as a distress message ie:
A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger.
a Pan call is classified as an urgency message ie:
A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or of some person on board which does not require immediate assistance.
In the view of the crew on board the aircraft required immediate assistance thus by definition they made the correct call.
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MOL,
So when does a quiet word not become a viable option then ?
Do crews just ignore blatent disregarding of the safety announcements because it was a laugh to hear them sing YMCA ?
But what about Mrs Bloggs who is a bit deaf and couldn't hear a thing due to the row. A problem arises necessitating an evec and Mrs Bloggs hasn't a clue what to do - neither has anyone else for that matter !
Or how about a smile and a calming 'please return to your seat sir' to Mohammad Atta ?
As an earlier post quite clearly defined - the ANO is the law ! Period ! Endex !
- unless of course you think that disobeying the law good-naturedly, ie assaulting the crew or smoking on-board or using a mobile really were an issue ?!
Now IF - and it's a big 'IF' by all accounts - a jury clears all involved of any wrong-doing (assuming it ever gets that far ) then OK. But as stated before, at the time, the Capt obviously believed there was a genuine problem and acted accordingly ! He cannot be blamed for that !!!
Remember who caused the problem in the first place ! Certainly wasn't the crew. They weren't assaulting each other or smoking and drinking on-board !
So the pax only have themselves to blame ! ( and the majority of innocents only have the guilty few to blame ! )
So when does a quiet word not become a viable option then ?
Do crews just ignore blatent disregarding of the safety announcements because it was a laugh to hear them sing YMCA ?
But what about Mrs Bloggs who is a bit deaf and couldn't hear a thing due to the row. A problem arises necessitating an evec and Mrs Bloggs hasn't a clue what to do - neither has anyone else for that matter !
Or how about a smile and a calming 'please return to your seat sir' to Mohammad Atta ?
As an earlier post quite clearly defined - the ANO is the law ! Period ! Endex !
- unless of course you think that disobeying the law good-naturedly, ie assaulting the crew or smoking on-board or using a mobile really were an issue ?!
Now IF - and it's a big 'IF' by all accounts - a jury clears all involved of any wrong-doing (assuming it ever gets that far ) then OK. But as stated before, at the time, the Capt obviously believed there was a genuine problem and acted accordingly ! He cannot be blamed for that !!!
Remember who caused the problem in the first place ! Certainly wasn't the crew. They weren't assaulting each other or smoking and drinking on-board !
So the pax only have themselves to blame ! ( and the majority of innocents only have the guilty few to blame ! )
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This travel agent bloke has just said on Sky that if the Captain had thought there was a serious problem he should have left the cockpit to sort it out!!!!!!!!!
Where has this guy been for the last 15 months!! Not selling tickets on flights I'll bet!
I have tried to read through much of this thread, but it's a challenge. There is a lot of reference to 'an emergency descent'.
Is this an acknowledged fact or just speculation? Was this an emergency landing or, as I believe, a precautionary landing to prevent a bad situation getting worse?
Is it really any surprise that the other football ''supporters'' are now saying it was an over-reaction by the crew? They are hardly likely to be over-joyed are they?
Whatever the specific circumstances, the Captain made absolutely the right decsion to get the aircraft, crew and pax on the ground in a safe and expeditious manner.
FL350 is no place for any sort of disagreement.
Leave it now to others to sort out.
MOL
Were you on board? You know so much about it, surely you haven't got all that from the Scottish Newspapers. I bet the Spanish and Welsh newspapers have other views.
Which should we believe?
Where has this guy been for the last 15 months!! Not selling tickets on flights I'll bet!
I have tried to read through much of this thread, but it's a challenge. There is a lot of reference to 'an emergency descent'.
Is this an acknowledged fact or just speculation? Was this an emergency landing or, as I believe, a precautionary landing to prevent a bad situation getting worse?
Is it really any surprise that the other football ''supporters'' are now saying it was an over-reaction by the crew? They are hardly likely to be over-joyed are they?
Whatever the specific circumstances, the Captain made absolutely the right decsion to get the aircraft, crew and pax on the ground in a safe and expeditious manner.
FL350 is no place for any sort of disagreement.
Leave it now to others to sort out.
