737 diverted to CWL
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Just read JH's statement.
I'm afraid that general behaviour is declining throughout society and it is now hitting the airlines / airports with increasing frequency. I'm an Operations Manager for a large swaithe of London Undergound (the yellow, pink and purple / burgundy lines) and have witnessed, first hand, the sorts of behaviour which to the casual onlooker are minor disturbances but are in fact serious situations which make the lives of customer facing staff hell. (LU have finally started running an ad campaign about workplace stress following staff assaults).
There seems to be something in the current physche that says someone in a position of authority (and basically there for passenger safety) is a jobsworth and must be challenged. Much of this behaviour is alcohol-fuelled and is not restricted to to the 'usual suspects'. My own brother (a fellow LU Manager) was physically assaulated by the grandson of a rather famous British actress (who's day job is that of a city stockbroker) following a racist verbal assault on a member of his staff whom he was trying to protect. Thankfully the Transport Police tracked him down and he was convicted, £400 damages was awarded to my brother.
My advice to the airline industry would be not to let standards decline...everyday public transport has let that happen such that this sort of behaviour is now the norm. The important thing to remember is that a fracas at FL330 could result in a much bigger tragedy than one on the inner rail platfrom at Euston Square!
Reading some of the earlier comments (no name, no pack drill) I can't believe some of the contributors thoughts given the changed situation post September 11th.
rgds
14 loop...by the cemetery!
I'm afraid that general behaviour is declining throughout society and it is now hitting the airlines / airports with increasing frequency. I'm an Operations Manager for a large swaithe of London Undergound (the yellow, pink and purple / burgundy lines) and have witnessed, first hand, the sorts of behaviour which to the casual onlooker are minor disturbances but are in fact serious situations which make the lives of customer facing staff hell. (LU have finally started running an ad campaign about workplace stress following staff assaults).
There seems to be something in the current physche that says someone in a position of authority (and basically there for passenger safety) is a jobsworth and must be challenged. Much of this behaviour is alcohol-fuelled and is not restricted to to the 'usual suspects'. My own brother (a fellow LU Manager) was physically assaulated by the grandson of a rather famous British actress (who's day job is that of a city stockbroker) following a racist verbal assault on a member of his staff whom he was trying to protect. Thankfully the Transport Police tracked him down and he was convicted, £400 damages was awarded to my brother.
My advice to the airline industry would be not to let standards decline...everyday public transport has let that happen such that this sort of behaviour is now the norm. The important thing to remember is that a fracas at FL330 could result in a much bigger tragedy than one on the inner rail platfrom at Euston Square!
Reading some of the earlier comments (no name, no pack drill) I can't believe some of the contributors thoughts given the changed situation post September 11th.
rgds
14 loop...by the cemetery!
Last edited by 14 loop; 16th Dec 2002 at 06:31.
Having stopped an assault on a woman in a subway car three years ago and given evidence in court the week before last, it was interesting to hear the accused describing the pummelling, albeit mild, that I witnessed as his mannerly remonstration against her shoving by him at the subway turnstile
I do not in any way minimise the distress felt by this cabin crew, but as this case will eventually show in court, different people located in close quarters can render completely different accounts of the same incident.
It will be an interesting trial.
I do not in any way minimise the distress felt by this cabin crew, but as this case will eventually show in court, different people located in close quarters can render completely different accounts of the same incident.
It will be an interesting trial.
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Having been in a similar situation...
Before I start I would also like to reiterate that as I was not onboard I cannot comment on this particular situation and expect that it will all be sorted out officially by those with ALL the information available.
I would like to clarify some of the many points raised and answer some of the questions asked.
I would also like to add the point of view of someone who has had to deal with this sort of incident before.
