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Selfishness in the extreme?!

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Selfishness in the extreme?!

Old 17th Nov 2002, 18:19
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Selfishness in the extreme?!

For many years ALPA has fought for, and successfully achieved, "scope clauses" in their collective bargaining agreements, which limit the number of regional jets their respective regional partners can operate..usually based on the fleet numbers operated by the major carrier..now that these same major airline pilots are being furloughed in droves, they turn around and are trying to force the same regional partner airlines to hire them while on furlough, without forcing them to resign their seniority at the major...so in effect limiting the jet flying opportunities for the regional partners, but at the same time...flowing back and taking away what jobs the regionals have been allowed to have!!! Both pilot groups are members of the same union...ALPO (A)....when does greed end...and reality take over...these major airline pilots fought tooth and nail flow-through agreements that would have allowed regional pilots to advance during the good times, but now these same major airline pilots are fighting for flow-back agreements when the regionals are doing good, and the majors are laying off....hypocrisy at it's best...time for a revolt amongst regional pilots...see the website regional jet defense league....amazing
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Old 17th Nov 2002, 20:26
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Well Ironbutt57, you have to admit that the ALPA guys have not ever changed their collective spots...which are, scr@w the regional guys, we want it ALL.
Suspect it will not change, EVER.
We have three projects in formation at the moment, and ALPA guys are NOT welcome at ANY of them.
And, I have the say so.
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Old 17th Nov 2002, 20:33
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You have to look at individual airlines here. In my case the pilots wanted the company to buy the regional operators and add the regional pilots to the seniority list. Our pilots thought that job security would be better if the pilot groups were unified and had common goals. It was the company that refused to do this because they thought the regionals would be cheaper to use by keeping them independent. Since that time I am very well aware that there has been no great move to prevent the transfer of pilots from regionals to our mainline operation. I have flown with many ex-regional pilots now on our payroll. The only curious thing I have noticed is that relatively few regional pilots came from our own associate regional carriers. The cynical guess is that our company has a secret agreement with our regional carriers that we will not "poach" their pilots and increase their training costs.

I understand that some of the confrontations have been very badly handled. However, do not paint all pilot groups with the same brush. Internal battles in these trying times only really help the people who see advantage in a feuding pilot group.

Of far more significance as far as the career of regional pilots is concerned is the reduction in the size of mainline fleets. At one time, flow through from the regionals to the mainlines was possible. Nowadays, with fleet size reductions and furloughees waiting to be recalled it could be many years before regional pilots see the majors hiring. Even when hiring begins it could be under conditions which are not as attractive as they used to be.

Many new pilots saw the regionals as a way to the big pay check. Now the big pay check may not be so big and the RJ could be a career pinnacle.

Just posted this a little after 411 made his post so am editing.
Frankly 411 anyone who works with you will have a miserable career being told how they cannot meet the level of perfection you demonstrate and require. You sound like a mico-managing, interfering, arrogant know-it-all who would drive anybody with an ounce of intelligence and self-respect into insanity in a month. Just thought I would let you know - cheers!

Edited again to add the word "arrogant"
 
Old 17th Nov 2002, 21:13
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Red face

Don't waste your breath on replying to 411A, BOING - he is the USA's version of The Guvnor, a wannabe airline manager who dreams aloud here on PPRuNe. With the exception that he (411 had some flying experience as a contract pilot a very long time ago)...............and is about TWICE The Guvnor's age.

We have three projects in formation at the moment,
Sure you do, 411 Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner!!
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 01:50
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You left out two words, BOING....cost effective.

Hmm, the good Kaptin left out cocktail hour

Last edited by 411A; 18th Nov 2002 at 05:54.
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 02:16
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Kaptin M, et alia -- my 2p:

411a is but one more of the colorful characters in the pprune zoo. His intellectually predatory attitude is a right PITA, but he seems more credible to me than the guv ever was.

Though I have not hung on his every word, my impression from the flow of it is that 411a really holds himself to the standards he spouts off about. He is probably not so much in the operational flow as he would like to be - whether through age, health, or other circumstances - and he takes full advantage of the anonymity of pprune to vent his curmugeonly thoughts where they can provoke occasional interesting conversation and possibly have some constructive effect - or bring meaningful feedback.