MOL
Were you on board? You know so much about it, surely you haven't got all that from the Scottish Newspapers. I bet the Spanish and Welsh newspapers have other views.
Which should we believe?
On the point on whether a mayday call was correct or not.
Having one incident which required a P/A to all persons on board would have heightened his alertness to a potential situation, but then to hear of a fracas at the rear of his aircraft which involved a number of pax becoming unruly and abusive, also with a cabin crew member being reportedly injured or incapacitated would have made the flight unsafe (IMHO). The thought of several pax possibly intoxicated and very potentially abusive coming forward to protest their fellow supporters innocence may well have swayed his decision to discontinue the cruise and commence a descent to the nearest alternative airfield. To initiate an immediate safe and controlled rapid descent, a mayday is the best and only appropriate call to make as this would serve to alert ATC to a potential problem, allowing them to clear potential traffic conflicts and alert SAR if required. A pan call may not have belied the seriousness of the incident so the captain made the best call he thought was appropriate at the time. his company and authorities are behind him, so am I.
Having one incident which required a P/A to all persons on board would have heightened his alertness to a potential situation, but then to hear of a fracas at the rear of his aircraft which involved a number of pax becoming unruly and abusive, also with a cabin crew member being reportedly injured or incapacitated would have made the flight unsafe (IMHO). The thought of several pax possibly intoxicated and very potentially abusive coming forward to protest their fellow supporters innocence may well have swayed his decision to discontinue the cruise and commence a descent to the nearest alternative airfield. To initiate an immediate safe and controlled rapid descent, a mayday is the best and only appropriate call to make as this would serve to alert ATC to a potential problem, allowing them to clear potential traffic conflicts and alert SAR if required. A pan call may not have belied the seriousness of the incident so the captain made the best call he thought was appropriate at the time. his company and authorities are behind him, so am I.
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MOL,
I don´t think I´m alone in thinking that you are talking out of your rear end. You seemed to have backed yourself into a corner which is clearly the wrong corner. Implementation of emergency procedures are not based on Sky News reports, Celtic supporters views or an irate travel agent view.
Having the read actual accounts from Astraeus it is clear the senior cabin crew member obviously felt a situation had developed or was developing that was getting out of hand. I don´t think the captain had any choice in the matter, he had to get that aircraft on the ground as soon as possible.
In short MOL, give up. You are recycling rubbish written by journalists who as usual know absolutely nothing about aviation.
I don´t think I´m alone in thinking that you are talking out of your rear end. You seemed to have backed yourself into a corner which is clearly the wrong corner. Implementation of emergency procedures are not based on Sky News reports, Celtic supporters views or an irate travel agent view.
Having the read actual accounts from Astraeus it is clear the senior cabin crew member obviously felt a situation had developed or was developing that was getting out of hand. I don´t think the captain had any choice in the matter, he had to get that aircraft on the ground as soon as possible.
In short MOL, give up. You are recycling rubbish written by journalists who as usual know absolutely nothing about aviation.
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It is a fire hazard if lighted butts are placed in the paper bin - that is the reason for the total ban on smoking. I made the point because too many people react without knowing what the hazard actually is (you obviously included). In fact practiced illicit smokers know to cover the smoke alarm and flush their butts down the basin.
Actually just had a thought, is it 'the law' on charters ?
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It would be nice if everything were black or white, clear-cut or not, but that's rarely the case.
There don't seem to be all that many facts in dispute: some passengers were carrying on during the safety demo, one or more was smoking in the loo, some had brought and been drinking booze on the flight, and there was inappropriate physical contact between one or more passengers and a FA. At this time, it isn't public knowledge whether that contact was closer to a finger in the ribs, a left hook to the jaw, or a slap on the bottom.
The bottom line is whether there was reasonable cause for the flight crew, based on the information available to them, to believe that a diversion and Mayday call were warranted.
I'd want to have a great deal more information before making an evaluation. The passengers involved, especially those detained, have a vested interest in convincing people that no reasonable cause existed. The flight crew and cabin crew have a vested interest in convincing people that reasonable cause to divert did, indeed, exist.
I'd have the most confidence in those who would first hear and evaluate both sides before leaping to a judgement and conclusion.