Paper Tiger - I think you'll find that any aircraft registered in the UK complies with the same CAA / JAR-Ops regulations including charters
I believe the following to be true (wrt UK reg a/c) please (and I know you will!) correct me if I'm wrong
It is an offense to be drunk on board an a/c
It is an offense to smoke on board an a/c
It is an offense to not comply with the instructions of the crew
Scroggs - CAA regs state that there is a min req of 1 cc member per 50 seats (seats not pax), as most 737s are under 150 seats this means there could have been as few as 3 crew on board.
with this ratio of 1 - 50 it can be an incredibly frightening situation if any size group takes on 'pack' or 'mob' mentality and all the relevant conflict management training in the world cannot prepare you for or predict individual reactions.
Crew are at the end of the day still human beings that are allowed to react as any other human is allowed to react when they feel threatened.
This said it is also true that their prime reason for being on board is for the safety of the pax
This is always upmost in their minds and if they believe that there is a threat to themselves, their pax or the a/c then they are to act accordingly.
If this is the case then they should (and thankfully did this time) receive the full backing of their management
You would expect them to receive the back up of the general flying public and the other pax on board
I have been involved in a similar incident and luckily received the full backing of all the other pax on board, who were offering to restrain pax for me, I was lucky and this was not required and I would have preferred not to take those pax up on their offers, but it was encouraging to know their support was there.
(The matter did go to court)
I feel sorry for the crew in this incident if they did not have that support
My recommendation to the crew would be to write a clear and comprehensive report of what happened (for themselves in addition to co procedures) as by the time it gets to court memories can fade. (allegedly those released on bail aren't due to return until March at the earliest)
This type of incident can be very traumatic and I sincerely wish all the crew well and hope that this does not diminish their view of what can be very enjoyable (hard) work
Please accept all offers of support and 'get back on the horse' as soon as you comfortably can.
Hostie
I would like to clarify some of the many points raised and answer some of the questions asked.
I would also like to add the point of view of someone who has had to deal with this sort of incident before.
Paper Tiger - I think you'll find that any aircraft registered in the UK complies with the same CAA / JAR-Ops regulations including charters
I believe the following to be true (wrt UK reg a/c) please (and I know you will!) correct me if I'm wrong
It is an offense to be drunk on board an a/c
It is an offense to smoke on board an a/c
It is an offense to not comply with the instructions of the crew
Scroggs - CAA regs state that there is a min req of 1 cc member per 50 seats (seats not pax), as most 737s are under 150 seats this means there could have been as few as 3 crew on board.
with this ratio of 1 - 50 it can be an incredibly frightening situation if any size group takes on 'pack' or 'mob' mentality and all the relevant conflict management training in the world cannot prepare you for or predict individual reactions.
Crew are at the end of the day still human beings that are allowed to react as any other human is allowed to react when they feel threatened.
This said it is also true that their prime reason for being on board is for the safety of the pax
This is always upmost in their minds and if they believe that there is a threat to themselves, their pax or the a/c then they are to act accordingly.
If this is the case then they should (and thankfully did this time) receive the full backing of their management
You would expect them to receive the back up of the general flying public and the other pax on board
I have been involved in a similar incident and luckily received the full backing of all the other pax on board, who were offering to restrain pax for me, I was lucky and this was not required and I would have preferred not to take those pax up on their offers, but it was encouraging to know their support was there.
(The matter did go to court)
I feel sorry for the crew in this incident if they did not have that support
My recommendation to the crew would be to write a clear and comprehensive report of what happened (for themselves in addition to co procedures) as by the time it gets to court memories can fade. (allegedly those released on bail aren't due to return until March at the earliest)
This type of incident can be very traumatic and I sincerely wish all the crew well and hope that this does not diminish their view of what can be very enjoyable (hard) work
Please accept all offers of support and 'get back on the horse' as soon as you comfortably can.
Hostie
Last edited by hostie; 16th Dec 2002 at 02:29.
As a passenger, with no involvement in aviation (other than a general interest) , when I get on an aircraft I am putting my life in the hands of professional, trained flight deck and cabin crew. If they feel that there is a situation onboard which warrants a diversion then I have to trust their opinion and experience. I would rather arrive late and safe than not get there at all.