A creature one finds in the deserts of Arizona is the Gila Monster, a cat-size venomous lizard that is said, by local wags, to have such a poisonous bite because it never excretes - it merely saves up the poisons to use for other business.

FWIW
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 13:29
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Inside the flying world are pilots and pilots, so to speak.

Those that get up, day after day, and push up throttles - amassing 20 or even 30 thousand hours in a career that teaches humility, respect for the profession and an ingrained sympathy for any other professional also grinding it out, day by day.

Then the other brand - those that get into training and management early, punching a clock 8 to 5, shuffling paper and riding herd on their inferiors, taking the odd out-and-back (in sunny weather) to get their minimum landings, hopping from carrier to carrier, climbing the ziggurat until they reach Director of Ops or even higher.

Nothing wrong with either type, but by their fruits ye shall know them. Anyone who viscerally, reflexively, immediately spouts off opinions invariably critical of line pilots and unions most certainly would be from type 2.
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 14:11
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You left out a third group Huck, those relatively well off ALPA /APA guys at major carriers who look down...way down, at regional carrier pilots'...until they want to steal their jobs. Not only that, but suspect that they would want super seniority too, just because they came from the "parent" carrier.
I have absolutely NO time for these...and suspect that the regionals don't either.
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 15:43
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I've said this before here- what airline beancounters have to fear is unified, motivated pilots, joined in a stong and vibrant national union, calling in unity for one seniority list from the right seat of the BE-1900 to the left of the B-747.

Which is to say, they have little to fear.

(Apologies to W.F. Buckley for flagrant plagiarism).

BTW, I was at ground zero of the RJDC dispute, holding an MEC office (o.k., just safety Chair) when we were wholly bought out by big D. I have flown with some of the RJDC organizers, and know several more. These are the VERY SAME bunch that argued against pursuing One List with our Widget brethren. I would go to these meetings and argue that I would be glad to have seniority # 10,001 - only to be hooted down and told we should hold out for date of hire. RJDC members are "lifers" at the regionals - nothing wrong with that, but pokes a big finger in the eye of any unified strategies with mainline brethren (see paragraph 1, above).

It is going to be a medieval bloodbath in the years to come. I'm glad I'm watching from the freighter sidelines....
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 20:10
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ironbutt57

Totally agree with your sentiments.
That web site ' Regional Jet Defence League' ..... couldn't find it !
Whats the URL or could you post with hyperlink pls.
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Old 18th Nov 2002, 23:12
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Try:

http://www.rjdefense.com

for some of these morons.....

They can operate any size airplane they want....

Just they have to provide their own airline reservations, fuel purchasing, interline agreements, catering, and in the case of the United Express carriers, paying for their own training instead of United doing it....
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Old 19th Nov 2002, 01:02
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Interesting perspectives but most comments barely scratch the surface of the many issues/disputes involved and some challenge veracity.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as the regional jet defense league. One gentleman mentions the RJDC, the correct acronym but then claims to have flown with "some of the organizers" and to have been safety chairman of the airline from whence they come. While I would prefer to avoid more controversy than already exists, those statements do not appear to be accurate.

The original organizers of the RJDC (Regional Jet Defense Coalition) are all Comair pilots that are still employed by Comair. The Comair safety chairman (at the time of the organization - not one of the litigants) is still safety chairman and still employed by Comair. Obviously they could not be the same person. Additionally, none of the original organizers of the RJDC have ever argued against pursuing one list "with our Widget bretheren" and could not be accurately described as "the very same bunch" of anything. It appears that the "view" from some cockpit windows is somewhat different from what one sees through other cockpit windows. Perhaps the anti-ice doesn't function on that side. Oh well, diversity is perhaps one of the piloting profession's best assets.

The RJDC does have a web site. The url is rjdefense.com If interested, the organizers are listed by name on that web site. The organization represents a large group of Comair pilots and some ASA pilots who allege that the ALPA has violated its Duty of Fair Representation (a requirement of US Labor Law) and fails to represent the interests of pilots at Comair and ASA. A lawsuit (also available on the web site) has been filed against the union (by the Comair pilots) seeking redress and a stay of the challenged ALPA activities.