There don't seem to be all that many facts in dispute: some passengers were carrying on during the safety demo, one or more was smoking in the loo, some had brought and been drinking booze on the flight, and there was inappropriate physical contact between one or more passengers and a FA. At this time, it isn't public knowledge whether that contact was closer to a finger in the ribs, a left hook to the jaw, or a slap on the bottom.
The bottom line is whether there was reasonable cause for the flight crew, based on the information available to them, to believe that a diversion and Mayday call were warranted.
I'd want to have a great deal more information before making an evaluation. The passengers involved, especially those detained, have a vested interest in convincing people that no reasonable cause existed. The flight crew and cabin crew have a vested interest in convincing people that reasonable cause to divert did, indeed, exist.
I'd have the most confidence in those who would first hear and evaluate both sides before leaping to a judgement and conclusion.
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I find it quite amazing that anybody can try to justify and defend the manhandling of cabin crew (minimal or not).
When a flight is boarded and indeed at all other times throughout the flight, the cabin crew are there for YOUR safety and to act at all times in YOUR interests. They are paid and trained to do this but at the end of the day they are there because they have a love of the job and people in particular.
At NO TIME should they ever be put in a position whereby they are the slightest bit concerned for their own, the aircraft and the passengers' safety. Whether it be a 'minor' altercation or a major incident, what gives ANYBODY the right to verbally abuse, manhandle or even simply raise their voice to a cabin crew attendent.
The situation here may, in some eyes, have been an over-reaction but I'm sorry to say that this is entirely brought on by the behaviour of a few people who clearly have no regard for common decency, manners and respect, let alone the more serious matter of what is the law.
For christ sake, this was an aeroplane not a pub on a Saturday night. I would have thought that after September 11th, the one lesson everyone would have learned was that aeroplanes are dangerous things to be on when an incident occurs on board.
The crew are just normal human beings earning a living and I for one feel that they were FULLY JUSTIFIED if, as is clearly evident, they felt that the aircraft and other passengers safety and well being was at risk.
If there had been an emergency on board and the flight had to be evacuated, then who are the ones there saving everyone else's necks.
And as for Harry Hynds and his nonesense spouted out on Sky news today. If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable !
When a flight is boarded and indeed at all other times throughout the flight, the cabin crew are there for YOUR safety and to act at all times in YOUR interests. They are paid and trained to do this but at the end of the day they are there because they have a love of the job and people in particular.
At NO TIME should they ever be put in a position whereby they are the slightest bit concerned for their own, the aircraft and the passengers' safety. Whether it be a 'minor' altercation or a major incident, what gives ANYBODY the right to verbally abuse, manhandle or even simply raise their voice to a cabin crew attendent.
The situation here may, in some eyes, have been an over-reaction but I'm sorry to say that this is entirely brought on by the behaviour of a few people who clearly have no regard for common decency, manners and respect, let alone the more serious matter of what is the law.
For christ sake, this was an aeroplane not a pub on a Saturday night. I would have thought that after September 11th, the one lesson everyone would have learned was that aeroplanes are dangerous things to be on when an incident occurs on board.
The crew are just normal human beings earning a living and I for one feel that they were FULLY JUSTIFIED if, as is clearly evident, they felt that the aircraft and other passengers safety and well being was at risk.
If there had been an emergency on board and the flight had to be evacuated, then who are the ones there saving everyone else's necks.
And as for Harry Hynds and his nonesense spouted out on Sky news today. If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable !
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Its interesting that the debate is a chance for Flight Deck & Trolly Dollies to vent their self opinionated ideas that somehow they are a breed of their own and have some mental superiority over other humans. Their attitude stinks from the moment you check in, to the destination exit. The sooner they recognise that its no big deal to qualify to drive an aircraft or be a waitress, and they should recognise that the cargo that pays there wages should be treated with some respect and might even have superior intellect.
No doubt if you had a poll for:
"Should all passengers be shackled to their seats, gagged and have bags over their heads" it would be 99% in favour
No doubt if you had a poll for:
"Should all passengers be shackled to their seats, gagged and have bags over their heads" it would be 99% in favour
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I don't understand why the captain carrying out a diversion and landing is such a big deal to so many people! It's not like he ditched the aircraft. As a passenger, if I'm on an aircraft and the captain states he's diverting to an alternate, frankly I don't need a reason. The fact that he/she wants to is good enough for me.