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Im not sure if its been asked in the previous 13 pages of drivvle
but why the sudden dive into CWL - would a diversion to Gatwick
not of made the situation easier for Astraeus as this is base.
rt
but why the sudden dive into CWL - would a diversion to Gatwick
not of made the situation easier for Astraeus as this is base.
rt
Last edited by rupetime; 16th Dec 2002 at 09:16.
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rupetime
The flight was endangered and the requirement was to get on the ground as soon and as safely as possible. I do not know where it was geographically when the decision was made to divert but given the circumstances I would speculate that Cardiff was the nearest suitable aerodrome.
P.S. Sudden dive is rather an emotive phrase, are you a journo or learning to be one?
P.S. Sudden dive is rather an emotive phrase, are you a journo or learning to be one?
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Watch out folks,
Next time you have a problem, be prepared to be sued for 'flying the aircraft in a peculiar way', and after landing please send a copy of your ASR to your local MP to make sure they are in the loop.
CPB
Next time you have a problem, be prepared to be sued for 'flying the aircraft in a peculiar way', and after landing please send a copy of your ASR to your local MP to make sure they are in the loop.
CPB
Rule one in Aviation:-
IT'S BETTER TO BE DOWN HERE WISHING YOU WERE UP THERE, THAN UP THERE WISHING YOU WERE DOWN HERE!!!
If there is a problem on board and a strip of tarmac nearby, USE IT!!
Then present an extended middle finger to anyone who wants to second guess you...
IT'S BETTER TO BE DOWN HERE WISHING YOU WERE UP THERE, THAN UP THERE WISHING YOU WERE DOWN HERE!!!
If there is a problem on board and a strip of tarmac nearby, USE IT!!
Then present an extended middle finger to anyone who wants to second guess you...
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A thought while all you super humans are sitting back watching the VDU's and thinking of the fag and bar ahead.
What if the "armed sky marshal" was sitting in the back watching to scene unfold........?
What if the "armed sky marshal" was sitting in the back watching to scene unfold........?
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Just to reply to comments made about MP Julie Morgan asking for an enquiry into the incident .
Let me assure you this is not news to those of us who live in Cardiff.
For her not to ask for an enquiry is a news story!!!
As for the most suitable Aerodrome, a number of factors would be taken into account, but many of the Astraeus pilots are familiar with Cardiff as they have recently trained here, and there have also been recent charter flights from the Airport. When you are dealing with an emergency situation, a familiar airfield and approach make excellent sense. It takes some of the pressure away from the crew in a tense situation
Let me assure you this is not news to those of us who live in Cardiff.
For her not to ask for an enquiry is a news story!!!
As for the most suitable Aerodrome, a number of factors would be taken into account, but many of the Astraeus pilots are familiar with Cardiff as they have recently trained here, and there have also been recent charter flights from the Airport. When you are dealing with an emergency situation, a familiar airfield and approach make excellent sense. It takes some of the pressure away from the crew in a tense situation
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A Sky Marshall (Aircraft Bouncer) would at least have taken the flak off the Flight Attendants on the aircraft, probably have been the one assaulted and both sides of the fence involved would probably quite happily 'Hang this Person Out to dry'. Maybe they are not a bad idea after all.
May I add to what Grantm has said
Whilst I do not agree with a lot of what MOL has stated, in my opinion he is putting forward a different point of view which he has chosen to stand by and defend. I can not see where his opinion is offensive in anyway, it just differs from the majority, which does not make him wrong. If we only had one point of view the forum would make very pretty reading and everybody could slap each others back and say how good the aviation industry is.
I have also listened to this subject being debated on the radio where general members of the public have viewed their opinion and MOL is not alone in his line of thinking.
May I add to what Grantm has said
Whilst I do not agree with a lot of what MOL has stated, in my opinion he is putting forward a different point of view which he has chosen to stand by and defend. I can not see where his opinion is offensive in anyway, it just differs from the majority, which does not make him wrong. If we only had one point of view the forum would make very pretty reading and everybody could slap each others back and say how good the aviation industry is.
I have also listened to this subject being debated on the radio where general members of the public have viewed their opinion and MOL is not alone in his line of thinking.