The litigation is in the preliminary stages and there has been no decision of the courts as yet. At present, ALPA's motion to dismiss is before the court and should be heard shortly. If the court should deny ALPA's montion, the case will proceed to trial.

The web site contains detailed information about the law suit and in-depth outlines of the RJDC's position on relevant issues. Lots of material that will take time to read. However, those who elect to read it will get a good view of the plaintiff's perspective.

Enjoy.

(edited to correct spelling errors -- hopefully)

Last edited by surplus1; 19th Nov 2002 at 01:33.
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Old 19th Nov 2002, 03:13
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Clearly, with the conflicting demands of the various pilot groups ALPA , as a policy provider, has reached the end of the line. It is pointless to have an organisation which is continuously being sued by one or other of its membership groups. Perhaps ALPA should, in some way, back away from such items as seniority list and merger policy etc. ALPA still has a tremendous role to play in the areas of ATC coordination, safety and related non-contentious areas.

Somehow I cannot see that this is going to prevent rancour and law suits between pilot groups (this is America after all) but at least ALPA would not be spending vast amounts of money defending itself against events over which it really has no control.

The real shame involved in all of the internal battles within the pilot group is that almost every action causes a diminuation of this career that we all seek. There really is no point in fighting for your own advancement when by doing that you destroy the value of the job you were trying to obtain.
 
Old 19th Nov 2002, 03:14
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I was at ASA, my name is Steve G., and I stand by my recollections of the spring-summer of 1999.

The pilots I "flew with" were the ASA litigants you speak of. If they were not organizers then I stand corrected. The ones I "knew" were at Comair. The RJDC was organized after I left.

I certainly did not claim to be Mitch. I don't know him well, but I have been to a few meetings with him.

I left, in fact, BECAUSE of this attitude I saw coming. This circular firing squad that will not help anyone. We had a window then, right after the buyout, when a common strategy could have been achieved. But the leadership sought other directions. I left to go fly ACMI at Gemini rather than sit around and wait for the whipsawing to begin.

I put alot of time and effort into that company and that MEC, and my opinions count at least a little, though you can feel free to disagree. Ask John B. or Ken C. about me. And say hello To Dan F. - he and I argued about this very same subject in the spring of 1999 in Orlando during the DAL Safety weekend.

Last edited by Huck; 19th Nov 2002 at 14:09.
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Old 19th Nov 2002, 11:47
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Mirror

Almost a mirror of what went on at SWISS! The Swissair pilot corps would have nothing to do with little sister Crossair's pilots! Good grief no: they were too lowly flying those little machines over there in Basle! Oh, then came BANKRUPTCY: the great equaliser of all human beings.

Now that Crossair has bought what was left of the Swiss Precision Machine, the ex-Swissair lot, not only want their airline, but they're hell-bent on taking it down the same route that they took their own!?
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Old 19th Nov 2002, 16:17
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Thanks 126.9...you have to have lived it to be sick of it...from 1981 when ALPO wouldn't even organize us (nothing for us to offer) 1983 Continental strike...low coffers, possible scabs...all of a sudden ALPO interested in "commuters"...flow up agreements? when we all became "feeders" with the same paint jobs...you must be kidding! exception at Continental...only one in the industry for years...later Midway, then finally American.. now all of a sudden.....let's unify!!!!! transparent or what?...think the Delta connection pilots should tell them to take a hike...the Delta MEC didn't even have the courtesy to approach the connection MEC with the idea...amazing!!!!!
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Old 20th Nov 2002, 16:19
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Ironbutt, please slow down and speak clearly. I am missing your point.

Remember the commuter evolution was a new experience for ALPA and the major airlines and as such it took a while for these people to adjust and nobody denies mistakes were made. If you wish to turn this situation into an ongoing feud on the lines of Serbia or Ireland it is up to you. It would seem, however, that solving the problem is more important than tearing the, admittedly flawed, system apart.