You just can't win can you. Captain receives information, makes a decision and actions it safely. Some pax have to take a bus to the original destination. In the name of flight safety, how can you possibly fault this outcome???
You just can't win can you. Captain receives information, makes a decision and actions it safely. Some pax have to take a bus to the original destination. In the name of flight safety, how can you possibly fault this outcome???
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A news bulletin on BBC Radio 5 (at 19:30L) has just announced that the 6 people who were detained have been "released without charge".
I can't help wondering how some of the more "lurid" accounts of what took place during the flight hold up in the light of this.
I can't help wondering how some of the more "lurid" accounts of what took place during the flight hold up in the light of this.
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The reports say they were released on Bail.
That means charges are still pending...
Interesting to read This report about an individual causing a diversion....and This report about a couple of mindless idiots.
Or how about this Emergency Diversion or this example of Interference with a cabin Crew member
Looks like nothing new here, then. A couple of mindless idiots causing a diversion and (hopefully) paying the price.
That means charges are still pending...
Interesting to read This report about an individual causing a diversion....and This report about a couple of mindless idiots.
Or how about this Emergency Diversion or this example of Interference with a cabin Crew member
Looks like nothing new here, then. A couple of mindless idiots causing a diversion and (hopefully) paying the price.
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The Indefensible
Well no one should be suprised that some people on this thread are trying to support the indefensible. It is a well known trait of many followers of the 'beautiful' game. One only needs to see Mr Venebles failing to condemn absolutely the actions of Lee Bowyer against Malaga to realise that it is football and those involved who often see themselves as a cut above everyone else, i.e. exempt for the rules applying to the normal populace, not flight deck or cabin crew.
Having had my rant about football and some of its supporters I would just like to come out in support of the crew and whatever action they took. Those of us who were not working the flight should not attempt to second guess the actions of those who were.
I believe that if the Captain had simply diverted and not declared Mayday there would be little debate on these pages. Who can say that the Mayday was overkill since the end result was the safe arrival at their final destination of everyone on board!
One last thing I think that Astraeus have been admirable in their support of the crew on board this flight. Wonder if all companies would have been so supportive in the glare of the inevitable media frenzy!
Having had my rant about football and some of its supporters I would just like to come out in support of the crew and whatever action they took. Those of us who were not working the flight should not attempt to second guess the actions of those who were.
I believe that if the Captain had simply diverted and not declared Mayday there would be little debate on these pages. Who can say that the Mayday was overkill since the end result was the safe arrival at their final destination of everyone on board!
One last thing I think that Astraeus have been admirable in their support of the crew on board this flight. Wonder if all companies would have been so supportive in the glare of the inevitable media frenzy!
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5 AIR Alert Substitute 19:03GMT 14DEC02
(reopens)
The remaining two Celtic fans arrested after an alleged disturbance on a 737 jet were on their way back to Glasgow, police said tonight.
But further arrests could still be made among the 140 fans bussed back to Scotland last night, south Wales police warned.
Two men were freed on police bail this evening following the release of four others earlier in the afternoon.
All six will have to return to south Wales to report back to police.
Supt Colin Jones, speaking from Barry police station, said detectives continued to treat the incident as “extremely serious”.
He also revealed that a stewardess at the centre of alleged assault allegations was treated by paramedics for a badly bruised arm after the plane touched down.
Supt Jones said tonight: “Nothing has come to my attention to scale down this incident, indeed the opposite is true.
“The word riot is emotive and was certainly not used by me.
“But there was a disturbance on the plane of a serious enough nature to warrant an experienced pilot to put out a May Day call.
“A stewardess was treated for bruising on one of her arms by paramedics at Cardiff International Airport and the flight crew has since returned to Gatwick Airport suffering from shock.
“We continue to treat this incident as serious and we will be making further inquiries in the Glasgow area as well as re-interviewing the cabin crew.