Beady Eye
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Yes MOL is not alone in his line of thinking amongst general members of the public who have no conception of the requirements nor the responsibilities of captaining an aircraft. It is that lack of comprehension and understanding which, I believe, has upset the professionals on this website, not to mention the unwarranted attacks on the integrity and intentions of all flight crew.
Interesting to note that South Wales police are travelling up to Scotland to conduct more interviews with passengers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2581099.stm
Interesting to note that South Wales police are travelling up to Scotland to conduct more interviews with passengers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2581099.stm
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I don't think MOL is actually presenting an alternative "view" as much as printing and quoting selective newspaper reports. It is apparent that he is not aircrew, and his views will be judged accordingly I suppose.
I wonder did he see the article in the Times this morning , where the Police Chief in South Wales is quoted as saying the individuals bailed on Saturday may face up to 10 years in jail, and further arrests were likely.
I suppose that also is an alternative view.
I also understand that the police around Cardiff have a plan which they put into place anytime someone sayt the words "Football Fans" and "Disturbance" in the same sentence. Comes from some experience with Cardiff FC and various hostings of the FA cup and Worthington cup. But I have no doubt they will explain this to a certain MP.
I wonder did he see the article in the Times this morning , where the Police Chief in South Wales is quoted as saying the individuals bailed on Saturday may face up to 10 years in jail, and further arrests were likely.
I suppose that also is an alternative view.
I also understand that the police around Cardiff have a plan which they put into place anytime someone sayt the words "Football Fans" and "Disturbance" in the same sentence. Comes from some experience with Cardiff FC and various hostings of the FA cup and Worthington cup. But I have no doubt they will explain this to a certain MP.
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Let us all ignore MOL and his views.
The pilot saw the safety of his aircraft compromised, and he decided to get it down first and ask questions later. That is the right thing to do.
JH and team....I truly hope you will "throw the book at them" if you are given the opportunity. There are an increasing number of 'disruptive passenger' reports, and one of these days 'mob mentality' will truly get out of control with disastrous consequences. In a case like this the perpetrators must be hung out to dry to set an example for others.
Regards,
In trim.
The pilot saw the safety of his aircraft compromised, and he decided to get it down first and ask questions later. That is the right thing to do.
JH and team....I truly hope you will "throw the book at them" if you are given the opportunity. There are an increasing number of 'disruptive passenger' reports, and one of these days 'mob mentality' will truly get out of control with disastrous consequences. In a case like this the perpetrators must be hung out to dry to set an example for others.
Regards,
In trim.
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Nows theres interesting....what makes you think that South Wales police command any more respect than an aircrew when it comes to cover ups and justifing their "gut feeling" actions?
Why not make a note in your diaries to re-address this subject in three months time when passengers-v-crew stories are verified one way or another.
Why not make a note in your diaries to re-address this subject in three months time when passengers-v-crew stories are verified one way or another.
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(from the BBC link)
Hmm, version 3 of the PA. The spin seems to be working.
the captain made an announcement that the behaviour at the front of the aircraft would not be tolerated.
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IN TRIMS attitude typifies what MOL & myself are trying to get over to you, "atitude" that all passengers should be treated as trash unless you are crew related and blagging a seat in First Class.
Its a two way process and how about the "trash" demanding at check in to see a "breath test" - crews logbooks & medicals, aircraft maintenance records etc. before boarding the a/c
Its a two way process and how about the "trash" demanding at check in to see a "breath test" - crews logbooks & medicals, aircraft maintenance records etc. before boarding the a/c
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The pilot saw the safety of his aircraft compromised, and he decided to get it down first and ask questions later. That is the right thing to do.
JH and team....I truly hope you will "throw the book at them" if you are given the opportunity.
However, if the culprit had not been identified, and if, as the passengers accounts claim, they were told that they would be kept on the plane at Glasgow (until the police arrived?) unless someone owned up, then like others on this board I would have a problem with that.
It would be nice then to know what was said to the passengers. I appreciate though that for one reason or another this may not be possible.
Perhaps though I could ask this question which might serve just as well - was the person identified as smoking handed over to the police on arrival at Cardiff?