Here is your real long term problem. The majors, who were the career target of many commuter pilots are now going to be off limits for several years, at least, because of cut-backs and furloughs. Many of the present generation commuter pilots are going to be TOO OLD to be hired by the majors even if and when they do start rehiring. RJs are going to get bigger and the pressure is going to be applied to keep these larger aircraft with commuter operations. The majors do not want the large RJs in their fleets because of their own high operating cost structures. Therefore, as a commuter pilot you will be flying a 737 capacity aircraft for an RJ paycheck and work conditions. Your long term problem is going to be finding a way to turn your commuter career, which you may be locked into, into a career as good as the one you once had a chance of achieving. You will only do this by using the combined strength of the pilot group, you will not do it on your own.

Work within the system. Get elected. Change the policies. What ALPA did was to assume a role as seniority arbitrator and contract ratifier that was a sham even in the good times. ALPA never has had power to enforce any agreement between pilot groups, only ratify them, so it is no good yelling at ALPA when things happen you do not like.

Your present gripe seems to be that certain mainline pilot groups are trying to get their surplus pilots transferred to their airlines regional carriers. What do you seriously expect them to do? If you have a problem with that rather than ranting here organise your own group in defence. If you look at the situation you will realize you have powerful allies. If the major airline involved actually paid for the aircraft you are flying you may not have much of an argument. If your company is truly independent you should be OK. Many commuters grew because of large cash injections from the parent airline. If that is the case the major pilots have an argument which is "Our work paid for the RJs in the first place,. We did not complain when our money was used to buy your aircraft so why should you complain that we now claim the right to fly the aircraft we own?".

This may strike you as unfair but it also stikes a major airline pilot as unfair the his career is terminated, full stop, gone whilst pilots in your position continue to fly aircraft that were purchased by his company. I am not taking sides, just providing a viewpoint.
 
Old 20th Nov 2002, 16:41
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All view points accepted....go to the regional jet defense league website and read it for yourself....
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Old 20th Nov 2002, 19:37
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I read it. It is just an extreme example of the other side of the argument. Commuter guys want to control everything, major airline guys want to control everything, take your pick. Tear each others throats out, sue everybody! You know what? The only people who will win will be the airline corporations and passengers who get another 50 cents off the price of their ticket.

Somebody is always in the firing line when major economic and business changes take place. It was the first airline pilots at the creation of ALPA. It was the skilled assembly workers when the auto. industry introduced production lines. It is now the present large airline pilots and the regional pilots as the airline industry lurches into reorganisation. It is the way of these things. It is no fun being on the point. As the Sergeant said in the movie "Zulu" when asked by a soldier why the bad things were happening to them, his reply was "because your here Son, and nobody else is".

The scope clauses made sense to major airline pilot groups so they were put into contracts many years ago. They scope clauses were not specifically targeted at RJ operations, they were a universal protection. Management agreed to those scope clauses. They are a legal document in as much as any contract is a legal document. You cannot criticise major pilots for wishing to apply a contract provision for which they bargained.


For the last few years the commuter pilots have enjoyed life as they seemed to be part of an endless expansion. They were the first to rejoice over their good fortune. Expansion, jets, life is great! Now reality has set in. Turns out the good times they enjoyed were based on the losses of their large airline brethren. The major's pilots were losing losing jobs because those jobs were fuelling the expansion of the commuters.

What the commuter pilots are calling "stealing their jobs" the major pilots see as "getting their jobs back". We are caught in the vortex of change. Somebody is going to get hurt, hopefully only temporarily. Somebody explain to me the practical difference between a major pilot being furloughed because his job was moved to the commuters and a commuter pilot furloughed because a major pilot down bid into his job. Somebody will be furloughed. How would you like to decide the matter. Would you use years of airline flying? ALPA seniority? Number of dependents? Number of ex-wives (same thing!). My only test would be if the commuter was genuinely independent of the major the commuter pilot wins. If the commuter was established by help from the major airline the major airline pilot wins. Grey areas I know.

Otherwise, welcome to the wonderful World of Aviation.
 
Old 20th Nov 2002, 19:44
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Hmmm, and there we have it folks, the major carrier guys, who now find themselves on the street (due in part to the majors' high cost structure, in no small part due to excessive pilot salaries) NOW want to move into the regional jets, and force OUT the very guys that have made regional airlines the success that they are today.
Selfishness in the extreme...just like the title says......

Hope the regional guys/gals are paying attention.
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