“There is the potential for further arrests.”
mfl
(reopens)
The remaining two Celtic fans arrested after an alleged disturbance on a 737 jet were on their way back to Glasgow, police said tonight.
But further arrests could still be made among the 140 fans bussed back to Scotland last night, south Wales police warned.
Two men were freed on police bail this evening following the release of four others earlier in the afternoon.
All six will have to return to south Wales to report back to police.
Supt Colin Jones, speaking from Barry police station, said detectives continued to treat the incident as “extremely serious”.
He also revealed that a stewardess at the centre of alleged assault allegations was treated by paramedics for a badly bruised arm after the plane touched down.
Supt Jones said tonight: “Nothing has come to my attention to scale down this incident, indeed the opposite is true.
“The word riot is emotive and was certainly not used by me.
“But there was a disturbance on the plane of a serious enough nature to warrant an experienced pilot to put out a May Day call.
“A stewardess was treated for bruising on one of her arms by paramedics at Cardiff International Airport and the flight crew has since returned to Gatwick Airport suffering from shock.
“We continue to treat this incident as serious and we will be making further inquiries in the Glasgow area as well as re-interviewing the cabin crew.
“There is the potential for further arrests.”
mfl
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I recently witnessed a confrontation between disembarking pax and cabin crew whilst on the airbridge, over remarks made about the attire of one of the pax.
This was escalating until the Capt appeared out of the flight deck and as if by magic the mood changed.
I do think that the four bars command a sense of respect in most people and to be honest defused the situation in this case. (Someone ate humble pie)
I was taught that " Courtesy is an essential quality, and one that will smooth many a path" maybe this sort of attitude should be adopted by more people in order to avoid this sort of situation.
This was escalating until the Capt appeared out of the flight deck and as if by magic the mood changed.
I do think that the four bars command a sense of respect in most people and to be honest defused the situation in this case. (Someone ate humble pie)
I was taught that " Courtesy is an essential quality, and one that will smooth many a path" maybe this sort of attitude should be adopted by more people in order to avoid this sort of situation.
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BELHold..... on the other hand, I've seen a uniformed police officer beaten black and blue by yobs - and there was certainly NO sense of respect displayed in that instance by the yobs towards that officer and / or his office.
I'd similarly be very wary that one might be shown any respect just because you're in a pilots uniform.... indeed I remember a very close shave when a friend was nearly duffed-up in a pub due to certain people thinking that he was actually an off-duty copper ( he was wearing a similar uniform shirt, albeit that he had his epaulets in his breast pocket )...... because these people just do NOT understand respect.
I'd similarly be very wary that one might be shown any respect just because you're in a pilots uniform.... indeed I remember a very close shave when a friend was nearly duffed-up in a pub due to certain people thinking that he was actually an off-duty copper ( he was wearing a similar uniform shirt, albeit that he had his epaulets in his breast pocket )...... because these people just do NOT understand respect.
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One other thing.
Those hard done by individuals who feel let down by the airline's supposed bad handling of the situation, I wonder what your own view would be given the following scenario :-
You own a restaraunt.
I turn up at said venue and have no regard for the rules on non-smoking, I then proceed to drink my own booze which again is against your policy.
When I am challenged by your staff I verbally abuse them and manhandle one of them to the extent that they need medical treatment.
Given those facts, I would expect to be ejected from your restaraunt and face police charges.
The fact this happened on an aeroplane makes this a 1,000 times more serious.
Man alive ! When will people wake up and smell the coffee.
You do as you are told on an aircraft, at all times !!!!
There is NO negotiation on this matter. It's simply NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.
Those hard done by individuals who feel let down by the airline's supposed bad handling of the situation, I wonder what your own view would be given the following scenario :-
You own a restaraunt.
I turn up at said venue and have no regard for the rules on non-smoking, I then proceed to drink my own booze which again is against your policy.
When I am challenged by your staff I verbally abuse them and manhandle one of them to the extent that they need medical treatment.
Given those facts, I would expect to be ejected from your restaraunt and face police charges.
The fact this happened on an aeroplane makes this a 1,000 times more serious.
Man alive ! When will people wake up and smell the coffee.
You do as you are told on an aircraft, at all times !!!!
There is NO negotiation on this matter. It's simply NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.